Originally posted by jodah@KDR81 @ history_geekregarding "Latest Harem Scandal " & saying stories are connected with Turkish Harem of Ottoman is not fair & not true ..
friends you should be very carfeul about sharing your views as most of the forum members belive on each & every fact you provide or i should say every comment & i'm sure now reading your these commentskamal/KDR81 ''Secondly, the thing you were told by the guide is something which was a practice among Rulers of the Ottoman empire... but NOT Akbar ...Smile( Again I state here, TE was NOT so Gaya -Guzraa...)''
history_geek / abhay ''Seems that guide was impressed by the paintings from the Turkish Harem of Ottoman Sultans and the contemporary records. And tried to apply the same LOGICCensored with Akbar'' yes i think after reading your above these comments now every IF member is imagining the turkey sultans are doing nothing except chasing womens in Ottoman Harem
Women_in_the_Ottoman_EmpireOne of the most enduring images of Ottoman women's segregation is the harem.
The exotic anderoticized image of the harem is a Western obsession that overlooks the much more complexfunctioning of this important institution.
Leslie Peirce, in The Imperial Harem( 1993 ), one of the mostimportant works on gender in the premodern period,
has challenged the traditional image of Ottomanwoman as cloistered and therefore powerless. She shows that as the sultans retreated into their haremsin the late sixteenth century, their mothers (the valide sultans) and other royal women became increasingly powerful and influential. Contemporary commentators (and subsequent historians) decriedthis influence as a destabilizing innovation and called this period the "sultanate of the Women." The reality, Peirce shows, is a great deal more complex. Women of the harem used their wealth to patronizeimportant public building projects and charitable works. Because of their proximity to and influence on sultan they also played an active role in important political matters. For example, Nurbanu, favoriteof Selim II, was key in bringing about the peace that concluded the War of the Holy League in 1573 .Instead of rendering them powerless, their cloistered status in the harem enabled royal women toexercise great influence on the political life of the early-modern Ottoman state
check the following link for details https://www.academia.edu/193378/Women_in_the_Ottoman_Empire& many greek painter from bazintine too worked in the Ottoman empire why i am saying this google greek paintings you will know the answers
here are some books about Usmania Empire / Ottoman empireAldola al Usmania by Dr Muhammad muhammad Alsalabi
The Ottoman Empire: the history and civilization - Volume 2
here is a link for a overview on Usmania Empire/ Otoman empire about economy,inventions,medicine,law,military etchttps://voices.yahoo.com/a-brief-history-ottoman-empire-5902534.htmli read orignal illustrations of Akbarnama along with farsi they used turkish & arabic words too & Padsha,Sultan titles were used in Ottoman empire & Ottoman empire was established in 1299 now 600 years old
kindly edit & refrain discussing about other Empires on such sensitive issues
@mandyg well said agree with your comments
Proceeding here as the TM has no qualms.Note :::
This response contains views of KDR81+others, for both the comments on previous page.!.
My Dear Friend,
It seems the comments have been grossly MisUnderstooD, as neither i nor Kamal di had any such intention. Anyways, i am READY for YET
AnotheR ClarificatioN😕 on the comment which made you feel so. BTW, this explanation is 3-4 TIMES
LONGER than the comment due to which i am writing this.🥱
Only one LINE comment was made, and that was
to EXPLAIN WHY guides confuse and give WRONG picture.
Following was the comment i "MADE":
"Seems that guide was impressed by the
paintings from the Turkish Harem of Ottoman Sultans and the
contemporary records. And tried to apply the same LOGIC🤬 with Akbar. If i visit in future i will FIRST ask these
GUIDES who told them this
nonsense.!.
"I ONLY mentioned 2 things->
1. Paintings
2. Some accounts
And, if anyone here reads this "
CAREFULLY", it will be clear that the meaning was to convey that the guide was influenced by such pictures or some records.😕 And,
MANY of these paintings have been a product of
exaggerated imagination of some so-called "scholars". (I hope NOW this comment does NOT invites another need for clarification.😕 But this is a FACT.!. )
Did we ever mention that ALL/MANY rulers of the aforesaid CLAN followed "that" practice.?.😊
Also,
DELIBERATELY we DID NOT mention this
powerful, well-established and reputed Empire of the West n Central Asian history. This was mentioned ONLY to make CLEAR that such things were for some of them but
"NOT" all the rulers of other dynasties as well. 😊
I agree with your views ABOVE in blue. Thank YOU for mentioning this here. The words above in
Red and
Brown are
EXACTLY what i ALSO write many times, and my views were NOT influenced by any such author, but i
inferred this "MYSELF" after reading a variety of contemporary accounts.
And, this is what i have been mentioning in many of my comments since i joined this forum.😊
To
FALSIFY the claim about women in 16th centuries and other contemporary times we OURSELVES started a
New ThreaD, named -->>
Nausenas n Nazranas - DEDUCTION - From Akbarnama If anyone has missed this thread then see it. As this thread WAS started for
2 MAIN purposes::
1. Authenticity of Documents
2. About highlighting the power which women of aristocracy shared in those times. 😊
And, here we have ASKED opinions from members how do they feel about the women of those times. Many interesting comments have been put up.
So, my(or Kamal di's) views were
NOT as you have interpreted them. I can give
MANY MANY links from IF where members have questioned this fact about women and we have given our views there.
*******************************************************************************
Since you have mentioned some sources, let me also, add to your list, and these are from
as early accounts as possible, not from the Later Ones.😊 I am just
supporting your point that women held important positions in Ottoman Empire AS WELL .
Piri Hanem,
Mihri Hatoon,
Queen Hurrem are the
best known ladies other than those mentioned by you. The accounts of
Faizullah(17th Century) present a good description about the Ottoman society. 😊 I very well understand this.
But the issue under consideration DID NOT involve Queens, but some other issues.😊T
he main point which remained unnoticed here is the fact that, we DID NOT MEAN ROYAL WOMEN of the mentioned empire... the practice was specifically exercised on the SLAVE-GIRLS and Baandhis..
Need NOT go into the Details..because we really do not want anyone's sentiment to be hurt...
😕
Hence , the controversy caused was totally un-called for...😕
As the bloodline of the empire was NEVER implied...🥱*******************************************************************************
Coming back to topic, Here, I was making clear
WHY such issues occurs, because when ever you search InterneT the same problem crops UP. Internet, at times, provides a
VERY BAD and
IN-correct picture on
MANY RULERS.
Emperor Akbar is one of them.😕
WE have
ALWAYS laid stress on READING from
as EARLY and as MANY sources as POSSIBLE.😕🥱😕 Then, interpret ourselves rather than BELIEVING any one.
And, we have always stood up against the WRONG info on Internet, be it for
"ANY CLAN".😊 Because we know these views are very much INCORRECT and almost in every other comment i try to explain this particular issue only.😕
Hope "TODAY" PeoplE UnderstanD WHY we say InterneT is not reliable ALWAYS. 😕*******************************************************************************
For your points @PINK
Dear,
I Do NOT feel members believe EACH and EVERY comment we write.😊 We have been subjected to
LOT of scrutiny and
almost every comment of ours is verified. Sometimes even views of members are posted on those threads, after they verify our claims.
YOU may NOT believe but the moment any comment is posted on my thread.
The first thing is
minimum 10 PMs asking for explanations despite giving references whenever it's possible.😕🥱😕
I very much know UNDER how much scrutiny our threads are, ranging from Twitter to FB and what NOT. I can't write EVERYTHING here..!..😊😉
So, i feel people here are VERY MUCH aware of what to believe. And,
"MAJORITY" of members are mature enough to interpret our comments correctly. 😊 They themselves verify. Many are silent members here, who do agree and share similar events with US.
*******************************************************************************
For your points @greenThough, i do not know how Akbarnama came here, but some how i understand.😊 But since it has been mentioned then i am adding one more point here also.
All the EVENTS of Akbar's time-period are not mentioned in Akbarnama. Also, since Akbarnama is the official chronicle of Emperor Akbar's period, that's why some
"BITTER" anecdotes from his times are NOT mentioned in this.😊
I myself exercise maximum restraint from mentioning some incidents from HISTORY
as much as possible, as it is NOT always sweet to read. 😊
And, hence EVEN after being asked some questions repeatedly WE do not like to discuss them. We very well, understand the sentiments. 😊
The reason is SIMPLE. Take the present case. The comment was written ONLY to clear the air around Akbar and to tell why guides say so, and this was mis-understood.😕 We were discussing guides, as they are mis-informed.
For them Harem was only a place for fulfilling "certain"😕 needs of Emperor ONLY. They do NOT know(or do not WANT to know) that it was a well-developed institution, and as complex as the many affairs of Sultanate. It was the place of residence of Royal ladies, wives, mothers, sisters, etc.
The thing you have mentioned has been already mentioned on my thread. I know
HOW ZILCH IS THE DEFINITION OF HAREM IN THE BOOK OF SOME so-called scholars.🥱
Re-quoting again.
*******************************************************************************
We have ourselves PERSONALLY at times corrected many MIS-Conceptions.
If i remember correctly once i had a brief talk with you only about wives of Emperor Akbar.😊
Further see this link, if you need a better idea of our thinking.
I tried giving a different picture of Harem and i have OPENLY written about the issue of how modern and later authors present info with wrong ideas here.😊 Even i mentioned about a thread started for similar point.!., provided ANYONE understood the meaning why was it started.?.😊
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/101736216We are very much careful in our thoughts. And, are NOT influenced by any such Wrong Info.😊
*******************************************************************************
Finally, after answering ALMOST each and every concern in your comment.
The FINAL ISSUE.
The practice due to which this discussion started was known to exist in the aforesaid Empire. Though, we DO
NOT want to write name of any ruler here.😊
Again i repeat, this was to
REFUTE claims of MANY people who put Emperor
Akbar alongside
Muhammed Shah 'Rangila', the
ruler we talked of earlier, or
Mubarak Khilji to name a few. For more details, for Mubarak Khilji - his own court historian
Barni wrote the book -
Tarikh-i-Firoz-Shahi. You may also check autobiography of Babur itself. 🤓
Certain
strange practices were prevalent in
varied gradations
BUT not ALL practiced it. 😊
We have
read about these practices and
won't like to indulge in them on IF.😕
*******************************************************************************
BTW,
No one discussed S** life of anyone here as said by someone..!!..😕
This has been cleared on previous page by a member also.
It's strange why ONLY such thing caught the attention..?..
Do not know how this ISSUE or THOUGHT came here..??..
Interestingly few days back a similar thread was made which talked of
Emperor Akbar's Hindu Wife in a HIGHLY degrading manner, along with the Emperor..
MUCH MORE and HIGHLY INFLAMATORY remarks are made there and they
DO DEFINITELY HURT. 😕
Even if they POST such info it's fine. But it should be in limits and CORRECT..!!..😕
Then why wasn't the comment put up there as it was said on previous page on this thread. ?❓?
(This statement is NOT for you jodah but others.!.)
If
required i am ready to put up the links of some
blocked threads from IF itself .!.
*******************************************************************************
Concluding by a REMARK which Kamal Di also wrote above. The standards should be same for all. Here the comments which i and Kamal Di made were
quite simple and factual and
DID NOT talk of any controversial issue. 😊 We do know about magnified versions.!.😊
This was
NOT to hurt any friend here. Just to clarify.😊
Regards
Abhay
PS -
1. The fact in the comment was
NOT wrong, provided you get the essence. 😊
2. And, yes BEFORE posting such info we
DO VERIFY our sources.
3. But, the standards should be same
NO matter whichever clan is discussed. 😊
4. Hope your concerns are addressed. And, no IF member WILL THINK so as you feared.😊5. I have written the
BEST possible response🥱i could, to ward off any DOUBT.!!..
6.
Finally, to WRAP up this DISCUSSION, here is something for people if they are more interested.
I feel these will be the best possible sources for SELF research. 😊Link For
how to ACCESS AUTHENTIC Ottoman State Archives is HERE:
https://hazine.info/2013/10/10/basbakanlik-arsivi/These are the archives of the
Prime Minister's Office of Turkey-Basbakanlik Osmanli Arsivi.😊 These contains the documents from 16th century. Some of them are in
digitized format.
And, hence they
may be accessible.
Email: osmanli@basbakanlik.gov.tr
Some contact numbers are also given on this page. Check the link for for DETAILS.
I wish, someday, such AUTHENTIC well-researched archives could be put up by the Indian Government also. 🤓 Then, so many mis-conceptions would be removed about many of our historical personalities.😕 Though till then, confusions are bound to occur. 😊
Rest points have been covered in the comment above of KDR81.😊
@TMWe have tried to write as much LESS as possible & won't write more on this topic UNLESS
urgently called for. 😕
BTW, Due to all this, i forgot something. Thanx for this beautiful thread and these pictures.😊
Edited by history_geek - 11 years ago
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