Nausena-Pt5-JA not Fiction-AKBAR-a TITLE?.P27+ MAHACHUCHAK BEGUM - P30

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Tabassum

@Arieltabi

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#51

Hey Abhay. Amazing post. But I can't see all the pics. Maybe because I m from mobile that's why. 😭 .About womans role in that era. To me it looks like both Akbar and MUZ were ahead of their age. Taking part in DEK and DEA. Handling her own business. She really was a very strong woman. I really want to see a strong Jo like that in the show.

Btw Abhay I wanted to ask u some question for some times. Finally got chance. Pls answer them.

1. We read in school that the "Bangla year/calender" and Bangla new year celebration (Noboborsho) which is a big festival in my country was started by Akbar. Can U pls give me some detail info about this. When did he started it?Why?

2.Did Bakshi and Sharif had any children. When did Sharif died?How?

3.When did Jalal got the title "Akbar" and why? When did Akbar gave MUZ the title "Wall-e-nimat" and why?

4.Abhay u mentioned in one post Shahjahan was brought up by Rukku. And Ruk didnt let him meet her mother Jagat Gosain? Why? Was Ruks really like the show? How was Ruk and Jo's relation?

5.I saw a promo of Maharana Pratap in sony. They showed a promo of a war between Pratap and Akbar. And both at their young age. Did they ever fought face to face?
6.Abhay pls make a post about "Navratnas"

Edited by Arieltabi - 11 years ago

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Abhay

@history_geek

Rocker

+ 5

Posted: 11 years ago

#52

Originally posted by: skanda12
Abhay:

First of all hats off to you for so beautifully collecting and presenting this information! I loved it!👏

Regarding your 4 questions, this is my view:

1. The importance of women in that era: I think from what I see (from you research and from the serial irself etc), the Mughals were more advanced in using women as a whole in political positions and in their daily life and celebrations. The corresponding Hindu kingdoms, they have had a few strong examples of women in power, but I am talking of women as a whole.

The average Mughal women seems to have had more liberty than the average Hindu ruled kingdom women.

But there again we may have to check if women were used as "lucky charms:" or as partners and companions of standing and with brains. Some cultures, for example, used women as "lucky charms" I am told ... which actually denigrates their status, because although they are present everywhere, their value is perceived to be less about their "brains" being valuable and they are used more as figureheads for celebrations, events, pre-war prayers etc.

I would use "brains" as a yaerdstick of judgement. If women were valued for their brains and thinking etc then they were well used. If they were used more for their "beauty" or "luck" etc. then I would think they were ill-used.

2. The miniature paintings of the Mughals definitely pack more detail than the minitaures of the other kigdoms of the West that I have seen so far. Also here the King seems the subject more, whereas in the Western areai miniatures, Krishna and the Gods and their life depictions seems to be more widespread.

3. I am aghast that we have allowed the British to not only take away our treasures but also to distribute them to all and sundry later. This is abominable. Whay can I say?😡

4. If I am not mistaken the Mughals descended from the Genghis Khan ancestry, which may be the reason why they had a lot of land-locked kingdom management expertise, but the Navy was a relatively newish thing for them perhaps after conquering vast parts of India especially the east and west coasts. But they must have developed skills because it was later given somewhere that Jodha herself was given control of the ships that carried Haj pilgrims. Is this correct? If Jodha, a lady, were given control of ships, then the ship and seafaring must have been more prevalent for Navy use, because only after Navy requirements would they have built more ships for trade or pilgrimages etc?

Hope my guesses have been more or less accurate?

Thnx Mansi,
All point -> Well Said..!!!..👏
You have given an elaborate reply. I am not getting enough words to answer this.

For point 1
Yes, ladies were given importance, in that time also. One should never go ONLY by generally accepted norms. There are examples which say so. In Mughals take the example of:

Haji Begum / Bega Begum
Maham Anga,😉😆
Hamida Banu Begum
Mariam-Uz-Zamani Begum
Ruqayya Begum
Salima Begum
Nur Jahan,
Jahanara Begum,
Zinnat-un-Nissa Begum, etc.

Infact, this prosperity is well-intact till the time, empire flourishes. Basically, i mean to say, that political security ensures other developments also.😊 And, Mughals had a secure and powerful empire atleast from Akbar's time to end of Aurangzeb.(1556-1707).

The concept of Economy and Empire goes together.😊So, when their empire had the strength to fight other rivals. In the meantime the women folk contributed a lot to other developments.

Coming to other Hindu kingdoms, majority of North-West India was under continuous attack from the West Asians. And, wars did create security issues for womenfolk. So, since political stability was missing from this area. Hence, it was sure that in this area, the time which women get for their personal own deveelopments/experiments would be less. But, inspite of this, these areas also have examples, like:

Mira Bai,
Rani Durgawati (a great warrior. She fought against this same Asaf Khan in the battle in 1564 while fighting in Garh area, of central India, and finally finding surrounded by enemy, stabbed herself. It is recorded for her that, she used to drink water, only after killing the tiger, if she heard the voice of this beast.🤓 Commanded the army, herself in the battle-field, since her husband had died long before, and had defeated surrounding rulers also, including Baz Bahadur of Malwa.)
Note:Asaf Khan = Adham Khan ( hope you understood what i mean, from the above episode.😕)

Rani Padmavati (a LIVING legend in Chittor .!. Commited Jauhar in 1303-5 around. There is mention about her in Padmavat by Malik Muhammed Jayasi.)

As per my reading in especially Rajputana history, there is mention that court ladies were capable of composing excellent verses in Sanskrit and Prakrit language. Contrary to popular opinion, the princesses of Rajput aristocracy were skilled in fine arts,😉 specially in paintings and dancing. They had the right to inherit the property of their male relations, after their death. Also, contrary to popular belief, Sati was NOT practiced in each case. It depended on other factors as well. Example: Take the case of Rajmata Bala Bai, grandmother of Jodha, from serial.😉

Many foreign scholars have written total rubbish about them.🤬

Note:
I have not written many contributions about the Mughal ladies in this comment deliberately.😉 They will be posted separately by an other member.😊
Also, we were discussing about aristocracy, here.

Point 2
Actually, it's not possible to compare the miniatures of different kingdoms. 😊 Because these are influenced by the location of the seat of governance, and ofcourse the religious beliefs, etc.

Also, it is a general perception that the rulers apart from Mughals did not have well developed painting art, but that is not the entire story.😊 Separate schools of paintings existed in Rajputana also, like Mewar, Bundi, Kishangarh, Jaipur, Bikaner, Kota, Pahari, Kangra and Basholi.

Of these the Jaipur paintings are close to Mughals.(got the connection.?.?.😉.)
And, Kangra and Basholi closely resemble Mughal miniatures.😊

About Mughal paintings we know, as this thread started from this topic only. But, would mention, Akbar had 17 main painters. Out of them, NOT less than 13 were Hindu painters ONLY.😉

Point 3
Even i sail in same ship. Many of the Indian artifacts are in these foreign museums and they are not in public domain. 😕

Point 4
You are almost on the point here also.😊 Since, Mughals never faced sea-warfare considering their ancestry as they had to fight on land, so it was natural that INITIALLY they appeared uninterested in sea-warfare. But, as you also mentioned regarding Jodha and Haj ships, etc. It was clear that protection was meted out to these ships also.😊 But, the point is that, special warfare ships were not on their agenda. Also, it seems that the protection was not up to the mark, because these ships were at times captured by the Portuguese. 😕

As you guessed, they built ships later, but NOT for warfare.😊 Shah Jahan, in 1651, initiated construction of 4 to 6 BIG ships, but for voyages to West Asia. In following year, 6 ships were put into commission. Soon, Indian shipyards were in a position to produce ships based on European models.

One thing worth mentioning is that, the Armed Land Might of Mughals at that time compensated for their lack of warfare at sea level. 😊

BTW, Tipu Sultan(1782-99), is said to have started a programme for such warfare ships, quietly.😉

P.S. -> Made this reply post in phases. 😆Typing 3-4 lines at a time, while taking a break of 5-10 minutes, from my schedule.🥱
@All. I will reply to posts, but slowly.!.Meanwhile, keep posting. I like reading your views.😊

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sunram

@sunram

Explorer

Posted: 11 years ago

#53

Very interesting thread Abhay Nausenas and Nazranas and good posts.
My feeling is lot of responsibility administrative advisory and developmental was entrusted on women of Moghul period be it common or royal.Half the time the menfolk were busy with war and warfare expanding the kingdoms and controlling political uprisings. I read in one of the books that Akbar was good technically and he took person interest in gunpowder

Now why did they initially ignore navy is it because they were busy with wars and conquering the the northern area of India and then when they came to the area having coastal areas again some other administrative and poilitical problems came up and this area was just looked at superfically

Describing Fatehpur Sikri

As far as the kharkhanas are concerned they were also within the palace or very near to it in one of the letters he say "the king is a mechanic and has all sorts of craftsmen within the palace enclosure..."

a Jesuit letters and Monserrate (was one of the tutors of Prince Salim )he describes though how much he really knew about the layout is to be taken with a pinch of salt as men were not allowed inside the palace as far as I read he further writes that Akbar used to walk from the diwan-i-am to the 'gunmakers workshop' situated nearby In his commentaries he describes

.... he has built a workshop near the palace , where also are studios and workrooms for the finer and more reputable arts, such as painting , goldsmith-work, tapestry-making ,carpet and curtainmaking , and the manufacture of arms

No doubt Jodha had some role to play during the building of Fatehpur Sikri and other subsequent Mughal begums When the men were out fighting I think they played a very positive role

Empress Nur Jehan is credited for having launched the Indian perfume industry and she has also designed the beautiful floral patterns at the entrance of her husband's tombs

From the net

During the Mughal period, women were regarded with more esteem than ever before and in many respects were treated as equal to men.

Mongol tribal society gave women equality in most realms. Many thirteenth-century historical accounts (Mongol, Persian, and Chinese) describe how elite Mongol women fought in the military, owned property, engaged in business ventures and civic discourse, were sometimes educated, and could seek divorce. Babur's Mongolian ancestor, Kublai Khan's mother, Sorghaghtani Beki, was one of the most well-known of Mongolian women, and a very powerful political figure, but the fact that the Mughals were Muslim (as well as of Mongol heritage) complicated the social status of Mughal women. When Mughal attitudes toward women came into contact with Hindu attitudes, the resulting effects on women's status were both positive and negative. Babur and other emperors were known to rely on the political advice of their female relatives, and Akbar established a girls' school where his daughters were educated (although he himself had not been taught to read as a child). Akbar also discouraged child marriage, promoted widow marriage, and banned sati (the Hindu custom of a widow voluntarily being burned alive upon her husband's funeral pyre). During the reigns of Emperor Jahangir (r. 1605-1627) and Shah Jahan (r. 1628-1658), Queen Nur Jahan (1577-1645) became a significant policy maker. She, along with her father and brother, ruled the empire for the last decade of Jahangir's reign after he became ill. Later, Queen Nur Jahan's niece, Mumtaz Mahal (to whom the Taj Mahal was dedicated), married Shah Jahan, and after her death, her unmarried daughter, Jahanara, became queen. To a certain extent, Mughal attitudes toward women influenced Indian society positively, and Hindu women were consequently allowed to engage in business and to own land. Yet on the other hand, Hindu customs such as sati and early marriage persisted, and the imitation of constrictive Mughal-Muslim influences such as purdah (secluding women and/or requiring them to veil themselves in public) began to enter upper-caste Indian society.

Except the colored parts rest is my POV based on what I read from different sources

Edited by sunram - 11 years ago

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sunram

@sunram

Explorer

Posted: 11 years ago

#54

Again from the net (to be taken with a pinch of salt) shows there was some ships but not a naval command as such

Matters of Faith and Marriage:

From an early age, Akbar was raised in a tolerant milieu. Although his family was Sunni, two of his childhood tutors were Persian Shias. As an emperor, Akbar made the Sufi concept of Sulh-e-Kuhl, or "peace to all," a founding principle of his law.

Akbar displayed remarkable respect for his Hindu subjects and their faith. His first marriage in 1562 was to Jodha Bai or Harkha Bai, who was a Rajput princess from Amber. As with the families of his later Hindu wives, her father and brothers joined Akbar's court as advisers, equal in rank to his Muslim courtiers. In total, Akbar had 36 wives of various ethnic and religious backgrounds.

Probably even more importantly to his ordinary subjects, Akbar in 1563 repealed a special tax placed on Hindu pilgrims who visited sacred sites, and in 1564 completely repealed the jizya, or yearly tax on non-Muslims. What he lost in revenue by these acts, he more than regained in good-will from the Hindu majority of his subjects.

Even beyond the practical realities of ruling an enormous, predominantly Hindu empire with just a small band Muslim elite, however, Akbar himself had an open and curious mind on questions of religion. As he mentioned to Philip II of Spain in his letter, cited above, he loved to meet with learned men and women of all faiths to discuss theology and philosophy. From the female Jain guru Champa to Portuguese Jesuit priests, Akbar wanted to hear from them all.

Foreign Relations:

As Akbar solidified his rule over northern India, and began to extend his power south and west to the coast, he became aware of the new Portuguese presence there. Although the initial Portuguese approach to India had been "all guns blazing," they soon realized that they were no match militarily for the Mughal Empire on land. The two powers made treaties, under which the Portuguese were allowed to maintain their coastal forts, in exchange for which the promised not to harass Mughal ships that set out from the west coast carrying pilgrims to Arabia for the hajj.

Interestingly, Akbar even formed an alliance with the Catholic Portuguese to punish the Ottoman Empire, which controlled the Arabian Peninsula at that time. The Ottomans were concerned that the huge numbers of pilgrims flooding in to Mecca and Medina each year from the Mughal Empire were overwhelming the resources of the holy cities, so the Ottoman sultan rather firmly requested that Akbar quit sending people on the hajj.

Outraged, Akbar asked his Portuguese allies to attack the Ottoman navy which was blockading the Arabian Peninsula. Unfortunately for him, the Portuguese fleet was completely routed off of Yemen. This signaled the end of the Mughal/Portuguese alliance.

Akbar maintained more enduring relations with other empires, however. Despite the Mughal capture of Kandahar from the Persian Safavid Empire in 1595, for example, those two dynasties had cordial diplomatic ties throughout Akbar's rule. The Mughal Empire was such a rich and important potential trading partner that various European monarchs sent emissaries to Akbar, as well, including Elizabeth I of England and Henry IV of France.

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sunram

@sunram

Explorer

Posted: 11 years ago

#55

I dont know whether it was posted before

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sunram

@sunram

Explorer

Posted: 11 years ago

#56

Got this from a blog

Emperor Akbar ruled Lahore for 18 years, 14 years as the Capital of Hindustan itself. This 14 years rule was from 1584 to 1598, and here we have a recorded incident dated May, 1594. Historians have written that:

"A ship was completed on the banks of the Ravi. The length of the keel, which formed the foundation of this wooden house, was 35 Ilahi yards, 2936 large planks (shahtir) of sal and pine, and 468 maunds and two seers of iron, were used in building it, and 240 carpenters and blacksmiths and others were employed. His Majesty went to see the spectacle."

write of this and we need to revisit information and see it as:

Emperor Akbar and his ships

Emperor Akbar, who ruled much of India in the latter half of the 16th century, apparently had a great interest in modern shipbuilding. This might have been sparked in part by his relations with the Portuguese (who had established themselves at Goa by this time) and their modern warships. It is known from the Akbarnama and Ain-e-Akbari that several large, ocean-going ships were built in India under Akbar's reign, at Lahore and Ilahabas (Allahabad). The first such ship was built in June 1592 near Lahore; construction could not place near the coastline itself due to a lack of timber. The ship was built of 3000 large wooden planks and roughly 12 tons of iron was used, with a keel measuring close to 100 feet in length. This would make it on par with the galleons being built in Europe at the same time. The constructed ships were transported by massive barges to the Mughal ports in Sindh, where they were put to sail in the Arabian Sea.

Nausena not there but what about this contemorory Akbar period

Edited by sunram - 11 years ago

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Joja

@Joja

Voyager

Posted: 11 years ago

#57

1. Does the presence of ladies in the portraits speaks something of women's position in that era ?

Abhay, most of the information I know about Akbar is from you.And after reading your posts have tried to know more about Akbar, the great. And indeed he is great.

Women did have a role (or should I say major role) during his reign. MA is a living example. If he had treated Women anything less can anyone imagine her being a wazir-a-alia in that era. What she means to him is a different story but giving that position means he does treat men-women almost equal. Atleast he didn't teated them low. And yes, it is mentioned in many places of MUZ and her role. She used to give orders when he was out on war and collected nazranas. Even HB has the power next to him and all these is infact true. Hats off to this great king.

2. Also, about the expertise of the painters of those times, that in an illustration of a size comparable to 20x30 cms, they could display such fine scenes, with delicate details.??

So much information and so many predictions from this 20x30 image. The picture is so much in detail and we can see it even after so many years. Aren't we blessed to see it today.

Though the buildings/books are destroyed, this pic actually lets us know their lifestyle, dress, work, style of buildings, war type and what not.

3. Would also like to hear about the destruction / losses of historical treasures at the hands of various agencies?

Its true that India was invaded by many and we have lost so much wealth and history too. But I also feel our government is not like any other country where they consider they give importance to history and things related to it. Wish our government gets all the sources related to India back home. For ex: Mallya has got back Tippu sultan sword and its with him now. Atleast am happy its back in our land.

And also as someone has mentioned, its our duty too as citizens of India to preserve what we have. I have seen some places where people have inscribed their names on such lovely sculptures. I just feel so disgusted with those, how can they even think of spoiling something which is so valuable.

4. Also, regarding the fight on boats?

I am not sure if they had navy then so no comments. But if it wasn't there, then I wish it was there and Akbar has ruled for more time.

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Abhay

@history_geek

Rocker

+ 5

Posted: 11 years ago

#58

Originally posted by: Donjas
Great post. Very interesting.

Originally posted by: ann2012
awesome post! 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
I especially like the deductions 😉

Originally posted by: -Lila-
Wow, some really interesting information!
and loved the paintings. They were absolutely beautiful!
Thanks for the Pm :)

Originally posted by: sonia_1
Fantastic post Abhay 👏
The miniatures are incredible in its detailing ⭐️

Originally posted by: anshfever
awesome post...thank u so much.

Originally posted by: ayushimehra
GREAT EFFORT ABHAY, I WILL WRITE LATER.

Originally posted by: elasingh
Tfs Abhay...Great work...

Originally posted by: lucymoni
kanha jee has blessed you abhay with so much knowledge. god bless you.

Originally posted by: Angel-
excellent post!👏It's such great n highly informative
Thanks for the lovely bits of information on Akbar 😃

Originally posted by: Akanksha_33
Thanks for the valuable information Abhay... 😊

Originally posted by: sonilausarun
Wow, some great information. 😃Thanks for sharing, very interesting facts indeed.👏

Originally posted by: -ambrosia-
Great post abhay..😃
Mujhey history ka bohot kam pata hai
Thanx for sharing

Originally posted by: abhi786
Abhay wonderful post with interesting facts thanks for sharing 👏

Originally posted by: jshweta16
Great work Abhay!! 😊
...Res...

@All ... Welcome.😊

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Originally posted by: Akdhaparijatluv
buddy first appreciating u for ur effort n research👏👏thanku for the excellent and valuable info😊
asaf khan was wazir(is it after atgah khan death by any chance or before AK??)kudos to the artists at that time for making clear and visible paintings👏it seems like Akbar is fond of boatride whether its battle or date😆The women in the portrait do suggest their position in mughal era..i read that akbar do take suggestions in DEK from them...those two women seems lik ruks and MUZ😆

Nice views Bhawna.😃 Waise Asaf Khan was present before Atga Khan's demise also, mainly fought wars. Great you could connect the paintings with position of women to a certain extent. BTW, your idea about MUZ and Ruqs is 😆👏.

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Originally posted by: kmmdesai
Hi Abhay,
Wonderful! 👏
Great work you are doing by sharing a slice of history with such details.
I need to go through it once more in detail to participate in any discussion. Will try to do it as soon as possible.
Love
Kshithi

Thank You Kshiti. I will wait for your detailed reply. Take your time.😊

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Originally posted by: dkorumilli
Abhay,

As usual great post👏 Those pictures have so many things and people , yet very clear. Really artists are just fantastic.
Coming to your questions, as I know very little of history (didn't remember anything at least what I studied in school) and just follow your posts 😊 putting my view on your first question about women position, I think women got some respect in all things or else how can our beloved mahamanga can become wazir e aliya. I mean even akbar is great he should see some protests if a woman is given such high position right if women is not so respected.

Anyways thanks for your posts and will wait for your next updates 😊

Deepika,
Your points in blue, have said everything. Thanx for sharing your views.😊

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Originally posted by: ngayou
@Abhay, really loved seeing the paintings & reading your comments on their intricate details. An eyeopener for a person like me, who wasn't a very good student of history at school nor showed major interest in it. In fact, watching JA only has made me get interested in its history & thankfully, due to posts from your & some of the researchers in this forum, I ve been able to imbibe some really valuable information. Kudos to u all 👏 . Regarding your 4 questions, I cant presume to answer on them as am no expert, but am surely enjoying reading others ' insights. Once again, thanks 😳 .

No problems Gayatri. You are always welcome to read this and share your views here. Keep posting. 😊Though, now i feel one thing which went in my favor was i used to pay great attention in my history classes in school, though it is not my domain now. 😊

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Originally posted by: Clumsy_Wings
Abhay most of your research has again been confirmed by a famous Mughal Author. Those who read the 20th wife, the reason the author actually made Ruqu as one the central character due to her importance in Nur Jahan's life. She confirmed a lot of Abhay's research. Anyway! keep them coming.. The picture seems great. Will reply in full during weekends.. Thanks for the research again Abhay.

Syria,
This is YET another verification of my work by you. You are a proxy researcher here.😉 Will wait for your detailed reply.😊

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@All...Answering many people simultaneously, due to paucity of time.😊

Edited by history_geek - 11 years ago

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MaddyO

@MaddyO

Sparkler

Posted: 11 years ago

#59

Originally posted by: history_geek

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@All...Hope i did not miss anyone. Answering many people simultaneously, due to paucity of time.😊

Abhay you missed me😊

Edited by MaddyO - 11 years ago

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akdha

@akdha

Voyager

Posted: 11 years ago

#60

HI Abhay, kamal, lizzy and all😛 i really enjoy these history threads, more than my history classes, where i usually be sleeping😆 the info u provide make me more interesting to know more about it. thanks for these wonderful threads😃 want to hear more😳

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Nausena-Pt5-JA not Fiction-AKBAR-a TITLE?.P27+ MAHACHUCHAK BEGUM - P30 - Page 6

Matters of Faith and Marriage:

Foreign Relations:

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