Jodha Akbar 36: Shahi Shaadi 2: Imperial flush - Page 2

I agree with your take on Jodha. I just could not digest the the dress-burning scene. And as I said in some other post, Jalal's reasoning with Maham was possibly the most interesting scene. The way he reasons with her, declaring his opinion is the rule, and then explaining the reasons, lovely. It is almost like an adult explaining why life is so unfair to a petulant child. This, in my opinion, brings the gradual subversion of the established roles in the story. Looks like Jalal is the logical adult in the show. 😉

Exactly. I didn't have a problem with dress-burning, undignified and immature behaiour but the way a normal person who has a SPINE and can STAND up for herself would behave and she was still in shock. But what irritated me was that after she had an entire night to contemplate she still only thought about herself. After all her lectures about how she can do anything for Amer, atleast she could do that. The dress burning could have happened to anyone, that was hurt Rajput pride speaking (jalal ain't the only one with an ego) but after that her actions? Yes, she's pretty selfish.
Something weird struck me, this show started with how Jodha turns Jalal human. W expected a perfect Jodha and an imperfect Jalal, instead we get a flawed Jodha and a pretty much perfect Jalal (he seems like a wonderful ruler nowadays.) and seeing everyone's posts about how Jalal should give a lesson to immature Jodha i was like what's happening? Taming of the shrew?
Anyway, what i liked-
1. The dress-burning. So even though i agree not proper behaviour for a princess but atleast it was something different from the normal female protagonists who sacrifice themselves without a thought for themself.
2. That jodha is Flawed! Not one-dimensional, she can make MISTAKES :O a heroine of an indian tv show? Woah! She can think about herself even if she's a bit selfish.
3. Jalal to i always love :*


4. Jodha set those conditions in front of everyone. Foolishness or bravery? I'd say very courgaeous with a pinch of foolishness, it's like somehow she thinks she can get away with everything. She probably thinks her babusa and bhaisas will save her whatever she does.
Btw. I love Raja Bharmal, he's pretty practical, expect for the not telling the name drama to Jodha.
Anyway, love-hate relations need intensity and that comes by OTT drama. Im all prepared for the ride, if they mantain the standard it's gonna be one heck of a journey.


i keep editing this post :p
one more thing, I think the biggest thing here is, she does NOT realise the gravity of the situation. She somehow thinks that she just needs to figure out a way out of this and everything will be allright. Human behaviour. I know i would do the same, somehow try and figure out a way but keep Aamer safe. It looks selfish when we see from afar, we're not involved, we can comment. we can be judgemental but self-preservations instincts kick when cornered and Jalal has cornered her neatly. We know Jalal won't treat her badly but how would she know that? Their alliance was the first of its kind. Before that, a rajput mughal alliance was unheard of. And every girl has dreams, whether a princess or not. It isn't nice to see them shattered.
But again weren't princesses being sacrificed a common thing those days? There are strong arguments from both sides. :p
I don't know which side to take. It's just like how i understood Jodha's hatred for Jalal in the beginning but the intensity no.!

Lovely post Shyamala di, you do make me think the nuances of these episodes again and again. Akbar was no doubt the show stealer. I was thinking they should have case studies of Akbar in the management courses...just kidding. But seriously you cannot find a better a manipulator or a negotiator and even better a leader in the history. And I am still in awe of Rajat. He has picked up the details so well be it the mannerisms, facial expressions or the dialogues.

Gargi my dear,

Your impassioned arguments are so appealing that at times I forget where I do not agree with them.!
It is the same now. You should have been, and perhaps were, an orator in ancient Rome, before the Caesars came along.

I was in bad shape last night, for on top of my bandaged wrist, I also had red, watering eyes from what looks to be a solid case of conjunctivitis, I literally dragged myself across the finishing line even later than usual because of that, and that probably made me a tad harsher than I would otherwise have been about Jodha yesterday. But only a little.

I have already written against her father hiding the truth from her till it revealed itself, and argued that this would not have resulted in her refusing, given her commitment to Amer, but would have given her more time to adjust herself mentally to the horrendous prospect. And I would grant all your arguments about it being a horrendous prospect for her.

But now I am not sure she would not have refused, for her sense of priorities is not what one would have expected from a Rajput princess of her times.And her father simply could not have risked it.

I did not like it that because of her unforgivable lack of self control in burning that joda, she heedlessly endangered all of Amer. I did not like her exclusive pre-occupation with her own miseries,and neglect of all else, There are sacrifices and sacrifices, and committing jauhar, leaving the ordinary populace to the tender mercies of Sharifuddin and Adham Khan when there IS an alternative that can save them, is not courage, but the opposite. It is a copout, and is also very selfish.

I like women to be stronger than men. Yesterday, Jodha behaved like a petulant and irresponsible young woman, when she could have been a pattern card for calm dignity and the courage of endurance under fire.I was disappointed in her, and I do not like being disappointed in women. Men do not matter so much to me when they fail.

There, that is as much as my system can take right now, so bye till tonight/early tomorrow morning, unless of course I have to wait til tomorrow morning because my eyes are gummed together by midnight and will not open!😉

Affectionately,

Shyamala Di

Originally posted by: Bamonforever

Shyamala di, very nuanced writing , truly a treat.

However , frankly speaking, I think you're being too harsh with Jodha n not at all being fair to her .

When we look at some one as a character in a drama , we miss out another very vital n very real point of view , that is human point of view.

Jodha is not only a princess , or rather a robot princess , she's a real girl, with real feelings n emotional baggage , n she should have them , it's what makes her all the more likable n interesting. It's really too much to always judge her from royal parameters n forget that she's a human being. The girl had recently gone through too much n still she's trying her best to adjust to the rapidly changing situations. I think she's doing a great job !

When we make a promise , we don't always mention all the terms n conditions applied herewith that promise, simply because we hope, expect n trust the person to whom we're promising , to understand us n therefore effectively understand the terms n conditions that are inherent in that promise . If the person fails to do so, or deliberately chooses not to understand n there by ignore them, well, the fault is entirely their's to take, don't you agree ?

When it comes to Jodha's promise or saying that she'd do any thing for Amer , she definitely didn't think even in her nightmares that her father would ask her to marry a mughal king, did she ? Can't call her a deal breaker there, if there is any fairness in the world. Getting married to a mughal was the worst nightmare for any Rajput woman , it was in their psyche , NOT only of Jodha ( also being grown up in a household where every body always used to regard her future husband as Jallad till about two days ago n voice the same , even his father , who is now so eager to marry her off to the same "jallad " , doesn't help one much in being all readiness to accept this changed circumstances ). The very proposal of a Rajput princess getting married to a mughal king must be sounding an outrageous one for any Rajput. Yes, her reaction was definitely absolutely too much , but I find it very natural, n any thing natural is acceptable for me , because I didn't see her reacting abnormally to a normal situation, for however valid may be the marriage-deal under the circumstances , it is still very much abnormal.

As for Amer royal family, they were wrong from the very beginning.

Shoudn't we cut the poor girl some slack, how'd you have felt if you'd come to know at the day of your marriage that the guy you're going to marry is the one you hate the most ?? N that your whole family was deceiving you ? How'd you have reacted if with in 10 minutes of that realization, you were asked to accept 'gifts' from the person n that too from the hands of a most rude woman , who despite Jalal once reminding her not to cross limit with honewali mallika , dared to do just that because Jalal was not present ??

Blame it on her parents who didn't allow her any time for emotional adjustment, not even bare 5 minutes to be mentally ready , to get over such a huge emotional n mental shock. She had been kept in the dark till the last minute n then suddenly she's being expected to be all sweet n polite ?? Is it even a realistic expectation ?

Her father should be ashamed of himself, NOT because he's selling out Jodha for Amer, that I understand n even agree totally, he really had no other way, but because he should've told Jodha a long time back that her groom is Jalal. I'm sure had given proper time , she'd have behaved properly. Now all of a sudden all her family is chirping lines about Sacrifice n compromise etc etc., then why this fraudulence ? Why not come out clean n tell the girl to do what is needed from the very beginning ?

If you are being hilariously unfair to a person right from the moment you're striking some deal involving her whole life , you HAVE TO cut her some slack.

If any one is the deal breaker, it's her family, who were planning to get her married to a mughal king with out informing her in the least. Had it been today Jodha should've charged her family under Right to Information Act in the very least.

She didn't only remember the plunders of mughals in the temple, but very significantly she ALSO remembered Suryabhan, her just deceased fiance , whom she'd started to grow some feelings for , n her turmoil must've been increased thousand folds that she's getting married to a king, who is at least indirectly the reason of his death ( for it's impossible for any one to believe that Sharifuddin didn't attack Amer with his permission or direct order ) . Isn't this marriage an insult to Suryabhan's sacrifice for Amer , or breach of the promises she gave to him , to his memory ? Not really, but for her, at that moment is must've seemed so. Surya shouldn't matter to her any more simply because he's dead n gone, n thousands of people of Amer are still alive n their lives depend on Jodha's sacrifice. But her parents didn't even have the decency to let alone take permission, but to inform her so that she can have ample time to accept her fate n let go of those memories n withdraw those promises ) I don't think when Suryabhan emphasized to Jodha to keep their subjects above all things in importance, he by any means included the idea of marrying a mughal to save them. The standard Rajput royal's idea would'be to expect their queens to lead the women to jauhar firmly.

It was very natural for a Rajputani to do jauhar ,if need be they'd do it with out a second thought , to protect themselves from being touched by a mughal, but absolutely an absurd n unnatural situation to marry one of the same. I agree that Rajput royal women were taught from very childhood to put her responsibilities above every thing, but the Raputs also would learn to hate mughals from the very childhood. As simple as that.

Such a marriage , as I think we could all agree was a first of it's kind, so Jodha was basically the First ever Rajput royal lady , to be put into such a situation, to be asked to make a such a sacrifice, such a huge compromise with her dignity ,because as I mentioned, during those times, nothing could've been more insulting for a Rajput women to fall in the hands of mughals, nothing would hurt the pride of a rajputani more , whether it is by valid ( ? ) marriage or by being abducted.

I really have no more energy left today to give my two bits about the other points. Tomorrow may be.

Warm regards n please do not stop 'em from coming. 😉

The discussions from both sides on jodha are great ! I'm still wanting to cut the girl some flack thinking she is just 17 now! ! And honestly it's good for a change to see a different female lead than the ever sacrificing one who just mumbles in mind ! Jodha showed what her hatred is for Jalal. 😆
And like I said in my take, it's more for the people who don't think of symbolisms and all to show them through action that this is how much she hates him ! Not all audiences think abt this stuff of characterization, classy stuff, etc and need these in your face actions ! 😆
And they did buffer this dramatic scene with showing jodha play a mind game with Jalal with the sharts ! Even today people aren't fond of inter-religious alliances , this is still sixteenth century where any one knows that it is next to impossible for one to accept other religion! 🤓

It's not like jodha isn't smart as Jalal ! Jalal too is underestimating her strength at one point in his mad desire to own her ! He was the one himself saying she has what his other begum's don't have, and he only plans to keep her a showpiece in harem ! Naah baby she ain't just another pretty thing ! 😉

Both are smart and it's their battle of wits like anu in EDT said is their USP ! We can't ignore they BOTH have an impulsive side which leads them into problems !

Shyamala Aunty look what u have done to me.Its after 12:00 am and i am on IF looking for your PM to read your very long and articulated post.

Originally posted by: smiletherapy

Imperial flush indeed! Another great post Shyamala Aunty.

As you say Jalal once again proves he has the authority and
power of the Shahenshah but also the forethought, political prowess and dignity
befitting his lineage and that of an all conquering Shahenshah.

Alas, if only the writers would afford Jodha the same
dignity of character! Yesterday, when I called upon her character to show more
Scarlett O'Hara, I was referring to Scarlett's backbone and tenacity, not of
her petulance and self-centeredness. I'm quite disappointed by Jodha's burning
of the sari, as well. I couldn't agree with you more. While I can understand her
emotions, the fact that she doesn't have the self-discipline to keep them in
check given her station in life, it was unacceptable.

I'm quite surprised actually to dissentors of your take on
Jodha, Shyamala Aunty! Which though interesting posts, I still have to disagree

Very well said.

with the arguments of giving Jodha some leeway b/c she's human; or some
feminist perspectives. And here's why:

To put this in another perspective, Jodha's actions have
actually been disempowering for her and Jalal had that right. She's reacting
rather than thinking and consciously choosing to act. As a princess she has
enjoyed a comfortable life with far more freedoms and ease than so many other
women in that day. The flipside of such royal comfort is having responsibility
above that of regular persons, as yes, your actions do affect many others
beyond yourself. You don't get to pick and choose what about the royal life you
will accept and not accept; but having said that, she does have some choices
and some power. She's nowhere near as helpless or powerless, as the poor married
woman Jalal picked off the street, harassing her and her husband just to see
the boundaries of their relationship. For that woman, and others like her, I
feel immense sympathy'that is a woman who truly has no power and no recourse in
life. So yes, while I can sympathise that she is suddenly feeling oppressed by
the patriarchal system now in these circumstances, I'm not inclined to be that
sympathetic to her; especially when in the larger picture she and her family
are still being publicly respected and safe.

This makes it all the more disappointing for me that Jodha,
as a princess and a supposedly intelligent, educated one at that, did not choose to find ways to stick up for
herself and prove to be a more fitting match for Jalal without disrespecting
him, the Mughals, her family and of course, herself. That made the sharth
gambit all the more disappointing to me for that reason as well---in that it was another
wasted opportunity to have a more interesting complex interchange between equal
opponents. While Jodha's request was honorable enough, of course, the intention
behind it revealed her to be immature once again. Moreover, her ploy was one
that left her yet again without agency, as the ball was still in Jalal's court. If
instead, she had more intelligently used this as a moment where she accepted
the marriage and tried to negotiate with him, then perhaps she could've gained
some measure of control in her life and made some positive impressions with
Jalal (even if she hates him, she's gonna have to go live with him eventually)
which could open up more possibilities for her in the future. (I liked Mansi's
post about the sharts yesterday in regards to explaining some of the more
subtle personal negotiations that could've come from the shart gambit.)

Clearly, I'm quite disappointed in the direction they chose
to take Jodha. She had plenty of imperfections that were interesting and made
her complex, without having to have her character degenerate into this
prototype of a childish female who doesn't have any vision beyond her own
emotions and situation. This type of characterizations of women is particularly
irksome to me. I really hope they
redeem her character soon; or at least have her behave like a true princess,
and with the supposed intelligence that we were lead to believe would have her
checkmating Ruquaiyya, MA and occasionally Jalal.

On another note entirely, it's interesting to see MA's
reactions to the proceedings, in that, we are starting to see more and more her
limitations as a great strategizer. MA, whom Jalal almost had replace BK,
apparently does not have the same foresight as Jalal regarding how to handle
the marriage proceedings to the best political advantage. Blinded by her
personal ambitions within the Mughal court, I suppose?, she definitely does not
have what it takes to be the Shahenshah'then again very few do. This leads me
to believe that Jalal should ask Dadisa to come to Agra with him'

Ok, well, time to get back to work. I'm hoping too at this
point that today's episode is enjoyable though less comment-worthy'though I
already had to roll my eyes at Jodha flinching when giving her hand. Deep deep
sigh.

Thanks for another wonderful post and thread Shyamala Aunty!
Thanks to all others for your responses as well, even if we don't agree, it's
still quite enjoyable!!

ps- Editing here as I forgot to add that I enjoyed the title of this post as well as it seemed to have an (intended?) double meaning--the allusion to a winning hand in poker and the fact that Jalal seemed to flush out the truth from Jodha and Motibhai's expressions during the shart.

⭐️ 👏

Nice analysis aunty...👍🏼