Superficiality and tricks in dance?[ DT NOTE P16] - Page 4

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nikitagmc thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
#31

Originally posted by: RadhaHiBawari



When you think horror, you think ghosts. And either Salman or Isha could have taken that role. But Salman chose Isha because of her flexibility. He himself couldn't have been able to pull of what she did. So the fact that the female in both acts is playing the ghosts is copying?

The songs are quite different, actually. They might be from the same movie, but "Pyaar Tune Kya Kiya" was originally just a romantic number with Urmila Matondkar singing in a bathtub. Salman took it in a whole different direction. And as per the camera effects, then that's all up to the camera man. They might have the same guy from last season, who knows?

I have already answered your point in blue in my original post above, but I'll try to put across my point in another way again.
Granted that it was more convenient to make Isha the ghost cos of her flexibility. But then where does the novelty remain in the act if everyone starts applying the same idea cos of the 'convenience' inspite of knowing it has already been done before just a season back? What is new and praiseworthy in the concept then, which is actually the soul in such acts? Why is the act then worthy of so much applause if all the choreographer has done is to stick to the conventional route, despite knowing that an act of this sort has ALREADY been done on this stage?! Obviously some people will feel that the act is not worth of a 30!! If this was the first act of this sort (like Sushant Shampa's) then people would not point fingers, but when you know an act of this sort has already been done then why chose the same concept/storyline knowing there will be comparisons? You can't blame people for drawing comparisons/calling it plagiarism if you chose to do something so blatantly similar for whatever reasons! The onus to make the act look different in every whichever way falls on the choreographer, with or without the help of the cameraman, lightsman or whoever is involved, but certainly not the audience! They will obviously compare if similar concepts are chosen.
And it was not just about the female playing the ghost which is leading to people calling it copying of the concept. It was also about the female BEING KILLED BY THE ONE SHE LOVED and then taking revenge- a love-revenge-horror story that Sushant had written and made into a short film named Ignored Decibels. If Salman was so keen to show Isha as a ghost, there could have been so many ways he could ahve done it without making it seem similar to Sushant-Shampa's act of the love-revenge-horror story. Show the girl being killed by a cruel thakur, in a different setting, , a burnt house, a deserted villlage, show a spirit in a haunted house, heck there are a hundred ideas! Vampires are the latest trend, show vampires! Think out of the box, that shall always garner more praise!
Edited by nikitagmc - 13 years ago
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Posted: 13 years ago
#32
Pallo!! 🤗 How are you?
Anyways, I finally caught this performance yesterday because everyone praised it so much so I wanted to see it for myself. I stopped wathcing JDJ weeks back..got way too bored. Anyways, getting back to Salman-Isha's performance: honestly I was pretty disappointed and upset at the similarities between Salman-Isha's performance and Sushant-Shampa's from last season. Normally I would have liked to have given Salman the benefit of the doubt, but there are too many for me to completely ignore.
The concept is essentially the same: Guy betrays girl and she comes back to haunt him and eventually kills him. Though this story is far clearer in Sushant-Shampa's case. The song is from the same movie. Camera angles are pretty similar. That backward crawling step also (not saying Shampa has a copyright on that step, but still). Obviously Salman was inspired by Sushant-Shampa's horror act and I'm not surprised...there really was something about that act. But I wish it wasn't so obvious...or that he gave credit at least. I wasn't looking for similarities..heck I didn't even know it was supposed to be similar, but I was instantly reminded of Sushant-Shampa.
I disagree that horror = ghosts only. There are plenty of scary things in this world: zombies, vampires, werewolves, snakes, creepy crawly insects, etc.. And fine if Salman wanted to go the ghost way, that's awesome. BUT there are plenty of different stories with ghosts that he can come up with. It doesn't have to be love betrayal --> haunting --> death.
I really wish Madhuri had pointed out the similarities. Out of Remo and Madhuri, Madhuri is the only one I would expect to point it out. Khair..guess I'm expecting too much from her. I've only been disappointed from her from whatever little I've seen of this season. :(
Judging separately: I did really like when Isha comes out of the bag--that was brilliantly executed...and as much a gimmick the last step was, and one that didn't really make much sense, it was done very well by Isha.
Though after a while, it became a bit gimmicky and I really did think the performance lacked dance in terms of steps. But I had the same problem with Isha-Salman's last performance I saw as well..I don't remember which one anymore..it was one of the first 2-3. Lack of actual dance steps, more theatrics to get the point across rather than the dance itself.
Which one people liked better comes down to personal opinion. I prefer Sushant-Shampa's not because it came first but because I thought it came together much better. The concept/story was very clear, there was tons of DANCE in terms of steps, choreography was better IMHO and it was executed well too. I connected more to it.
Anyways from whatever little I've seen of this season...it may be an unpopular opinion, but I think Shibani-Punit are better than Isha-Salman.
AreYaar thumbnail
Posted: 13 years ago
#33

Originally posted by: chocolover89

I disagree that horror = ghosts only. There are plenty of scary things in this world: zombies, vampires, werewolves, snakes, creepy crawly insects, etc.. And fine if Salman wanted to go the ghost way, that's awesome. BUT there are plenty of different stories with ghosts that he can come up with. It doesn't have to be love betrayal --> haunting --> death.

Anyways from whatever little I've seen of this season...it may be an unpopular opinion, but I think Shibani-Punit are better than Isha-Salman.



@bold: Completely agree...I don't get from what angle zombies can be the only horror theme to work with...I agree that the last climbing up the wall bit Isha did very well...but then she's an acrobat essentially...I'd be surprised if she couldn't do these things well atleast.

And I will reiterate...she lacks grace...FLOW in her dancing...don't know if that's thanks to the choreography as well since most of Salman's choreographies usually involve stunts or acrobatics...but she doesn't come across as graceful in my opinion...her face is very stiff and not expressive either.

Shibani on the other hand is much better from whatever I've seen of her performances...has a pleasant demeanor, grace and seems to have shown variety as well...Punit anyways seems a better choreographer than Salman...I felt that last year too and it was sad that Anushka got kicked out so early on...Punit was doing a good job with her too.

This season is so blahh that I don't really find it worth watching and whatever little I read about 30s being handed out like toffees shows even more clearly how "high" the standards are this season


P.S. btw Himani, I didn't know you were an NBT fan? Just saw your avi😆
Edited by AreYaar - 13 years ago
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Posted: 13 years ago
#34

Originally posted by: AreYaar



@bold: Completely agree...I don't get from what angle zombies can be the only horror theme to work with...I agree that the last climbing up the wall bit Isha did very well...but then she's an acrobat essentially...I'd be surprised if she couldn't do these things well atleast.

And I will reiterate...she lacks grace...FLOW in her dancing...don't know if that's thanks to the choreography as well since most of Salman's choreographies usually involve stunts or acrobatics...but she doesn't come across as graceful in my opinion...her face is very stiff and not expressive either.

Shibani on the other hand is much better from whatever I've seen of her performances...has a pleasant demeanor, grace and seems to have shown variety as well...Punit anyways seems a better choreographer than Salman...I felt that last year too and it was sad that Anushka got kicked out so early on...Punit was doing a good job with her too.

This season is so blahh that I don't really find it worth watching and whatever little I read about 30s being handed out like toffees shows even more clearly how "high" the standards are this season


P.S. btw Himani, I didn't know you were an NBT fan? Just saw your avi😆



AreYaar thumbnail
Posted: 13 years ago
#35


1) No...acrobatics, yes

2) No...acrobatics, yes


Hope that answers your questions. Circus performer grace and dancing grace...two different things...Isha sorely lacks the latter in my opinion and I'm entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.
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Posted: 13 years ago
#36

Originally posted by: AreYaar


@bold: Completely agree...I don't get from what angle zombies can be the only horror theme to work with...I agree that the last climbing up the wall bit Isha did very well...but then she's an acrobat essentially...I'd be surprised if she couldn't do these things well atleast.

And I will reiterate...she lacks grace...FLOW in her dancing...don't know if that's thanks to the choreography as well since most of Salman's choreographies usually involve stunts or acrobatics...but she doesn't come across as graceful in my opinion...her face is very stiff and not expressive either.

Shibani on the other hand is much better from whatever I've seen of her performances...has a pleasant demeanor, grace and seems to have shown variety as well...Punit anyways seems a better choreographer than Salman...I felt that last year too and it was sad that Anushka got kicked out so early on...Punit was doing a good job with her too.

This season is so blahh that I don't really find it worth watching and whatever little I read about 30s being handed out like toffees shows even more clearly how "high" the standards are this season

P.S. btw Himani, I didn't know you were an NBT fan? Just saw your avi😆

Hii Anu! 🤗
Her forte is acrobatics so she should be able to do it well yeah, but nevertheless I did like the way it was done. Effortless. But essentially that's what Salman puts in for his choreographies for Isha na? From whatever I've seen, he cashes in on her amazing flexibility a lot.
Grace..yeah she's not the most graceful dancer here. I thought Pratyusha was the most graceful from whatever I saw..pity she's out now. As for expressions, LOL. Isha is as expressionless as they come..that's why some people couldn't connect to her performances in the beginning. I noticed even in her movies..that wide-eyed doll face is what she has and that's about it..when she really tries, it shows that she's trying too hard aka that Dirty Picture performance. I find it amazing that she's a trained Kathak dancer as well though. How does a Kathak dancer not have expressions? 😕
I don't remember Punti-Anushka at all because they got out too early, but I was impressed with whatever I saw of Shibani=Punit. I really think they could be the "dark horses." Honestly, I was more impressed with Punti in JDJ than I ever have been in DID. 😆 He always faded wayy into the background for me in DID.
LMAO 30's like toffees 😆😆 That's exactly it..the scoring is SO bad it's not even funny 😆 Only the judges can make sense of it..it's like dada randombly saying Kya baat, grand salute to very random performance out there. 😆
NBT..I used to be a fan..my cousin recommended it to me so I started watching and I got hooked, especially to Mohan Bhatnagar. 😳 Pity the show's gone to the dogs now. 😭 Haha the avi..look familiar? I choried it from you only 😆
@quarky
That Paso Doble you posted shows exactly what Anu and I mean. Paso Doble is very aggressive..and FIERCE. Isha looks confused/ nervous to me from the very BEGINNING when she comes in...as if she's trying to remember her steps...not at all fierce IMHO. That end bit when she drops Salman and her expression afterwards..is..well I found it comical truth be told.
This is fierce. Just look at Shakti's expression near the end when she's about to kill Amar after he lets her go. I had goosebumps after it. Haunting. Isha was nowhere near that level for me...especially expression wise.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euJj2MSoURc[/YOUTUBE]
Edited by chocolover89 - 13 years ago
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Posted: 13 years ago
#37
I just LOVE Shibani. I would be so happy if she won, but I have to be honest here. In no way is Isha expressionless. From her very first performance, her expressions have been stunning. You simply can not say that there weren't expressions when you see the rage and hate in her eyes in the Paso Doble, the creepy (and no, that's not due to make-up) looks she gave in her last performance, the amused and then horrified ones in the The Dirty Picture performance. And she does too have grace and flow in her dance. Is Remo out of his mind to complement her so? In the first video that quarky posted, there are quite a few ballet steps! How is that acrobatics? And the Paso Doble? How can you dismiss her expressions as acrobatics? I'm pretty sure, now, I may be wrong, but expressions are on the face, acrobatics aren't. Unless of course, you qualify raised eyebrows and pursed lips as acrobatics.
Edited by RadhaHiBawari - 13 years ago
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Posted: 13 years ago
#38
First of all.. thanks for the link to Sushan-Shampa's performance.. somehow I had missed it last season 😊

Yes If I compare both the performances side by side.. I like Sushant's performance better. There was more of dancing in Sushan't performance while Isha's performance was more of story telling. But the point is Isha is not competing with Sushant here.. she is competing with different people.. and if you see other best performances from this week like Bharti and GC (I am considering 30 point performances only) then Isha was no less than them because her performance did leave an impact.

And being copied from Sushant's performance.. well I didn't feel like it was copied. Only one step done by Isha was same like Shampa's step. And honestly.. I don't think anyone can claim a copyright on a dance step. If you search on YT.. I am sure you will find some dance which might be similar to Sushant-Shampa's performance.. or any other JDJ performance.. what is more important to me is how it is performed on stage by that particular contestant. And Isha did a great job of telling a story through her performance.. I did get goosebumps by the end of their act.. 😛
AreYaar thumbnail
Posted: 13 years ago
#39

Originally posted by: chocolover89

Hii Anu! 🤗
Her forte is acrobatics so she should be able to do it well yeah, but nevertheless I did like the way it was done. Effortless. But essentially that's what Salman puts in for his choreographies for Isha na? From whatever I've seen, he cashes in on her amazing flexibility a lot.
Grace..yeah she's not the most graceful dancer here. I thought Pratyusha was the most graceful from whatever I saw..pity she's out now. As for expressions, LOL. Isha is as expressionless as they come..that's why some people couldn't connect to her performances in the beginning. I noticed even in her movies..that wide-eyed doll face is what she has and that's about it..when she really tries, it shows that she's trying too hard aka that Dirty Picture performance. I find it amazing that she's a trained Kathak dancer as well though. How does a Kathak dancer not have expressions? 😕
I don't remember Punti-Anushka at all because they got out too early, but I was impressed with whatever I saw of Shibani=Punit. I really think they could be the "dark horses." Honestly, I was more impressed with Punti in JDJ than I ever have been in DID. 😆 He always faded wayy into the background for me in DID.
LMAO 30's like toffees 😆😆 That's exactly it..the scoring is SO bad it's not even funny 😆 Only the judges can make sense of it..it's like dada randombly saying Kya baat, grand salute to very random performance out there. 😆
NBT..I used to be a fan..my cousin recommended it to me so I started watching and I got hooked, especially to Mohan Bhatnagar. 😳 Pity the show's gone to the dogs now. 😭 Haha the avi..look familiar? I choried it from you only 😆
@quarky
That Paso Doble you posted shows exactly what Anu and I mean. Paso Doble is very aggressive..and FIERCE. Isha looks confused/ nervous to me from the very BEGINNING when she comes in...as if she's trying to remember her steps...not at all fierce IMHO. That end bit when she drops Salman and her expression afterwards..is..well I found it comical truth be told.
This is fierce. Just look at Shakti's expression near the end when she's about to kill Amar after he lets her go. I had goosebumps after it. Haunting. Isha was nowhere near that level for me...especially expression wise.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euJj2MSoURc[/YOUTUBE]




I saw that performance too and felt she's super conscious...you can SEE her preparing for each step...it shows on her face, in her body language...lack of flow...and lol yes I also found it comical the way she was attempting to be "angry" and "fierce"...she has two expressions max and I think I've seen both of those expressions in Luck by Chance in that airhead bimbo role she had😆...the doll face as you said...ppl are mistakening her widening her eyes for expressions?😆...that's about all she can do...no expressiveness in the face otherwise...she's a trained Kathak dancer? Shocking...does not show even remotely in her "dancing" if it can be called that...anyways superficiality rules as Pallo pointed out in her first post.

LOL even Dada is not so generous with his 'kya baats' no matter how loopy he is otherwise...but then anyways JDJ ka standard of dancing can't match up to DID...it's always been more gimmicky...never more so than this season.

Re: NBT ...lol yeah I do recognize the avi :P...Mohan Bhatnagar will remain an iconic character to me although yes the show has sadly gone down the drain.


Ahh that Shakti performance...best paso doble on Indian TV yet...even now I get goosebumps watching that ending bit when she kills him and does that walk...perfect combo of FIERCE GRACE.

I agree about Punit being more noticeable in JDJ than DID...he always put me to sleep in DID😆...he's surprised me as a choreographer...thodi toh creativity dikhata hai unlike certain ppl *cough*

Pallo khud post banaa ke bhaag gayi hai ab😆...
Edited by AreYaar - 13 years ago
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Posted: 13 years ago
#40
For me Isha-Salman's performances have generally been low impact... I just never feel the "wow"

Technically Isha might be moving perfectly, but there is a soul that lacks in their numbers. This week there was a thousand tricks, but no still no emotions. IMO a horrific mahaul can be created in the most mundane of settings, and in fact can be more horrific that way... doing all these typical tricks in nothing new or horrifying. I was honestly irritated at the end of the performance... no clear story, disconnected acrobatic dance steps, no tuning with the song/lyrics, no flow, no dynamic between the man and woman, over the top costumes and make-up, and that damn annoying red light. I sincerely hated that light, it washed out everything, no details were visible! I could not understand what was so special in it aside from a few of her contortions..!

I think this is a general problem with Salman's choreographies and concepts... there are no moments or thoughts. There's never any poignant few seconds where it all comes in place... the song, the expressions, the dance steps, everything creates something larger than itself, the sum becomes larger than the parts... that's what leaves people with a "wow" feeling and that's what he lacks. I find their performances highly unthoughtful. There is very little depth to them beyond the surface-level-obvious.

This was a fantastic chance for Salman to let Isha try this crazy thing called expressions, but instead he went for rather run of the mill trickery. I'm no choreographer, but if he had to do the betrayal theme and use that song, he could have done it a very different way... He could have had the stage and costumes very simple... Isha looking kind of pale in a slightly ragged dress, leaving us unsure if she is really dead or if he killed her emotionally. He could have channeled the emotions of the song... of a pleading, wondering, and nearly resigned woman dancing with him, trying to be close again, coupled with vengeful expressions from her when he turns around... as if she is ready to kill him at any moment. He could have shown torn expressions of his own, wanting to go back to her and wanting to hate her at the same time. Instead it was just a very superficial performance...

Super agree with the similarities to Sushant and Shampa! Noticed it immediately when watching the episode! The very obvious copies...
> The exact same theme of a man betraying and the woman coming back from the dead for revenge
> The camera tricks... this is something the choreographer sets in these circumstances... he went for the exact same effect of him looking around and then the woman jumps on him
> One step was the same, though I usually wouldn't count that because nobody really has a trademark on any step, I found it amusing that he used in the exact same type of performance.

The funny thing in all of this was how unnecessary it was for him to copy! In a way it was almost forced! There are 1001 things to do in the horror theme, tons of ways to interpret the song, yet he went for the same thing... but it wasn't done nearly as well. SS aced on the story - from mundane, to shock, to double shock lol... the emotions and expressions were convincing... there were moments that really got you - when he dropped her from the stairs, when he gave that evil smile, when Shampa came back out, etc... the tuning between both of them... incorporation of meaty dance segments... everything was considered and thought through so well.

Disappointing to know that what was presented by Isha and Salman is now considered the ultimate peformance...

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