ToSwearOrNotToSwear?: Mytho Oaths and Consequences - Page 2

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Posted: 14 years ago
#11
This is the KMG translation text of various incidents related to our topic.


Krishna's words to Arjun when Arjun lifted the sword on Yudhishthir in Karna Parva:

"This vow, O Partha, was adopted by thee before from foolishness. In consequence of that vow thou art now, from folly, desirous of perpetrating a sinful act. Why, O Partha, dost thou rush towards thy reverend superior for slaying him, without having resolved the exceedingly subtle course of morality that is, again, difficult of being understood? I will now tell thee, O son of Pandu, this mystery connected with morality, this mystery that was declared by Bhishma, by the righteous Yudhishthira, by Vidura otherwise called Kshatri, and by Kunti, of great celebrity. I will tell thee that mystery in all its details. Listen to it, O Dhananjaya! One who speaks truth is righteous. There is nothing higher than truth. Behold, however, truth as practised is exceedingly difficult to be understood as regards its essential attributes. Truth may be unutterable, and even falsehood may be utterable where falsehood would become truth and truth would become falsehood. In a situation of peril to life and in marriage, falsehood becomes utterable. In a situation involving the loss of one's entire property, falsehood becomes utterable. On an occasion of marriage, or of enjoying a woman, or when life is in danger, or when one's entire property is about to be taken away, or for the sake of a Brahmana, falsehood may be uttered. These five kinds of falsehood have been declared to be sinless. On these occasions falsehood would become truth and truth would become falsehood. He is a fool that practices truth without knowing the difference between truth and falsehood."


Now KMG text of 'Naro va Kunjaro va' incident in Drona Parva:

Govinda, knowing that Drona, that foremost of warriors, was capable of sweeping all the Pandavas off the face of the earth, became much distressed. Addressing Yudhishthira he said, 'If Drona fighteth, filled with rage, for even half-a-day, I tell thee truly, thy army will then be annihilated. Save us, then, from Drona. under such circumstances, falsehood is better than truth. By telling an untruth for saving a life, one is not touched by sin. There is no sin in untruth spoken unto women, or in marriages, or for saving king, or for rescuing a Brahmana.'[252] While Govinda and Yudhishthira were thus talking with each other, Bhimasena (addressing the king) said, 'As soon, O monarch, as I heard of the means by which the high-souled Drona might be slain, putting forth my prowess in battle, I immediately slew a mighty elephant, like unto the elephant of Sakra himself, belonging to Indravarman, the chief of the Malavas, who was standing within thy army. I then went to Drona and told him, 'Aswatthaman has been slain, O Brahmana! Cease, then, to fight. Verily, O bull among men, the preceptor did not believe in the truth of words. Desirous of victory as thou art, accept the advice of Govinda. Tell Drona, O King, that the son of Saradwat's daughter is no more. Told by thee, that bull among Brahmanas will never fight. Thou, O ruler of men, art reputed to be truthful in the three worlds.' Hearing those words of Bhima and induced by the counsels of Krishna, and owing also to the inevitability of destiny, O monarch, Yudhishthira made up his mind to say what he desired. Fearing to utter an untruth, but earnestly desirous of victory, Yudhishthira distinctly said that Aswatthaman was dead, adding indistinctly the world elephant (after the name), Before this, Yudhishthira's car had stayed at a height of four fingers' breadth from the surface of the earth; after, however, he had said that untruth, his (vehicle and) animals touched the earth.


Now KMG text regarding vow of Bhimsen - words of Krishna to Balram after the end of final dual with Duryodhan in Shalya Parva:


The accomplishment of one's vow is one's duty. Formerly Bhima had vowed in the midst of the assembly that he would in great battle break with his mace the thighs of Duryodhana. The great Rishi Maitreya also, O scorcher of foes, had formerly cursed Duryodhana, saying, 'Bhima will, with his mace, break thy thighs!' In consequence of all this, I do not see any fault in Bhima! Do not give way to wrath, O slayer of Pralamva!

Edited by ShivangBuch - 14 years ago
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Posted: 14 years ago
#12

Now this is the text of Dron Parva from KMG translation when Arjun vows to kill Jaydrath:


Arjuna said,---'Truly do I swear that tomorrow I will slay Jayadratha! If from fear of death, he doth not forsake the Dhritarashtras, or implore our protection, or the protection of Krishna that foremost of men or of thine, O king, I shall assuredly slay him tomorrow! Forgetting his friendship for me, engaged in doing what is agreeable to Dhritarashtra's son, that wretch is the cause of the child's slaughter! Tomorrow I will slay him! Whoever they may be that will encounter me in battle tomorrow for protecting him, be it Drona, or Kripa, O king, I will cover them all with my arrow! Ye bulls among men, if I do not achieve even this in (tomorrow's) battle, let me not attain the region., reserved for the righteous, ye foremost of heroes! Those regions that are for them that slay their mothers, or for them that slay their fathers, or them that violate their preceptor's beds, or them that are vile and wicked, or them that cherish envy against the righteous, or them that speak ill of others or them that appropriate the wealth confidingly deposited with them by others, or them that are betrayers of trusts, or them that speak ill of wives enjoyed by them before, or them that have slain Brahmanas, or them that have killed kine, or them that eat sugared milk and rice, or food prepared of barley, or pot-herbs, or dishes prepared of milk, sesamum, and rice, or thin cakes of powdered barley fried in clarified butter or other kinds of cakes, or meat, without having dedicated the same to the gods,--even those regions shall speedily be mine if I do not slay Jayadratha!--Those regions to which they go that offer insults to Brahmanas devoted to the study of the Vedas, or otherwise worthy of respect, or to those that are their preceptors, (those regions shall speedily be mine if I do not slay Jayadratha!) That end which becomes theirs who touch Brahmanas or fire with the feet, that end which becomes theirs who throw phlegm and excreta and eject urine into water, even that miserable end shall be mine, if I do not slay Jayadratha! That end which is his who bathes (in water) in a state of nudity, or his who does not hospitably entertain a guest, that end which is theirs who receive bribes, speak falsehood, and deceive and cheat others, that end which is theirs who offend against their own souls, or who falsely utter praises (of others), or of those low wretches who eat sweetmeats in the sight of servants and sons and wives and dependents without sharing the same with those, that awful end shall be mine if I do not slay Jayadratha! That end which overtakes the wretch of ruthless soul who without supporting a righteous and obedient protege casts him off, or him who, without giving unto a deserving neighbour the offerings in Sraddhas, giveth them away unto those that deserve them not, that end which is his who drinks wine, or his who insults those that are worthy of respect, or his who is ungrateful, or his who speaketh ill of his brothers, that end shall soon be mine if I do not stay Jayadratha! The end of all those sinful persons whom I have not mentioned, as also of those whom I have mentioned, shall soon be attained by me, if after this night passes away, I do not slay Jayadratha tomorrow.


Listen now to another oath of mine! If tomorrow's sun set without my slaying that wretch, then even here I shall enter the blazing fire! Ye Asuras and gods and men. Ye birds and snakes, ye Pitris and all wanderers of the night, ye regenerate Rishis and celestial Rishis, ye mobile and immobile creatures, ye all that I have not mentioned, ye will not succeed in protecting my foe from me! If he enters the abode of the nether region, or ascends the firmament, or repairs to the celestials, or the realms of the Daityas, I shall still, with a hundred arrows, assuredly cut off, on the expiration of this night, the head of Abhimanyu's foe!'


"Sanjaya continued,--'Having uttered these words, Arjuna began to stretch Gandiva with both his arms. Transcending Arjuna's voice the sound of that bow rose and touched the very heavens. After Arjuna had taken that oath, Janarddana, filled with wrath, blew his conch, Panchajanya. And Phalguna blew Devadatta. The great conch Panchajanya, well filled with the wind from Krishna's mouth, produced a loud blare. And that blare made the regents of the cardinal and the subsidiary points, the nether regions, and the whole universe, to shake, as it happens at the end of the Yuga. Indeed after the high-souled Arjuna had taken the oath, the sound of thousands of musical instruments and loud leonine roars arose from the Pandava camp.

Edited by ShivangBuch - 14 years ago
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Posted: 14 years ago
#13

Now this is the KMG translation text of Bhishma Parva when Krishna rushes towards Bhishma with his Sudarshan (3rd day of war):


Beholding that those foremost of kings were flying together from the field of battle, and marking the mildness with which Partha fought, and beholding also that Bhishma was exerting himself very powerfully in battle, and that the Kurus were rushing from all sides, the younger brother of Vasava, the high-souled protector of all the Dasarhas, unable to bear it all, addressed the renowned grandson of Sini, and applauding him, said,--'O hero of Sini's race, they that are retreating, are, indeed, retreating. They that are yet staying, O thou of the Satwata race, let them also go away. Behold, I will soon throw Bhishma down from his car, and Drona also in battle, with all their followers. There is none in the Kuru host, O thou of the Satwata race, who is able to escape my angry self. Therefore, taking up my fierce discus, I will slay Bhishma of high vows. And slaying in battle those two foremost of car-warriors, viz., Bhishma along with his followers and Drona also, O grandson of Sini, I will gladden Dhananjaya, and the king, and Bhima, and the twin Aswins. And slaying all the sons of Dhritarashtra and all those foremost of kings who have embraced their side, I will joyfully furnish king Ajatasatru with a kingdom today.' Saying this, Vasudeva's son, abandoning (the reins of) the steeds, jumped down from the car, whirling with his (right) arm his discus of beautiful nave with edge sharp as a razor, effulgent as the sun and possessed of force equal to that of a thousand bolts of heaven. And making the earth tremble under his tread, the high-souled Krishna rushed impetuously towards Bhishma. And that grinder of foes, the younger brother of the chief of the gods, excited with wrath, rushed towards Bhishma staying in the midst of his troops, like a lion from desire of slaying upon a prince of elephants blinded with fury and staying proudly for the attack. And the end of his yellow garments waving in the air looked like a cloud charged with lightning in the sky. And that lotus of a discus called Sudarsana, having for its stalk the beautiful arm of Saurin, looked as beautiful as the primeval lotus, bright as the morning sun, which sprung from the navel of Narayana. And Krishna's wrath was the morning sun that caused that lotus to blow. And the beautiful leaves of that lotus were as sharp as the edge of a razor. And Krishna's body was the beautiful lake, and his (right) arm the stalk springing therefrom, upon which that lotus shone. And beholding the younger brother of Mahendra, excited with wrath and roaring loudly and armed with that discus, all creatures set out a loud wail, thinking that the destruction of the Kurus was at hand. And armed with his discus Vasudeva looked like the Samvarta fire that appears at the end of the Yuga for consuming the world. And the preceptor of the universe blazed up like a fierce comet risen for consuming all creatures. And beholding that foremost of bipeds, that divine personage, advancing armed with the discus, Santanu's son stationed on his car, bow and arrow in hand, fearlessly said, 'Come, Come, O Lord of the gods, O thou that hast the universe for thy abode. I bow to thee, O thou that art armed with mace, sword and Saranga. O lord of the universe, forcibly throw me down from this excellent car, O thou that art the refuge of all creatures in this battle. Slain here by thee, O Krishna, great will be my good fortune both in this world and the next. Great is the respect thou payest me, O Lord of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas. My dignity will be celebrated in the three worlds.' Hearing these words of Santanu's son, Krishna rushing impetuously towards him said, 'Thou art the root of this great slaughter on earth. Thou wilt behold Duryodhana slain to-day. A wise minister who treadeth in the path of righteousness should restrain a king that is addicted to the evil of gambling. That wretch again of his race who transgresseth duty should be abandoned as one whose intelligence hath been misdirected by destiny.--The royal Bhishma, hearing these words, replied unto the chief of the Yadus, saying,--Destiny is all powerful. The Yadus, for their benefit, had abandoned Kansa. I said this to the king (Dhritarashtra) but he minded it not. The listener that hath no benefit to receive becometh, for (his own) misery, of perverted understanding through (the influence of destiny).' Meanwhile, jumping down from his car, Partha, himself of massive and long arms, quickly ran on foot after that chief of Yadu's race possessed of massive and long arms, and seized him by his two hands. That first of all gods devoted in self, Krishna, was excited with rage. And therefore, though thus seized, Vishnu forcibly dragged Jishnu after him, like a tempest bearing away a single tree. The high-souled Partha, however, seizing them with great force his legs as he was proceeding at a quick pace towards Bhishma, succeeded, O king, in stopping him with difficulty at the tenth step. And when Krishna stopped, decked as he was with a beautiful garland of gold, cheerfully bowed down to him and said, 'Quell this wrath of thine. Thou art the refuge of the Pandavas, O Kesava. I swear, O Kesava, by my sons and uterine brothers that I will not withdraw from the acts to which I have pledged myself. O younger brother of Indra, at thy command I will certainly annihilate the Kurus.' Hearing that promise and oath of his, Janardana became gratified. And ever engaged as he was in doing what was agreeable to Arjuna--that best of the Kurus.--he once more, discus on arm, mounted on his car.


Now this is the KMG translation text of Bhishma Parva when Krishna rushes towards Bhishma once again (9th day of war):

"Then that delighter of the Yadavas, beholding the Pandava army breaking, reined the excellent car (that he guided), and addressing Vibhatsu the son of Pritha, said,--That hour is come, O Partha, which thou hadst hoped for. Strike now, O tiger among men, or thou wilt be deprived of thy senses. Formerly, O hero, thou saidst, O Partha, in that conclave of kings in Virata's city, in the presence also of Sanjaya, these words:--'I will slay all the warriors of Dhritarashtra's son, all of them with their followers, including, Bhishma and Drona, that would fight with me in battle--O son of Kunti, O chastiser of foes, make those words of thine true. Remembering the duty of a Kshatriya, fight, without any anxiety.' Thus addressed by Vasudeva, Arjuna hung down his head and looked askance at him. And Vibhatsu replied very unwillingly, saying, 'To acquire sovereignty with hell in the end, having slain those who should not be slain, or the woes of an exile in the woods,--(these are the alternatives). Which of these should I achieve? Urge the steeds, O Hrishikesa, I will do thy bidding. I will overthrow the Kuru grandsire Bhishma, that invincible warrior.'--Thus asked, Madhava urged those steeds of a silvery hue, to the spot where Bhishma, incapable of being looked at like the Sun himself, was staying. Then that large host of Yudhishthira rallied and came again to the fight, beholding the mighty-armed Partha proceeding for an encounter with Bhishma. Then Bhishma that foremost one among the Kurus, repeatedly roared like a lion. And he soon covered Dhananjaya's car with a shower of arrows. Within a trice that car of his with its steeds and charioteer, became entirely invisible in consequence of that thick shower of arrows. Vasudeva, however, without fear, mustering patience, and endued with great activity, urged those steeds mangled with Bhishma's shafts. Then Partha, taking up his celestial bow of twang loud as the roar of the clouds, caused Bhishma's bow to drop from his hands, cutting it (into fragments) by means of his sharp shafts. Then thy sire, the Kuru hero, whose bow had thus been cut off, stringed another large bow within the twinkling of the eye. Arjuna, however, excited with wrath, cut that bow also of his. The son of Santanu applauded that lightness of hand displayed by Arjuna, saying, 'Well done, Well done, O mighty-armed one. Well done, O son of Kunti.'--Having addressed him thus, Bhishma took up another beautiful bow in that battle, and shot many arrows at Partha's car. And Vasudeva showed great skill in the management of steeds, for, displaying the circling motion he baffled all those arrows (of Bhishma). Mangled with the arrows of Bhishma, those two tigers among men looked beautiful like two angry bulls marked with scratches of horns. Then that slayer of hostile heroes, viz., the mighty-armed Vasudeva of Madhu's race beholding that Partha was fighting mildly and that Bhishma was incessantly scattering his arrowy showers in battle, and that stationed between the two hosts, he latter was scorching everything like the Sun himself, smiting down the foremost of Yudhishthira's combatants, and, in fact, achieving feat on Yudhishthira's army like unto what happeneth at the end of the Yuga, could not any longer bear it. Abandoning then, O sire, Partha's steeds that looked like silver, and filled with wrath, that great lord of Yoga powers jumped down from that great car. Repeatedly roaring like a lion, the mighty Krishna of great energy and immeasurable splendour, the Lord of Universe, with eyes red as copper from rage, and having his bare arms alone for his weapons, rushed towards Bhishma, whip in hand, desirous of slaying him and seeming to split the universe itself with his tread. Beholding Madhava in the vicinity of Bhishma and about to fall upon him in that furious battle, the hearts of all the combatants seemed to be in a stupor. 'Bhishma is slain, Bhishma is slain.'--These loud exclamations were heard there, O king, caused by the fear inspired by Vasudeva. Robed in yellow silk, and himself dark as the lapis lazuli, Janarddana, when he pursued Bhishma, looked beautiful as a mass of clouds charged with lightning. Like a lion towards an elephant, or the leader of a bovine herd upon another of his species, that bull of Madhu's race, with a loud roar, impetuously rushed towards Bhishma. Beholding him of eyes like lotus petals (thus) rushing towards him in that battle, Bhishma began to fearlessly draw his large bow. And with a fearless heart he addressed Govinda, saying, 'Come, come, O thou of eyes like lotus petals. O God of the gods, I bow to thee. O best of the Satwatas, throw me down today in this great battle. O god, slain by thee in battle, O sinless one, great will be the good done to me, O Krishna, in every respect in the world. Amongst all, in the three worlds, great is the honour done to me today in battle, O Govinda. Strike me as thou pleasest, for I am thy slave, O sinless one.' Meanwhile, the mighty-armed Partha. quickly following Kesava behind, seized him by encircling him with his two arms. That best of male beings, viz., Krishna, of eyes like lotus petals, seized by Partha, still proceeded with great speed, bearing the latter away with him. The mighty Partha, that slayer of hostile heroes, however, forcibly catching hold of his legs, stopped Hrishikesa with great difficulty at the tenth step. Then Arjuna his dear friend, filled with sorrow, affectionately addressed Kesava, who was then sighing like a snake and whose eyes were troubled in wrath, saying, 'O thou of mighty arms, stop, O Kesava, it behoveth thee not to make those words false which thou hadst spoken before, viz., I will not fight. O Madhava, people will say that thou art a liar. All this burden resteth upon me. I will slay the grandsire. I swear, O Kesava, by my weapons, by truth, and my good deeds, that, O slayer of foes, I will do all by which the destruction of my foes may be achieved. Behold this very day that invincible and mighty car-warrior in the act of being thrown down by me, with the greatest ease, like the crescent moon at the end of the Yuga (when the destruction of the universe comes). Madhava, however, hearing these words of the high-souled Phalguni, spoke not a word, but in anger once more mounted upon the car.

Edited by ShivangBuch - 14 years ago
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Posted: 14 years ago
#14
Now this is the text from Valmiki Ramayan Ayodhya Kand:

Lakshmana informed Rama about that army which was full of horses, elephants and chariots decorated with flags and spoke the following words also. "O, honourable brother! Extinguish the fire. Let Seetha occupy a hiding place. Make your bow ready with a bow-string and arrows. Wear an armour."

Rama the tiger among men replied to Lakshmana, saying: "O, Lakshmana! See, whose army do you think is this?"

Hearing Rama's words, Lakshmana was irritated like a fire and spoke the following words, as though he was wishing to scorch the army. "Bharata, Kaikeyi's son, having obtained coronation and desirous of making the kingdom free of enemies, is coming here to kill both of us. It is clear. The gigantic and glorious tree with superb branches is shining over there prominently. The ensign bearing the device of a kovidara (pomegranate) tree is shining on that chariot."

Among the cavalry, some are cavorting merrily on their swift horses, while others are beaming with delight, mounted on their elephants. "O, warrior! Let us take up our bows and ascend the mountain or let us stay here itself, fully prepared with our weapons in our hands. O, Rama! Will that flag with the insignia of a Kovidara tree come into our subjugation? Can we see Bharata, because of whom a great misfortune has occurred to you, to Seetha and to me?"

"O, Rama the warrior! By the reason of whom you were deprived of an eternal kingdom, such Bharata as a foe who is coming here, deserves to be slain by me. I see no sin in slaying Bharata. None is charged with unlawfulness, if one strikes down an aggressor. Bharata is the assailant and his death is legitimate. He being dead, you will rule the entire earth. Let Kaikeyi, who is craving for the kingdom see, with great sorrow, her son slain by me today in battle, as a tree is crushed down by an elephant. I shall kill Kaikeyi too along with her friend the hunch-back and other accomplices. Let the earth today be relieved of a great sinner. Today in the concentrated fury that injustice has kindled I shall scatter the enemy - battalions as a fire consumes the dry wood."

"Today, with my sharpened arrows, I shall slay the bodies of my foes and make this forest of Chitrakuta overflow with blood. The elephants and horses whose breasts were laid open with my darts and the men too struck down by me, be dragged about by savage beasts. By killing Bharata together with his army in this great forest, I shall discharge my debt to my bow and arrows."


Rama on the other hand, pacifying Lakshmana (son of Sumitra), who was very much agitated and infatuated with anger, spoke the following words: "While Bharata, wielding a bow and highly wise-man himself is coming here, what is the use of a bow or sword with a shield? O, Lakshmana! Having promised to make our father's wish a reality. What shall I do with the kingdom by acquiring an ill-fame in killing Bharata who came here to see me? I should not enjoy the spoils obtained by slaying a relative or friend, like the partaking of a poisoned food."

"O, Lakshmana! It is for your sake I desire virtue, legitimately acquired wealth and pleasure or even the earth itself. I promise this to you. I desire the throne only for the protection and happiness of my brothers. I touch my weapon and swear this fact. This earth, bounded by the sea is not hard to obtain for me, O Lakshmana the excellent man! I do not indeed wish even the position of Indra by unrighteousness."

"If there be happiness that I could enjoy without Bharata or you or without Shatrughna, may it be without Shatrughna, may it be burnt to ashes by fire, O Lakshmana the honour-giver! I think Bharata was back to Ayodhya, with full of affection for his brothers. He is dearer to me than my life- he who is mindful of the duties of his race. Hearing of my exile and that I was wearing matted locks and the antelope skin, accompanied by Seetha and you, O most valiant of warriors, in his devotion towards me and due to the distress that troubles his mind, Bharata has come to see me. He has not come with any other motive."

"Getting angry with Kaikeyi his mother and speaking unkind and harsh words to her, the glorious Bharata after getting permission from our further, came here to bestow kingdom to me. This is the proper time for Bharata to come here and see us. He does not behave or even think unkindly towards us."

"Has Bharata at any time done any harm to you previously? What so the reason for you to be so apprehensive of Bharata now? Indeed, Bharata must not hear harsh or disagreeable word from your lips. If an affront is offered to him, it is offered to me!"

"O, Lakshmana! How should a son strike his father, even in a distress or a brother strike a brother who is as dear to him as his life? If you are uttering these words for the sake of the kingdom, I shall tell Bharata to give the kingdom to you, when I see him. When Bharata receives this command from me, "Cede the empire to him", he will answer, So, be it."

At these words spoken by his honourable brother, to whom he was devoted, Lakshmana, abashed, shrank into himself. Listening to these words Lakshmana ashamed, answered: "I think that our father Dasaratha came here to see you himself." Observing the embarrassed Lakshmana, Rama said, "I think the mighty armed Dasaratha came here to see us. Or rather, to my mind, as he knows that we have been accustomed to comfort, reflecting that we are dwelling in the forest, he wishes to take us home."

"The glorious Dasaratha, my father possibly will take back Seetha from the forest, she who has ever lived in the heart of prosperity. O, warrior! See those two excellent horses of noble breed, shining attractively and vying with the wind in swiftness. Here is that colossal elephant who is moving at the head of the army called Shatrunjaya, the aged companion of our sagacious father."

"O, Lakshmana the mighty armed! But I do not see that white heavenly canopy of our father, well known insignia in the world. An apprehension on this point is created in my mind. You get down from the top of the tree. Act on my word." Thus spoke the virtuous Rama to that Lakshmana. Descending from the top of that Sala tree, Lakshmana the victorious in battle, with joined palms, stood by the side of Rama.


And this is the link of Ram Charit Manas relevant part:

http://www.hindi.webdunia.com/religion/religion/hindu/ramcharitmanas/AyodyaKand/36.htm

http://www.hindi.webdunia.com/religion/religion/hindu/ramcharitmanas/AyodyaKand/37.htm


Edited by ShivangBuch - 14 years ago
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Posted: 14 years ago
#15

Lola, yayyy for making this thread. I've been looking fwd to it! Btw, you took the topic of oaths/promises to a whole other level...and I love the direction it's going. What I had in mind was way simpler. 😳 Thank you! 🤗

@ Aishu, Aditi & Debi - I loved reading your take on the topic! 🤗

@ Shivang - Wow awesome posts! Definitely very informative and insightful! So far I've only read the ones I 'liked', will be back later to read the rest! Thank you! 🤗

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Posted: 14 years ago
#16

Hmm so I wanted to discuss the term of promises/oaths in a very basic sense.

From what I gather the word 'vachana' is nowadays used simply to refer to a promise or an oath that one makes. But in Tretayuga and Dwaparyuga I see many times where it is used to mean 'speech' or 'utterance' i.e. verily the words that come out of your mouth! Think about it. Whenever we speak, don't the words we say bind us to something or some action, whether big or small? And by not standing to our utterance, aren't we "breaking a promise"?

I've been experimenting with this concept for a while now, where in a bid to be more...what should I say 'truthful'...I try to abide by the words I say and it's very tricky! I have to think very carefully before I say anything or react to anyone. In this age of Kaliyuga where lying and breaking promises has become like second nature to human beings do you all think that this is a futile idea? It is so easy to go back on your words and break you promises. I think nowadays promises and oaths have no meaning...you know how the saying goes: "promises are made to be broken!" where as in Tretayuga it was: "...PRAN jaye par VACHAN na jaye!"

Do share your views on this!

Another aspect I wanted to discuss is "Mitra" or "Mitra-Varuna".

In the previous Yugas word of mouth was considered solemn, something vetted by God in the form of Mitra. For the uninitiated, Mitra as mentioned in the Rigveda is considered as the patron divinity of honesty, friendship, contracts and meetings and when twinned with Varuna (the protector of ?t/moral order) they are considered the Gods of the oath. Mitra is represented as dawn whilst Varuna is represented by dusk. (for more info see Wiki)

Do you guys think that the fact that is devta is not recognized anymore or has become seemingly "extinct" is symbolic in any way for this age of Kaliyuga?

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Posted: 14 years ago
#17
You guys all made really interesting points and I am super excited to begin sharing my views this weekend... for now I'm updating the list of famous oaths in the first post, do keep them coming as and when you think of more 😃 And keep the wonderful insights coming as well, especially in terms of the morally muddy oaths that forced people to stay on the wrong side of dharma, like Bhishma's... am curious to see how we are able to align his devotion with his determination in his oath in times of trial and testing.
Edited by lola610 - 14 years ago
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Posted: 14 years ago
#18
wows that's an iteresting aspect! i've always greatly admired great figures from the Treta & Dvapur yug etc. for their steadfastness to their word---which is why i always leave me promises or words subject to change....i don't promise exactly something because there's a huge chance of it being broken....so...nice points you got there!!!!
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Posted: 14 years ago
#19
Thanks Vedo. Yes that I understood before your post. Even I haven't read the Chitrakoot post of Valmiki Ramayan myself and haven't read one of the two incidents of Krishna's rushing towards Bhishma fully.😆

Now regarding your new dimension Rigved, now it's my turn to acknowledge the insight and new dimension provided by you to the thread.👏 You are very right. In early eras, the importance of speech was very very significant (Kunti's order of dividing the BHIKSHA between all 5 brothers equally is the example - and that is of Dwapar only - the nearest era). Therefore, the effect of boons and curses were also very significant by even a normal person. It is said in Smritis that in each further era, the character of humans has fallen by one leg. In Krityug, it was of 4 legs meaning thereby the victory of dharma and pervading of dharma was 100%. Then gradual fall lead to Treta where dharma's legs left were 3/4th and so on.

Now VAANI has 4 types. Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama & Vaikhari. It is believed that sages of early eras used to live and act in the first two highest levels of speech and now they have almost gone. Boons & Curses all come from those deep spiritual level of speech inside.

Let me first put properly what I mean to say by giving the meanings of those types (Some of the words might be difficult to comprehend for all or they may or may not be relevant but I have the ready right for these types):

Vaikhari vaani

# Words coming out of the tongue grossly which can be heard by ears
# It is not sufficient for correct expressions of thoughts without the Madhyama accompanying it.
# Nevertheless, it gives people the basic good or bad image of an individual's character (Madhyama & Pashyanti can do the rest).
# It generates from the part between vocal code (Vishuddhi chakra) and heart (Anaahat chakra).

Madhyamaa vaani

# Movement of lips (Speech inside which only speaker can hear - subtle sound before coming out), Face expressions, Body language, Eye contact, Postures, Style of walking-sitting-standing, Classical dance, Acting, Deaf & Dumb game/drama
# More powerful in expressing thoughts than Vaikhari vaani
# It generates from the part between heart (Anaahat chakra) and Naabhi (Manipur chakra). If the words are not spoken out (Vaikhari if not used simultaneously), the words generated might stop, remain and submit in the vocal code only.
# In spiritual journey of man, this level has no significance. It can be helpful at professional level though to an actor (to some extent) or a leader and the like.

Pashyanti vaani

# Use of heart rather than brain - expressions of emotions, feelings, smile & tears - which naturally come as reaction
# Any speech is most powerful when words (vaikhari) and acting, movements & style (Madhyama) are supported by natural & genuine emotional expressions
# In 'Maunvrat', person deals with this 3rd level of speech only and doesn't use the 1st and shouldn't use the 2nd also (Ishaaron me baatcheet bhi nahi)
# Boon or curse coming out of this level (Spoken or unspoken through vaikhari) can have a greater effect. This is the foundation of 'Karm ka siddhant'. When we hurt someone, he may not speak out but the pain in his heart definitely sends curse signals (Madhyama) to the universe (Baddua) and comes back on us some day in future. Similar can be the case of people who please or entertain others, save the prestige or life of others or make charity (Dua).
# It generates from the part between Naabhi (Manipur chakra) and ending part of spine (Swaadhisthaan chakra).

Paraa vaani
# Speech of highest spiritual level - It doesn't have any words - only will. If a great sage or saint wish something from this level, that event inevitably occurs overriding all cause & effect rules. It is God's will. It creates events which we call miracles. It can give vision to blind. It can bring life back in a dead body (Sati Savitri).
#It generates from just below the end of spine (Mulaadhaar chakra).


Now, ordinarily when we say 'Truthful speech' we just restrict ourselves to words uttered (Yudhisthir to Drona) but actually Yudhishthir's expressions and inner thought accompanying explicit words - everything matters. That's why I had to precisely give my definition of truth of speech. I have also read earlier that there is difference between RUT and SATYA. As evident in Krishna's preach to Arjun & Yudhishthir, falsehood becomes truth when uttered for some noble or greater cause - rut. Similar Aapad-dharma teaching comes somewhere in Shanti Parva (the situations which Krishna counts to be appropriate for lie) in the words of Bhishma to Yudhishthir. We had great discussion on Orkut when Srujan (Orkut member) created that thread, in which we tried to gather all incidents in both epics where righteous characters lied in those situations. He created thread by listing 5 specific situations from Shanti Parva, when saying a lie is appropriate (more or less similar to what my yesterday's posts of Krishna give but posting again just because addition of a couple more situations):

Saying lie is appropriate (wordings are the way he identified the situations in Shanti Parva which I will try to find out myself)
1. in situation of JOKING
2. for the sake of CONFIDENTIALITY
3. successful accomplishment of MARRIAGE
4. for one's OWN SAFETY
5. when a GREATER CAUSE suffers otherwise

Somewhere in the continuity of discussion ahead, I may also post the list of those incidents posted on Orkut here at appropriate place.

Now I myself could find in Shanti Parva Section 24-25, the last three reasons in the words of Bhishma as follows (I don't totally understand a couple of them which I made italic - perhaps the PRECEPTOR one is close to professional confidentiality for the employer but preceptor is not same as employer). I have also made Krishna's words italic by editing my earlier posts.

A falsehood may be spoken for saving one's own life or that of another, or for the sake of one's preceptor, or for gratifying a woman, or for bringing about a marriage.


Some of those points are really debatable and presuming that the epic text is not tempered, the noteworthy point to be kept in mind is it is told either by Krishna or by Bhishma in presence of Krishna when Krishna only instructed Pandavas to take the teachings from Bhishma. And one or two reasons here or there are different at different places at random. For example to save a king, to save loss of property. Also to interpret some of the English words to satisfy ourselves whether their translation may be accurate for our own interpretation, we also need to see the Sanskrit texts.

Edited by ShivangBuch - 14 years ago
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Posted: 14 years ago
#20

Wow Shivang 👏, thank you for such an in depth and thorough explanation of Vaani. I enjoyed it very much and am looking fwd. to your future posts! 😃

Originally posted by: ShivangBuch

(I don't totally understand a couple of them which I made italic - perhaps the PRECEPTOR one is close to professional confidentiality for the employer but preceptor is not same as employer). I have also made Krishna's words italic by editing my earlier posts.

A falsehood may be spoken for saving one's own life or that of another, or for the sake of one's preceptor, or for gratifying a woman, or for bringing about a marriage.


Isin't 'Preceptor' used to refer to the Guru? So what this is actually saying is that falsehood may be spoken for the sake of our spiritual master.

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