Dharamkshetra discussion thread 2

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Brishti Sarkar

@CaptainSpark

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 10 years ago

#151

Originally posted by: panchaali

Those who say Bhagat Singh and Khudiram Bose were terrorist 😲

they will surely think Karna was a Vibhishan 😆

my taste and thought process will never match with people like these..

students of 10th and 12th also won't say such nonsense...

why would I waste my time and energy on them !!!!

they are not worthy of understanding any logic or explanation...

Still if you really want to know who was Vibhishan and who Karna was read Madhsudan Dutta's Meghnad Vadh Kavya and Rabindra Nath Tagore's Karna Kunit Sambad... [well these are included in Madhaymik and Higher Secondary Bengali syllabus. At least it were in my time; year 2002-2004] you can find these pieces across the web too...

I knew this was coming

You know what? I am that much educated. So yes, I have read both the pieces you informed me about. And I have studied in a school also. Bangali barite jonmechhi toh, tai Dadu thakuma etuku amake nijei porte sikhiyeche. Class 10 er jonno opekhha korte hoyni. although I had ICSE board.

By the way, these are works of fiction by poets. I think there is a book called Mahabharat, considering you have read it and you know much much more about it than I do or ever will be, I actually take that as the source when I talk about its characters and not Karna Kunti Sangbad or Meghnath VAdh Kavya. Maybe I am wrong. Just saying.

And I better not say anything about literature or Tagore or Madhusudan Dutta as then you people will misunderstand what I want to say and accuse me of Tagore bashing. Haha. Still since its my bad I cannot stay without replying to anything debatable (I consider you worth debating with).

Just few points.

a) A poem cannot be used to prove the point of view of the writer. I am not saying Tagore hated Karna but you can neither say he loved nor hated until you show me a serious article where he says so. I can say Sunil Gangopadhyay loves Karna as I have read his article where he clearly says Karna is my favourite character.

b) Even if Tagore, Bankim, Sharat Chandra LOVED Karna (which you cannot prove just like by picking up Tagore's Gandharir Abedon or Arjun Chitrangada I cannot say read that to know who Arjun was..read that to know ultimate about Dury or Gandhari.) I do not have to agree with Tagore or Madhusudan Dutta.

I am not that illiterate by the way. I have somehow managed to study and go deep into theories. Maybe I am not worth it. Surely I am not. But worth is seldom taken into account, Karna is the proof...

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Arijit

@Arijit007

Sparkler

Posted: 10 years ago

#152

hmm, nice counter vrishti, and panchali, please read the epic.

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Chiillii

@Chiillii

Navigator

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

#153

Nice one brishti

Sadly we will keep getting people always who never read the original epic for which translations are available in every Indian language

But read works of fiction based on the Mahabharata and believe the charachters as portrayed by these to be the real ones

Who can convince such people that ved vyas did not depict Karna as tragic hero...or Draupadi as a vamp..vibhishan was a hero who stood up against his own brother for helpless woman, who tried to drive sense into his brothers head that his bad deeds will destroy his family and when he didn't listen chose to follow his conscience...

These people will never understand that vyasa is the author of Mahabharata and not Ravindranath Tagore

And valmiki the author of Ramayana

Like arijit bhai says.. Panchali read the epic, there will be no need for a debate

Read ramayan as well as Mahabharata

Edited by Adishakti - 10 years ago

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Sanskruthi

@Sanskruthi

Sparkler

+ 8

Posted: 10 years ago

#154

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark
I think he did not care for Karna kingdom because he spent most of the time in HP with Duryodhan.. This is not the sign of a good king actually... We know nothing about his administration etc.. So how did he care for Karna kingdom? It is not mentioned anywhere but it is just common sense... Semanti is saying that because Karna spent all his life in HP and also I would like to add if u devote ur life to killing another rival or prove urself better than him then you will not have time to care for your kingdom and with great power comes responsibility... 😊

So these r jst conclusions driven nd u say it right we don't know abt administration powers of anyone! ...
waise In Sabha Parva during their digvijay when Bhim takes over champa its said that he marched ahead defeating Karna so can I say that Karna as there for his territory when it needed him?😊
and there is no mention of Karna 'having complete fun' at HP he is mentioned in strategies and planning bt he does go missing in some cases...also I will add ki if staying 24*7 in ur own kingdom and looking after it makes u think its ur pocket-money that u can gamble away it was better Karna wasn't there😛

and about Karna and Arjuna its the way you look at it see if u want to stand first in the class u won't really pick up an average student nd compete him, bt it would put u in direct competition with with the one who comes first! It would have been stupid if Karna would have challenged other Ps or even the Kurus to prove him as the archer... the rivalry betn them gets intensified after DH I don't really find it such serious till then though they bth throw verbal assaults at each other.. also both reciprocated their rivalry equally look If Karna asked Brahamastra for Killing Arjuna, Arjuna too asked for Pashupata astra citing a reason to kill Karna! and I don't personally think that Karna or Arjuna 24*7 thought only of killing each other they both had their other job to do as well... nd yeah I agree at the point that even b4 the two actually met or b4 their first encounter in MB its written that Karnas rivalry was nly with Arjuna CE also says this bt here again I would mention a thing that Karna is referred as a Suta even b4 he is adopted by Radha or Adiratha don't it sound strange? seems like Vyasa believed that people already know this story😆[This actually I got to know after reading an analytical study on Karna...the sanskrit version readers can confirm or correct me😊 I miss Jamy😭]

PS...that thing in red I know it makes no sense😆 bringing other characters in middle to justify my character or put arops on other character is not my favrt Cadbury silk its cadbury fruit nd nuts which I dnt like though it might seem to be tasty for others nd I really dnt have problems with what others eat..😳 nd thats the thing I edited to add spice😈 nd I know I sound terribly foolish there in that red crap🤣🤣

PPS. Believe me I dnt hate any Ps

Edited by .Sanskruti - 10 years ago

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Sanskruthi

@Sanskruthi

Sparkler

+ 8

Posted: 10 years ago

#155

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra
Was stalking. not intended to comment.😆

😆 😆 sometimes I think u take wisest decisions😆

Edit: there is something in above post for u to dissect😛

Edited by .Sanskruti - 10 years ago

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Sanskruthi

@Sanskruthi

Sparkler

+ 8

Posted: 10 years ago

#156

Originally posted by: panchaali

my taste and thought process will never match with people like these..

students of 10th and 12th also won't say such nonsense...

why would I waste my time and energy on them !!!!

@Panchu dii.. wht u mean by this that such nonsense nly 10th /12th students can say😭 I m in 12th nd I will never call them as terrorists believe me😭

BTW I got promoted to 12th😃

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Brishti Sarkar

@CaptainSpark

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 10 years ago

#157

Originally posted by: .Sanskruti

So these r jst conclusions driven nd u say it right we don't know abt administration powers of anyone! ...
waise In Sabha Parva during their digvijay when Bhim takes over champa its said that he marched ahead defeating Karna so can I say that Karna as there for his territory when it needed him?😊
and there is no mention of Karna 'having complete fun' at HP he is mentioned in strategies and planning bt he does go missing in some cases...also I will add ki if staying 24*7 in ur own kingdom and looking after it makes u think its ur pocket-money that u can gamble away it was better Karna wasn't there😛

and about Karna and Arjuna its the way you look at it see if u want to stand first in the class u won't really pick up an average student nd compete him, bt it would put u in direct competition with with the one who comes first! It would have been stupid if Karna would have challenged other Ps or even the Kurus to prove him as the archer... the rivalry betn them gets intensified after DH I don't really find it such serious till then though they bth throw verbal assaults at each other.. also both reciprocated their rivalry equally look If Karna asked Brahamastra for Killing Arjuna, Arjuna too asked for Pashupata astra citing a reason to kill Karna! and I don't personally think that Karna or Arjuna 24*7 thought only of killing each other they both had their other job to do as well... nd yeah I agree at the point that even b4 the two actually met or b4 their first encounter in MB its written that Karnas rivalry was nly with Arjuna CE also says this bt here again I would mention a thing that Karna is referred as a Suta even b4 he is adopted by Radha or Adiratha don't it sound strange? seems like Vyasa believed that people already know this story😆[This actually I got to know after reading an analytical study on Karna...the sanskrit version readers can confirm or correct me😊 I miss Jamy😭]

PS...that thing in red I know it makes no sense😆 bringing other characters in middle to justify my character or put arops on other character is not my favrt Cadbury silk its cadbury fruit nd nuts which I dnt like though it might seem to be tasty for others nd I really dnt have problems with what others eat..😳 nd thats the thing I edited to add spice😈 nd I know I sound terribly foolish there in that red crap🤣🤣

PPS. Believe me I dnt hate any Ps

I cant see colours for a minor problem in my PC so I don't know which part u marked in red...

Firstly can you prove your point where you said Arjuna wanted Pashupatastra to kill Karna...I am not saying you are wrong but I want citations to gain knowledge as I was unaware of this fact...😊

By the way apart from that PAshupatastra incident is afrer VH and Exile. In fact, after a lot of things. Karna's Brahmastra incident was in GURUKUL by the way.

Now coming back to point about Karna being a good/bad king. I would like to say that if my facts cannot prove Karna a bad king, then yours cannot prove the counter either... Actually this is not even important as if it would be there would be heavy hints and citations in the epic to suggest for either of the options..Good or bad king. But seems like we botha re only basing our opinion/conclusion on assumption from reading the text.

Addition what I was trying to say is that Karna I feel wasn't a good king as Maybe I have overlooked the citaitons you said. And also, he wasn't a part of which which of Dury's crimes against Ps? Again, I just want to know what I don't already know... so if you could help me by saying which incidents you meant..

as through out the epic I have seen Karna with Dury be it in good or bad situations.. so its hard to believe Karna was in his kingdom. And only protecting your kingdom is not enough by the way.. 😊

Now finally coming to the gambling part. Not every emperor who stayed in their kingdom and administered it well gambled it away. Yudhishthir was the only one and why did u pull this in? There are many many many mor ekings in epic who did not gamble their empire.

Jst coz Yudhi did its better Karna doesn't stay in Anga? Nobody was telling him to be like Yudhi or any gambler for that matter. I was just saying he is not a good king.

I think you are being delusional with Yudhi here too by the way..but not getting into that. lets keep the debate to the point.

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Brahmaputra

@Brahmaputra

Sparkler

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

#158

Removed😆

Edited by Brahmaputra - 10 years ago

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Brahmaputra

@Brahmaputra

Sparkler

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

#159

Originally posted by: .Sanskruti

😆 😆 sometimes I think u take wisest decisions😆

Edit: there is something in above post for u to dissect😛

Always Kabhi Kabhi I do that.😆

Where did you find vyasa uncle going crazy calling karna a suta even before Karna met the Suta? Let me know the parva at least. I will check & say.😛 But I will be replying late as I am busy reading for exams.

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Brahmaputra

@Brahmaputra

Sparkler

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

#160

1. There are only two references to Karna-Parashurama story; first in Karna parva & 2nd in Shanti Parva. Karna Parva narration does not say Karna approached Parashurama only to learn Brahmastra to fight with Arjuna. Also, in his last duel with Arjuna, Karna successfully used Brahmastra thrice. Hence the Shanti Parva narration along with Karna's curses has to be an interpolation. However, Shanti Parva narration does not say Karna wanted to learn Brahmastra only to kill Arjuna. He simply says he wanted to fight with Arjuna.

Karna. one day approached Drona in private and said these words unto him, 'I desire to be acquainted with the Brahma weapon, with all its mantras and the power of withdrawing it, for I desire to fight Arjuna. Without doubt, the affection thou bearest to every one of thy pupils is equal to what thou bearest to thy own son. I pray that all the masters of the science of weapons may, through thy grace, regard me as one accomplished in weapons!

In any case, there are enough evidences to prove Karna was never a student of drona.

2. Arjuna did not ask Kirata Shiva to give him Pashupata. Arjuna asked for Brahmashiras instead, to defeat Karna, Bhishma, Drona & Kripa.

"Arjuna said, 'O illustrious god having the bull for thy sign, if thou wilt grant me my desire, I ask of thee, O lord that fierce celestial weapon wielded by thee and called Brahmasira--that weapon of terrific prowess which destroyeth, at the end of the Yuga the entire universe--that weapon by the help of which, O god of gods, I may under thy grace, obtain victory in the terrible conflict which shall take place between myself (on one side), and Karna and Bhishma and Kripa and Drona (on the other)--that weapon by which I may consume in battle Danavas and Rakshasas and evil spirits and Pisachas and Gandharvas and Nagas--that weapon which when hurled with Mantras produceth darts by thousands and fierce-looking maces and arrows like snakes of virulent poison, and by means of which I may fight with Bhishma and Drona and Kripa and Karna of ever abusive tongue, O illustrious destroyer of the eyes of Bhaga, even this is my foremost desire, viz., that I may be able to fight with them and obtain success.'

Bhava replied, 'O powerful one. I will give to thee that favourite weapon of mine called the Pasuputa. O son of Pandu, thou art capable of holding, hurling, and withdrawing it. Neither the chief himself of the gods, nor Yama, nor the king of the Yakshas, nor Varuna, nor Vayu, knoweth it. How could men know anything of it? But, O son of Pritha, this weapon should not be hurled without adequate cause; for if hurled at any foe of little might it may destroy the whole universe. In the three worlds with all their mobile and immobile creatures, there is none who is incapable of being slain by this weapon. And it may be hurled by the mind, by the eye, by words, and by the bow.'"

But, I personally consider Arjuna's words as an interpolation for the below reasons.

1. Arjuna asked for Brahmashiras but he got Pashupata.

2. AFAIR, Arjuna had already been given Brahmashiras by Drona when he saved Drona from crocodile during his stay in gurukula. So why should he ask for the same weapon again?

3. There is no chance for Arjuna to be known already that he would fight against Kripa in future. Kripa switched sides much later.

4. They look odd among Shiva's words. But if we read Shiva's words alone, they look continuous.

Instead, I see it like Arjuna was afraid when he realised who he had been fighting with, but Shiva consoled him and gave him Pashupata out of his compassion, without being asked, pleased with Arjuna's warrior skills.

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