Developing country? - Page 7

yes u did say that. dont know why. on one hand u've been maintaining even lately that it's a valid indicator. on the other, u're out proclaiming it's a joke that's carried on too far, just when u decide it has.😊

No comments! This point has been addressed numerous times in back pages. If the intent is still hazy then so be it.

but if u are serious, consider this. for something to be an indicator, it shld typically be reliable, measurable, reflective etc imo., else we could fill pages with wonderful stories about where the stuff fills up.😆 Dont know how one would propose even measuring/ quantifying the underlying matter here, but then what do i know.😉😆

Typically be measurable - YES. But then we can't ignore other non-measurable indicators just because we can't assess them statistically. For example, we are not going to ignore the street smartness of a successful person just because it is not measurable like book intelligence. But many a times we see a high correlation between street smartness and book smartness...again, generally speaking.

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This brings us back to that "Something else" category Raj had in his very first post here. If something is in one's face day in and day out then how can one ignore it just because it is not measurable?

How does one measure corruption? Isn't it an already established fact that it still is lot more prevalent in developing countries even though it's not measurable. Isn't it reflective of the socio-economic aspect of a developing country?

Similarly, state of public facilities is in one's face day in and day out when one travells around the globe. It may not be measurable but it sure is reflective of the economic status of a country. As far as being reliable, well, if you see more of something in one particular category of countries you do start relying on what that something reflects then imo. I don't think an indicator needs to be ruled out just because they are non-measurable.

This brings me to someother "indicators" that may be non-measurable but thery are seen more in developing world than the developed...and this is where I see the developing countries scoring over the developed countries. Yes, I am talking about the cultural differences here.

Generally speaking, one would observe that families are lot more closer....lot more tight knit...in developing countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, China, Sri Lanka than in a developed country like U.S, U.K, Canada. I am not talking about the NRI families settled in the developed countries here as they do tend to bring the close knit family culture with them when they migrate.

Now, why would we see this difference. My take on it is that it's a reflection of the socio-economic state. Typically, there's little or no support from the government in one's old age or during the time one is unemployed. Due to over population, there are not enough jobs for every one either. Given this scenario, the only people one can count on in the hour of need are their own kith and kin. Since governments are pro-actively taking adequate care of its citizens in developing countries, the people over there don't need to rely as much on their families as ina developing nation.

Non-measurable...yes...but food for thought for that "something else" category, I think. Will be adding more of some more of these non-measurable but obvious stuff later.

Okay, for debate's sake, I would like to hear members opinions on the following trends and how do they reflect the developmental status of a country:

Certain Social Aspects - may be not easily measurable but trends could be observed and they do impact the quality of life:

1. Religious fanaticism

2. Women's status in society/Gender discrimination

3. Practices like female infanticide, dowery deaths

4. Rowdy behavior on streets

5. Lawlessness

6. Anything else that comes to your mind.

Is it safer to say that we see more of these in developing nations than in developed nations?

Why would they be more prevalent in one vs. the other? Please keep in mind the "general over all" scenario. Talking about the "norm" here....not some specific exceptions.

How do they tie back to other statistical indicators like per capita income, employment level, education level etc.?

Looking forward to reading your views 😊

How about the state of professional sports? Can it be tied to the developmnet status of a country?

Do you think the opportunities to excel in the field of competitive sports are far less in developing countries than develpoed countries?

Is it because of not enough rewards being offered that demotivates youngsters to consider professional sports as a career?

Is it because not enough people go out and buy tickets to catch any other game except cricket?

Any other factors that come to mind for pathetic state of competitive/professional sports in developing nations?

Disclaimer: I am not saying sports is more important than basic necessities....just wanted to clarify 😆

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

This brings us back to that "Something else" category Raj had in his very first post here. If something is in one's face day in and day out then how can one ignore it just because it is not measurable?

How does one measure corruption? Isn't it an already established fact that it still is lot more prevalent in developing countries even though it's not measurable. Isn't it reflective of the socio-economic aspect of a developing country?

Similarly, state of public facilities is in one's face day in and day out when one travells around the globe. It may not be measurable but it sure is reflective of the economic status of a country. As far as being reliable, well, if you see more of something in one particular category of countries you do start relying on what that something reflects then imo. I don't think an indicator needs to be ruled out just because they are non-measurable.

at the end of the day, one still needs to put out something quantifiable, a rank, an index, an ordering that people can go by. we cant consider countries underdeveloped or developing simply because someone wants to hold their nose up and say they stink.

even questions such as happiness index that researchers have tried to develop indicators for have been fraught with issues of bias, unintentional or otherwise. it reflects the bias of the researcher who's putting together the survey. it is also hard to verify. people lie about such things on surveys. Which is why people try to use proxy indicators that can get at the same things but using verifiable objective standards.

as for corruption, how's that tied to traditional development status? japanese and italian politicians had been crooked and corrupt for the longest time, but they're not considered developing nations, are they? there has been mass-scale deceit in the US subprime markets, what of that? people lying on documentation to get loans, with a little help from the mortgage brokers. the level of that deception would put many of your corrupt countries to shame.

u're welcome to come up with all kinds of indicators of course. maybe even 100s of them. dont know that it wld convince some of us as to who is developing and who is not. whenever we produce unsorted comprehensive lists, we start producing raw data, realms of it, that become hard to interpret and stop making sense imo.

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

Okay, for debate's sake, I would like to hear members opinions on the following trends and how do they reflect the developmental status of a country:

Certain Social Aspects - may be not easily measurable but trends could be observed and they do impact the quality of life:

1. Religious fanaticism

2. Women's status in society/Gender discrimination

3. Practices like female infanticide, dowery deaths

4. Rowdy behavior on streets

5. Lawlessness

6. Anything else that comes to your mind.

Is it safer to say that we see more of these in developing nations than in developed nations?

Why would they be more prevalent in one vs. the other? Please keep in mind the "general over all" scenario. Talking about the "norm" here....not some specific exceptions.

How do they tie back to other statistical indicators like per capita income, employment level, education level etc.?

Looking forward to reading your views 😊

I think except for gender discrimination, almost all others will fit in the table I mentioned re corruption. There was a report yesterday on all major newspaper websites about how women are facing discrimination everywhere in the world. However, having said that I quote from the HRW website which clearly shows that gender discrimination, and sexual crimes against women are more rampant in developing countries.

"Millions of women throughout the world live in conditions of abject deprivation of, and attacks against, their fundamental human rights for no other reason than that they are women.

Combatants and their sympathizers in conflicts, such as those in Sierra Leone, Kosovo, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Afghanistan, and Rwanda, have raped women as a weapon of war with near complete impunity. Men in Pakistan, South Africa, Peru, Russia, and Uzbekistan beat women in the home at astounding rates, while these governments alternatively refuse to intervene to protect women and punish their batterers or do so haphazardly and in ways that make women feel culpable for the violence. As a direct result of inequalities found in their countries of origin, women from Ukraine, Moldova, Nigeria, the Dominican Republic, Burma, and Thailand are bought and sold, trafficked to work in forced prostitution, with insufficient government attention to protect their rights and punish the traffickers. In Guatemala, South Africa, and Mexico, women's ability to enter and remain in the work force is obstructed by private employers who use women's reproductive status to exclude them from work and by discriminatory employment laws or discriminatory enforcement of the law. In the U.S., students discriminate against and attack girls in school who are lesbian, bi-sexual, or transgendered, or do not conform to male standards of female behavior. Women in Morocco, Jordan, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia face government-sponsored discrimination that renders them unequal before the law..."

This is certainly not a comprehensive list as it fails to mention several other culprit nations including India, but at a glance it is obvious who heads the list here, too.

Originally posted by: SholaJoBhadkey

I think except for gender discrimination, almost all others will fit in the table I mentioned re corruption. There was a report yesterday on all major newspaper websites about how women are facing discrimination everywhere in the world. However, having said that I quote from the HRW website which clearly shows that gender discrimination, and sexual crimes against women are more rampant in developing countries.

"Millions of women throughout the world live in conditions of abject deprivation of, and attacks against, their fundamental human rights for no other reason than that they are women.

Combatants and their sympathizers in conflicts, such as those in Sierra Leone, Kosovo, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Afghanistan, and Rwanda, have raped women as a weapon of war with near complete impunity. Men in Pakistan, South Africa, Peru, Russia, and Uzbekistan beat women in the home at astounding rates, while these governments alternatively refuse to intervene to protect women and punish their batterers or do so haphazardly and in ways that make women feel culpable for the violence. As a direct result of inequalities found in their countries of origin, women from Ukraine, Moldova, Nigeria, the Dominican Republic, Burma, and Thailand are bought and sold, trafficked to work in forced prostitution, with insufficient government attention to protect their rights and punish the traffickers. In Guatemala, South Africa, and Mexico, women's ability to enter and remain in the work force is obstructed by private employers who use women's reproductive status to exclude them from work and by discriminatory employment laws or discriminatory enforcement of the law. In the U.S., students discriminate against and attack girls in school who are lesbian, bi-sexual, or transgendered, or do not conform to male standards of female behavior. Women in Morocco, Jordan, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia face government-sponsored discrimination that renders them unequal before the law..."

This is certainly not a comprehensive list as it fails to mention several other culprit nations including India, but at a glance it is obvious who heads the list here, too.

Thanks for sharing SJB. Yes, just like the corrupt countries list, this one also makes it obvious who heads the list.

@ cb:

There might be certain exceptions here or there, like a handful of developing countries having certain instances of corruption, but what we are focusing here is the norm seen generally and how prevalent it is in a developing country vis a vis developed country. The issues that I listed in my post are lot more prevalent and wide spread in developing countries and affect the common people on a larger scale in their day to day life.

Just wanted to clarify it before we get stuck on an exception here or a remote occurrence there. Key is how prevalent an issue is in ALL walks of life.

Issues are issues are issues. They can be lined up from most to least important or can be categorized as quanitifiable or non-quantifiable. Some may acknowledge them and some may not acknowledge them. That doesn't make those issues to just go away. All the issues are collectively reflected in the status of a country. Most are inter-related and could be tied back to various economic measures. I am just brain storming here. Getting the list of as many possible "indiacators" as we can think of that may fit into that "Something else" category Raj had in his post.

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

Other point I would like to make is that there might be certain exceptions here or there, like a handful of developing countries having certain instances of corruption, but what we are focusing here is the norm seen generally and how prevalent it is in a developing country vis a vis developed country. The issues that I listed in my post are lot more prevalent and wide spread in developing countries and affect the common people on a larger scale in their day to day life.

Just wanted to clarify it before we get stuck on an exception here or a remote occurrence there. Key is how prevalent an issue is in ALL walks of life.

Issues are issues are issues. They can be lined up from most to least important or can be categorized as quanitifiable or non-quantifiable. Some may acknowledge them and some may not acknowledge them. That doesn't make those issues to just go away. All the issues are collectively reflected in the status of a country. Most are inter-related and could be tied back to various economic measures.

when u have a country that is supposed to be at the top or near-top of the list ranked low down, it does throw the entire methodology into question. in some of the exact same lists that u've come up with, the US ranks low. even japan and italy would rank low unless they are massaging the data. human rights watch even cites the US for various human rights violations. now if that's the kind of lists one considers useful, then i suppose most countries would be better off following the US lead in terms of being ranked low on those lists.

outliers in statistics are very important. it's those high-sigma deviation events that explain the mess people have gotten into with the subprime fiasco. we also use extreme-value theories in all walks of life and most people dont even realize that, starting from when we design for stress tests etc to protect buildings against earthquakes to developing financial pricing/ risk management models. cant dismiss extremes just because they are inconvenient to explain or dont fit our norms.

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

Okay, for debate's sake, I would like to hear members opinions on the following trends and how do they reflect the developmental status of a country:

Certain Social Aspects - may be not easily measurable but trends could be observed and they do impact the quality of life:

1. Religious fanaticism

2. Women's status in society/Gender discrimination

3. Practices like female infanticide, dowery deaths

4. Rowdy behavior on streets

5. Lawlessness

6. Anything else that comes to your mind.

Is it safer to say that we see more of these in developing nations than in developed nations?

Why would they be more prevalent in one vs. the other? Please keep in mind the "general over all" scenario. Talking about the "norm" here....not some specific exceptions.

How do they tie back to other statistical indicators like per capita income, employment level, education level etc.?

Looking forward to reading your views 😊

G. your list of unmeasurables up there could be viewed as derivatives of measurables (bolded above) that Raj and cb are talking about. If marked improvement can be made and seen in the economic indicators, there would be a direct improvement in social aspect that you are talking about, barring religion and gender discrimination to a lesser extent. There is a lot more social freedom in Europe compared to the USA but they have not been able to take no. 1 spot so I would agree with CB here that measurable indicators carry more weight in overall assessment. 😛 Simply put, better economics have power to uplift an individual or a nation.