1984 Attack on Golden Temple - Page 2

Originally posted by: chatbuster

yaar, u are again getting into the hen that laid the egg that fed the boy that played with the cat that scratched the back kinda tale here.😆 i know it's fashionable to say that she created the problem, but it's like saying the US is wrong in attacking afghanistan because somewhere they supported the mujaheedin in a rightful cause against soviet occupation. how on earth can someone control how others turn out? 😕😊

it's not fashionable, it is the fact. U.S. was not wrong in attacking afganistan but they were wrong in supporting mujahideens to curb russians in the first place....or supporting saddam initially and rt now...supporting musharraf. if u.s. did not have that enimity they had with russia, would they have supported mujahedeens then...naheen na. see, what starts out with an evil intent usually ends in something even worst. doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

one can very well predict how the other will turn out based on their ideologies. shaking hands and forming allies with shady people just to fulfill one's shady political agendas is not the right move to make in the first place. kantey bo-ogey toh phool toh naheen ugeyngey na. that's all i'm saying here. how can ig or u.s. claim that they did not know how the akalis or mujahedeens will turn out later? did they not know their ideologies at the very beginning?

that said; let's just focus on IG here. let's not bring other premises in this debate.

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

it's not fashionable, it is the fact.

sure.😆 fact?😆

U.S. was not wrong in attacking afganistan but they were wrong in supporting mujahideens to curb russians in the first place....or supporting saddam initially and rt now...supporting musharraf. if u.s. did not have that enimity they had with russia, would they have supported mujahedeens then...naheen na. see, what starts out with an evil intent usually ends in something even worst. doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

what was the evil intent there? opposing the soviets?😕

and i think your words "even worst" says it all. cant evaluate two actions on an equal footing. one is "worst" than the other, isnt it?😉

one can very well predict how the other will turn out based on their ideologies.

isnt this monday-morning quarterbacking? if things were so predictable, why cldnt we have those jyotishis tell IG what wld happen?😆

shaking hands and forming allies with shady people just to fulfill one's shady political agendas is not the right move to make in the first place. kantey bo-ogey toh phool toh naheen ugeyngey na. that's all i'm saying here. how can ig or u.s. claim that they did not know how the akalis or mujahedeens will turn out later? did they not know their ideologies at the very beginning?

hmmm, cld anyone predict that the mujahidin wld turn against the US? yes? i think if someone could, maybe they shld get into some wild-prediction game, no?😆

that said; let's just focus on IG here. let's not bring other premises in this debate.

why not? it's been useful in drilling the point home. 😉😆

Originally posted by: chatbuster

no, it's not drilling the point home. in fact u missed the main point of my post. we can run around in loops saying the same things over and over again and dragging in the u.s., jyotishis, quarterbacks and what not. it still doesn't justify IG's initial actions - saanp ko doodh pilana. later on, she ended up taking that snake out...but it was too late. too much damage has been done by then which could have been avoided if she was not busy playing the politics of self interest in the beginning.

if traders can predict which way the market might move based on their models etc with reasonable confidence, why can't a politician predict how his/her actions will impact the future? after all this is what rajneeti all about....hai na. do traders go to jyotishis for where to invest their money...naheen na. then why discount the leaders? predicting what impact their actions will have on future events is an integral part of politics. politicians can't succeed if they do not foresee that impact. they may chose to ignore that impact based on immediate benefit they get out of it but they do know what to expect.

IG was not duffer. she was a shrewd and very smart woman. no way can one claim that she could not have predicted how akali movement will turn out down the road😊 ussey achhey sey pata thha woh kin log ko apney faidey key liye istemaal ker rahee hai.

Originally posted by: Yeah

Hi guys...

I'm not sure if you've discussed this before...

But I was speaking to 2 friends the other day...both were Sikh and I'm hindu...

one was saying that she thinks Indira Gandhi was completely wrong in attacking the Golden Temple and that Bhindrewala...was not at all a terrorist...

Whereas my other Sikh friend said that he was a terrorist and that Gandhi was right in attacking the Golden Temple...

When I said that they found girls, ammunitions wihtin the Golden Temple..she refused to believe me.... And I also told her about SEVERAL youtube videos where several ppl have shown sooo much hatred against Hindus...it's heart-breeaking....

My question is.... What are your views on Indira Gandhi's actions? Where do you stand?

Also, why do you think that there is such a difference in opinion between the two ppl of the same religion?

Also, I ALWAYS thought that Hindus and Sikhs were at peace...but those youtube videos were complete shockers....why do you think there is still soo much contempt even among the NEW generation of Sikhs and Hindus? Is the peace which I've always seen between Sikhs and Hindus a farace...and hidden behind the curtain is utter hatred?

*I'm not entirely sure if we are allowed to discuss this. If we are not please feel free to close this topic. This topic has always caught my interest and wanted to know what other people thought. I really hope I haven't offended anyone.*

Views from post addressing some points raised here ... https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/debate-mansion/762418/indira-gandhi ... personally have nothing to add... there is more to think about rather then visiting what was done..

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

no, it's not drilling the point home. in fact u missed the main point of my post. we can run around in loops saying the same things over and over again and dragging in the u.s., jyotishis, quarterbacks and what not. it still doesn't justify IG's initial actions - saanp ko doodh pilana. later on, she ended up taking that snake out...but it was too late. too much damage has been done by then which could have been avoided if she was not busy playing the politics of self interest in the beginning.

if traders can predict which way the market might move based on their models etc with reasonable confidence, why can't a politician predict how his/her actions will impact the future?

what can i say, but u got that wrong. most traders try to predict market moves and most traders ultimately lose their shirts. there's a difference between arbitraging markets and predicting. imo predicting the markets with anything more than a slight edge is next to an impossibility. yes, we get scam artists all the time on TV who claim to have foresight. by and large, they are full of BS. the principles that do work are arbitrage but that's primarily not a prediction game.

after all this is what rajneeti all about....hai na. do traders go to jyotishis for where to invest their money...naheen na. then why discount the leaders? predicting what impact their actions will have on future events is an integral part of politics. politicians can't succeed if they do not foresee that impact. they may chose to ignore that impact based on immediate benefit they get out of it but they do know what to expect.

IG was not duffer. she was a shrewd and very smart woman. no way can one claim that she could not have predicted how akali movement will turn out down the road😊 ussey achhey sey pata thha woh kin log ko apney faidey key liye istemaal ker rahee hai.

i think we have a fundamental difference in terms of what is reasonably predictable and what is not. imo life's not a mathematical model where one can predict with certainty that 4 follows 2 plus 2. but no interest in getting on with this.😊 because if someone is smart enuff to predict the kind of things u thing they shld be able to, then they shld also be smart enuff to predict they'll get assasinated. also, let's not go confusing someone's lack of leadership and/ or foresight ability, even if that were the case, with another person's evil intent and actions.

what can i say, but u got that wrong. most traders try to predict market moves and most traders ultimately lose their shirts. there's a difference between arbitraging markets and predicting. imo predicting the markets with anything more than a slight edge is next to an impossibility. yes, we get scam artists all the time on TV who claim to have foresight. by and large, they are full of BS. the principles that do work are arbitrage but that's primarily not a prediction game.

i think we have a fundamental difference in terms of what is reasonably predictable and what is not. imo life's not a mathematical model where one can predict with certainty that 4 follows 2 plus 2. but no interest in getting on with this.😊 because if someone is smart enuff to predict the kind of things u thing they shld be able to, then they shld also be smart enuff to predict they'll get assasinated. also, let's not go confusing someone's lack of leadership and/ or foresight ability, even if that were the case, with another person's evil intent and actions.

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hey, i understand no one can beat the mkt all the time. still, traders do not throw darts on the dart boards or do inky pinky to pick their portfolios. a lot of effort goes behind every move they make. they perfect their art over time with experience as well. whether it is the prediction game or not, arbitrage is also based on some expectations on how the prices of the same security will move in diff mkts. same with hedging when guys try to predict how diff commodities will move and try to hedge the risk. some study and experience goes in making those calls. i really don't know much about trading but do know that it's not done by throwing darts in the air😊.

same way, we r talking about a leader who was seasoned in politics. she grew up in a political family. hard to believe she couldn't figure out the far reaching impact of her actions.

foresightedness is a mandatory quality for a good leader...especially when they r prone to using people with evil intents for their purposes. they say in politics, left hand doesn't trust the rt hand then how cld they not think about what their "partners in crime" may end up doing down the road?

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

hey, i understand no one can beat the mkt all the time. still, traders do not throw darts on the dart boards or do inky pinky to pick their portfolios. a lot of effort goes behind every move they make. they perfect their art over time with experience as well. whether it is the prediction game or not, arbitrage is also based on some expectations on how the prices of the same security will move in diff mkts. same with hedging when guys try to predict how diff commodities will move and try to hedge the risk. some study and experience goes in making those calls.

lol. sorry but u seem to be back-tracking a bit now imo. am glad if u realize that there's a difference between predicting market movements in general and relying on certain mathematical quantities to determine what's rich/ cheap vis-a-vis something else.

if we still dont get that, think of it along the following lines- the more your models leave things to outright predictions, more one goes wrong even as a professional/ experienced trader.😊

same way, we r talking about a leader who was seasoned in politics. she grew up in a political family. hard to believe she couldn't figure out the far reaching impact of her actions.

can anyone?😉

foresightedness is a mandatory quality for a good leader...especially when they r prone to using people with evil intents for their purposes.

bhindranwala did not start out like that. nothing in his past that should have alerted anyone, at least not more than the past that every politican has. neither did the mujaheedin.

they say in politics, left hand doesn't trust the rt hand then how cld they not think about what their "partners in crime" may end up doing down the road?

partners in crime? lol. no comments😆

Originally posted by: chatbuster

partners in crime? lol. no comments😆

😆😆 wish i was in mood to post all the history behind blue star. may be later. might make more sense then😆

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

😆😆 wish i was in mood to post all the history behind blue star. may be later. might make more sense then😆

lol, do u call 2 plus 2 equals 4 predicting now? i mean if u do, then we can try to adapt to your terminology.😆 now, were u talking about the 2+2 equals 4 kinda predictions or the more difficult ones that social/ political interactions throw up?😛

btw, do u think that IG should have been able to predict her own assasination as a corollary to blue-star? could anyone?

Since this topic is really very close to my heart and I feel very strongly about it but due to IF guidelines I will not say much because I don't wanna disrespect anyone here😊

I would have agreed with Indira Gandhi's actions if Golden Temple was the ONLY religious shrine attacked during the operation blue star. Not many people are aware but there were over 40 other gurdwaras attacked by the indian military/government all over Punjab and I fail to see what those gurdwaras had to do with bhindrawale or golden temple😕 I dont hold respect for Indira Gandhi at ALL and I still dont think she got all the punishment she deserved for making such mockery out of Sikhs She died too easy of death🤢 I hate the way these politicians manipulate the general public Operation Blue star was titled "indian genocide" by the westerns and was condemned all over the world but the indians themselves choose to justify and stand by the most disgusting decision made by the indian government Mostly people think the main reason why Gandhi hated bhindrawale was because he wanted to seperate Punjab from India rite? but if you look at his history and read his speeches there is not a HINT of him asking for the seperation of Punjab

That's all I have to say but let me also add sikh people DO NOT consider HINDUS responsible for this massacre but we do say Gandhi was NOT justified in carrying out this attack on our gurdwaras

I am sorry if I have hurt someone with my above statements but this is what I know and that's my view which I aint changing -_-