let's discuss the biggest epic ever: MAHABHARAT

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246851

Hibernated

Posted: 11 years ago

#61

What drona did cannot be perhaps condoned.

But eklavya can be interpreted in another way. He made drona is guru and he practised dhanurvidya on his own. It is possible he snuck up on dronas lessons without really paying dorrnit by time ans hard work. Whatever toils he die to peefect his skill, was for himseof only, unlike the pandavas ans kauravas, he dis not do guru's bidding as was custom of the day.

Secondly, the simply barking of the dog wws so irritating to him, that instead of shutting it up, shooing it away, he sew its mouthnwith arrows. How do u define that on cruelty scale? So as genie said, he misused his skills, which he acquired a little shady way. Theeegore he was not fit enough to reap full advantage of the skills.

In todays time and world too we fins people, unfairly reaping benefit of skills which are not perfect, or choices given. Like say a political power to an undeserving candidate. And it usually reaps ill for all.

People like eklavya used underhanded tactic ro gain something he perhaps did not deserve, karna lied to parashuram to get his warrior skill, resulting in them not reaping full benefit of theie skill.

I dont know if we should condemn ambition of karna or eklavya or not, I don't think we should.

But this shows, the ways we choose to fulfill out ambitions might just backfire on us.

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Parasuram is considered biahnu avatar but I am not surenif he can be considered a teue boue or aware of his divinity. Because when ram beoke har dhanush, he came to challenge Ram too, and when ram broke his dhanush, he went to offer his naman to vishnu avatr.

Now why would one bihsnu avatar, bow before another? That too face to face.

This makes me speculate perhaps the original parashuram wss a warrior Brahmin social reformer who took ipon arms to restore balance between the growing greed and cruelty of khatriya rulers od his time. Hence this man os considered an avatar. Ans he later formed a school of such warrior brahmins, much like ninja, who carried the title parashuram, ans were knowledgeable Brahmin warriors, well respected for their code of conduct and aloofness to worldly affairs in general,

I mean how can a parashuram, who decimated khatriyas before ram live through age of ram, and then remain able enough to teach bheesma ages later and then karna, who is two generations later.

And if we take him s vishnus immortal ansh avatar parallely existing with ram and krishna, then maybe he took on karna, because hia dedication and hard work and talent impressed him, he knew karna worldr have a part tp play in future drama ans yet the ruthles ambitii of karna, which prompted him to lie to his teacher msust call for some punishment.

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246851

Hibernated

Posted: 11 years ago

#62

Excuse all typos, typing from tablet.

And too tired to edit.

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 11 years ago

#63

Genie - Eklavya becomes a close aide of Jarsandha after the gurudakshina incident. He is killed in the war between Krishna and Jarsandha over Rukmini. Not sure if he is personally killed by Krishna.

I thought he interlocked the arrows around the dogs mouth to keep it shut without harming him. That was the skill that awed everyone. Otherwise I think anyone could fill a dogs mouth with arrows. If he harmed the dog, then the question of dharma arises. Even then, there is selfishness where he placed himself above the dogs comfort. What about the dog eating, drinking etc. later.

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246851

Hibernated

Posted: 11 years ago

#64

Originally posted by: -Aarya-

Crime is crime, either done on a basis of righteousness or for the sake of killing, doesn't change output, and as you also stated that Pandavas did pay a hefty price as well.

Arya I think I have to disagree with you.

Beacuse if u say, every murder will be considered releasing some soul, then revenege for one murder can also not be condemned. Then the whole basis of society or punihsment should also not exist. Because there will be divine retribution anyway, soul is eternal. So when a person is murdered, a woman is raped, poor people are tortured, the person perpetrator should not be punished by us, because its all a soul and nothing is really dead, or if someone kills the perpetrator or does horrible things to the person or their family in return, it is also not crime. Bevause they are all souls.

So basically whole fabric of society will fsll down and we would enter anarchy, law of jungle.

Besides krishna in gita says soul is eternal indestructible. He also says I am everywhere, in rocks, in sky, I am everybody.

So does that mean a murderer should not murder becauzr he is murdering himself?

It is a complicated situation if we interpret these things so literally.

Because then one will not take any responsibility for his acyion. Same gita also savys one has to take responsibility for ones action and do their karma without any desire.

So anyway, when itbis said, soul is indestructible, it means our true essence, the divinity in bus cannot be destroyed. We can die, reborn, do our work, but this is all a veil. When we will understand it, we will stop discriminating.

A person who knows this, stops hurting others, even feeding, or breathing, because everything is himself, and he is everything. But such a realisation is not easy to come by.

You can shout at rooftop that you and me are one and same. But if I say slap ypu, ypu will feel the pain. But someone who truly has realised the truth, should not feel it, because its nothing but maya, the you and me and slapping.

Hence krishna says soul is eteenal, body wastes away and decays and is formed again. But that does not mean ypu should not do your duty. Do it with as less attachment you can, and finally u may realise truth.

Saying. Since all soul is eternal, a murderer is not guilty is seing half of it. Because then one should also consider everything is same and a murderer is basically killing himself or he doesn't exist as a separar entity at all. Until one comes to that realisation, where such mundane activities are futile, one cannot be absolved of one's responsibility.

If u can discriminate between you and me, hunger ans pain, feel them as reality, then you should also discriminate between eight mor wrong, crime and punihsment.

I hope i did not sound like babbling gibberish

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charminggenie

@charminggenie

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#65

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Genie - Eklavya becomes a close aide of Jarsandha after the gurudakshina incident.
No clue tbh, but from what I have read his tribe was always in opposition to Yadav and kuru clan . So he was a natural enemy , true he picked his association with Jarasandha later. I am not sure how connected Krishna was with Hastinapur during the gurudakshina incident. Need to check the timeline. Though his tribe "nishada" was known to indulge in anti-social activities against Kuru , Drona refused him as a student on the principle that he cannot teach a student who might go against his employers.
He is killed in the war between Krishna and Jarsandha over Rukmini. Not sure if he is personally killed by Krishna.
Well there is this whole thing about him stopping the rath that krishna was driving and was killed after a hurled stone hit him. His whole time with Jarashandha was shady.

I thought he interlocked the arrows around the dogs mouth to keep it shut without harming him. That was the skill that awed everyone.
Shutting a dog's voice even if it might not cause physical harm - would it not come under harm, still? Barking is a natural instinct for a Dog, afterall. He might have the skills and competence perhaps he lacked the character to be an archer.
Otherwise I think anyone could fill a dogs mouth with arrows. If he harmed the dog, then the question of dharma arises.
Even then, there is selfishness where he placed himself above the dogs comfort. Exactly , Dog's discomfort above himself when he could have avoided such situation.
What about the dog eating, drinking etc. later.
Not sure by this, but considering he was a pet , i hope he got some aid.

The thing is MB is a study of perceptions. There are so many angles and so many ways to look at one situation. Hence I try to concentrate on the emotion than the character, at times. Also I feel Karma and Dharma were equally balanced out like Newton's third Law. Also by this logic , Drona too paid enough.

Edited by charminggenie - 11 years ago

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Mahadevan Venkitaraman

@maha2us

Voyager

Posted: 11 years ago

#66

Definitely the great epic Mahabharat can bring out many points of views on most of the episodes and the debates would be endless.

As far the Ekalavya episode, this is how I understand. At first, I will definitely say, I don't have very good opinion on Drona who never lived up to the principles in many occasions. As far Ekalavya, he was a tribal person as said in the epic and not a kshatriya. We can definitely accept, he was keen to learn archery nuances and he was successful to a good extent practicing all alone and hard. And thus he became a skillful archer also. But then, certain rules are followed in every kingdom and every country. The law of a country doesn't allow everyone to possess destructive weapons. Suppose I practice and practice with a gun and I have become a sharp shooter and I could aim at flying birds from a distance and shoot them off but I have no license to use the gun, what will be my position? I may be appreciated for my skill but the state has definitely the right to punish me for having skillful weapon. The law of land didn't permit the tribe persons to have destructive weapons and Drona those days was a Government Servant. Even in Gurukulas those days, everyone was not taught archery skills. Drona therefore had every right to do the needful to bring Ekalavya down. If Ekalavya was interested in learning, he could have chosen any other discipline other than weaponry. In some versions, it is mentioned when Ekalavya came to Drona first seeking him to teach archery, Drona told him to concentrate on spiritual practices instead of archery.

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later ;)

@QuietlyLoud

Voyager

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#67

@genie and LN

yeah some of it might have happened...It could be a deeply exaggerated version of a historical event because some things just can't be true..like different type of astras and all ..I mean where we would have reached if we had that kind of machinery??So Vyas must have poured in some serious amount of his imagination🤔

As for Eklavya's story No matter what I can never forgive Drona for what he did ..Caste system must have been really prevalent back then but whatever, that was just not right .Drona knew right away Eklavya was way better and skillful than Arjuna in spite of having received any formal training ..That must have pissed him off and also he knew Eklavya's skills could seriously effect Arjuna's self esteem..I think more than as a punishment ,he demanded that Guru dakshina to shun Eklavya for Arjuna's sake

Edited by QuietlyLoud - 11 years ago

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Sindhu Ramakrishnan

@Sindhuramakrish

Voyager

Posted: 11 years ago

#68

Mahabharata's occurrence is mainly due to the plea made by Lord Vishnu's wife, Bhooma Devi. the one who holds the Earth. It was she who pleaded to the lord to reduce the weight of Earth because of the sins made by the people living on Earth. Hence, Mahabharata was demonstrated. that is what mythology says. when u take mahabharata as a whole, it may sound very interesting. but there is more to it. each and every aspect has a meaning and it describes life. Atheists may say that it is a fiction. A severe worshiper of may say it is divine. but the basic thing which needs to be understood is the message it explains. Mahabharata is not only the story of pandavas and kauravas. it is about the good and bad. The kurukshetra would not have taken place if Pandavas had not lost the dice game, if Kauravas were not evil, and above all, it would not have taken place if Draupadi was not ill treated. It was a shameful act. The main aim for the pandavas was to get back the kingdom and avenge for Panchali's ill treatment. for Kauravas, it was for the sake of getting the Hastinapur kingdom. For sakuni, it was to avenge for his sister Gandhari, who was married to Dhrithrashtra and take revenge on Bhishma. Each one had their own version of Dharma. but it was only lord Krishna who explained what Dharma is. for selfish reasons, many people do what they think is right. not even for a second did Duryodhana think about his mistakes and its consequences. Dhrithrashtra, being a king, he supported his son during the dice game, knowing well that it was against Dharma. he was totally blinded by sakuni and his sons. for Karna, his friendship was more valuable than Dharma. and he failed to understand what friendship is. but till date, karna and duryodhana are spoken as examples for friendship and karna for charity.

Yudhishtir was a Dharmaraj. no doubt, but he failed to protect his wife. he vowed to take care of her. not only him, but all the 5 brothers were supposed to take care of their wife's virtue. he may have made a name for himself being a dharmaraj. but still, he is a failure as a husband.

what is Dharma? is it following the rules laid by our ancestors so that we may walk in the right path or is following the rules blindly so that we keep our name intact though knowing that it may cause harm to the good? for me Dharma is protection. it is an asthram, that is a weapon which is to be followed to keep our world intact. following dharma is good. but there is a limit. if following dharma results in failure of protecting the good and innocent, then it is useless. I still feel that if only Yudhishtir had given up on the last game, Panchali would have been saved from such an evil act.

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charminggenie

@charminggenie

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#69

Originally posted by: QuietlyLoud
@genie and LN

yeah some of it might have happened...It could be a deeply exaggerated version of a historical event because some things just can't be true..like different type of astras and all ..I mean where we would have reached if we had that kind of machinery??So Vyas must have poured in some serious amount of his imagination🤔

Either that or it was the way they wrote text at that time. Prose and poems were full of metaphors.

As for Eklavya's story No matter what I can never forgive Drona for what he did ..Caste system must have been really prevalent back then but whatever, that was just not right .Drona knew right away Eklavya was way better and skillful than Arjuna in spite of having received any formal training ..That must have pissed him off and also he knew Eklavya's skills could seriously effect Arjuna's self esteem..I think more than as a punishment ,he demanded that Guru dakshina to shun Eklavya for Arjuna's sake
No denying that his rpomise to Arjun for making him the most skilled warrior would have made him do that but i cannot

No denying that his promise to Arjun played a part to what he did with Eklavya but it is the same man who taught Dhristadyumna - the one who proclaimed to kill him. So I just feel there were multiple factors related to what he did with Eklavya - the events are too closely related. This is not to say what he did was not cruel but it means that he made a poor choice , willingly ,for more than one reason.

I personally see a different kind of social order, tbh there are too many contradictions running around about the existence of Casteism in that time. Sure there was segregation but it will be oversimplifying if we think it in today's context.

Edited by charminggenie - 11 years ago

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-Aarya-

@-Aarya-

Dazzler

Posted: 11 years ago

#70

@RTH, @charminggenie, @LeadNitrate

I agree to disagree :)

The real question here is crime justified? For example, let's take Krishna into consideration, he always talked about dharma and adharma, but during the war, he used deceit to kill most of the great warriors, did he not practice what he taught? In this case how can he do adharma to establish dharma...

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