Is Karvachauth wrong? - Page 8

Originally posted by: AishuHiBawari

So, feminism is about choices, but, according to you, there are right choices and wrong choices.

Originally posted by: OyeChupKar

She may choose not to observe this fast (if she is a hindu) so that her husband dies ASAP😛 And the more you're devoted to your religion, the more rewards you get. Not just in this world, but in the hereafter too. For me, the rewards I will get in the other world hold more importance than the one's I'll get here.

^^

Also to add, not all Hindus keep karva chauth. It is predominantly North Indian. In the south mostly Maharashtra/Karnataka a similar vata savitri fast is observed. But there are a significant number of Hindu communities that do not have such a festival.

Originally posted by: joie de vivre

And pray tell me how fasting is going to strengthen a relationship? If a relationship is foundering, no amount of fasting or praying can save it. A healthy relationship doesn't need bells and whistles and a disturbing fetishization of fidelity to sustain it.

I agree with you on this word by word. Fasting has nothing to do with a marriage. But then that is not what this day has evolved into.

It just staggers me that the majority here believe that such an intrinsically unequal tradition should be given a free pass just because some women like doing it. The reason why MOST societies remain misogynistic hellholes is because the WOMEN in these places are the biggest proponents of it. Some women willingly do some things which are arrantly sexist, and this is bad because it means we'll never see a world where men and women are considered equal.

Correction:- Majority or rather I would say all of us including you and I are not dissuading the influence of Patriarchal society nor the unfair inequality of women in our society. What we differ is our individual interpretation of what you finely coined as , "intrinsically unequal tradition". I won't speak for others but personally, for me this is a "voluntary tradition" for women and meant to be practiced by their own will.

What you define as a fast for long life for husband, I have turned it around to be understood as " a dress pretty women day",making the male partners of these women a somewhat non primary entity. See my approach is not to shun this tradition, why do that when few can derive a little laugh, but I at the same time would ensure that it becomes all about the women. I am all for pushing the intrinsic boundaries and making it a wholesome package. Women are free to practice it at their will, men are allowed an entry on this day and we might have a more organic path towards equality where such practices loose their outdated, jarred meaning and take shape into a more cohesive experience. At the end of the day we are moving towards the same goal, just in my view, I am letting women, be themselves without patriarchal or feminist pressure. "

As much as I respect your emotions , I feel disappointed that without a personal reference you so callously dismiss, some women who differ with your approach (not your intention) and label them as propagators of misogynistic societies.

And you so conveniently consider that since few agree to this "arrogantly sexist" practice (your term) , they are making bad decisions, my apologies if my argument gave you such an impression but by insisting on "will" or "choice" , I and many others here are saying that , a woman out of her own free will ,with no society compulsions or influence of folk sexist myths, agree to participate in this occasion, just and solely to celebrate herself then that should be encouraged. Rather then shutting the door, try breaking the ceiling .

All I am saying is rather than shunning someone for practicing it , try telling her that this day is all about her , celebrate it for yourself" , that my dear, would work better in removing all the conditioning chains .

Another example : Don't fast , gift yourself. Customize it according to your individual thinking , that will weaken the dated sexist concepts surrounding it but also evolve the spirit of this tradition.

I have a few questions for those who support Karva chauth.

- Is voluntary' participation on its own sufficient to justify a practice or would you say there are other criteria that must be met?

- Is the festival perfect in its existing belief and practice or is there room for reform?

- Does it expect equally from men and women? If yes, please elaborate? If no, can different expectations for different people be fair? If yes, how so? If no, how do we justify unfairness?

Originally posted by: joie de vivre

And pray tell me how fasting is going to strengthen a relationship? If a relationship is foundering, no amount of fasting or praying can save it. A healthy relationship doesn't need bells and whistles and a disturbing fetishization of fidelity to sustain it.

It just staggers me that the majority here believe that such an intrinsically unequal tradition should be given a free pass just because some women like doing it. The reason why MOST societies remain misogynistic hellholes is because the WOMEN in these places are the biggest proponents of it. Some women willingly do some things which are arrantly sexist, and this is bad because it means we'll never see a world where men and women are considered equal.

I could explain but first we need to agree on a couple of things. That

a) subscribing to this notion should not be a prerequisite to understanding the notion and
b) understanding the notion should not be a prerequisite to noninterference in what is essentially a private sentiment between a couple

Also, it would help tremendously, if you could please tone down the "proof by verbosity fallacy". I am sure we are all busy people so if the discussion veers off into ten different directions (religion, patriarchy, anarchy, sexism, misogyny, plastic surgery, customs, traditions, rituals and everything else but Karwa Chauth) we would all fast lose interest.

@Genie -

Since you broadened the horizon. I agree that religious rituals have evolved and changed over the ages. Some positively, some negatively. We cannot deny the influences of patriarchy in how some traditions evolved. Society needs to actively look at customs and traditions and try to evolve positively.

Focusing back on Karva Chauth. I would never deny a woman her right to live her life how she wishes, nor would I look down on her for keeping karva chauth or even revering her husband.

Ideally, I would prefer that the ritual not exist because it appears disparate to me. However, I understand the sentiment that for many women it is a joyous occasion they look forward all year to. It has emotional value, that only the participants can fathom.

My only caveat is lets ensure that it remains a happy choice. Let no woman feel forced or obligated to keep the fast. Let's not disregard a woman's efforts for a happy marriage if she doesn't believe in these traditions. Most importantly may the husband and family, never take a woman's choices for granted and assume it to be as a tool of power or superiority. The gesture needs to always be appreciated and reciprocated with gratitude.

There are still a few places in the world (not just India) where a people are denied their free will and spouses take each other for granted.

Once upon a time dowry was a gift parents of a bride happily gave their daughter to start a new life. Back in the day sons inherited land and business, so giving assets like jewelry upon marriage was a way of giving the daughter her fair share. But that practice degenerated with time. Whenever, there is something that one group participates in, there is a risk of it being abused. We have to be cognizant of the risk.

@K

On its own I have no problem with Karva Chauth at all. If a woman chooses to participate, no one should deny her the choice.

I do get concerned about husbands and in-laws expecting or forcing it or mistreating a wife who chooses not to participate. As long as this does not happen I think it is fine.

"Fairness would be when both the partners participate or none of the partners participate."

Bingo! Ideally, I would like to see a world where we have this sort of fairness. Hopefully, time will take us there. 😊 But I agree, if a woman participates happily and enjoys it, it isn't unfair.

Originally posted by: charminggenie

@Mr K, I don't think she was nudging men to come up with a festival of sorts now, her point seemed more towards the lack of examples from our pasts or culture where men have openly expressed their gratitude for their ladies which does says something about the deep roots of our patriarchal society. The idea must have been to emphasize that although this fast or occasion is voluntary that doesn't mean women enjoyed equality or men were more responsive towards them.

Personally I never try to overtly blame the traditions or the past for our patriarchal mind-set, if we can evolve in terms of our living, eating or the way we dress, then what has prevented us from respecting each other, or treating the females with equal respect?