Where do you think we came from? - Page 17

Originally posted by: BirdieNumNum

i think science ends where the universe began. :)

Clever! How about we use our reasoning powers* then?

*if any

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

Vintu Madira, your contention is that a timeless, shapeless entity that you prefer to refer to as The God (or The Energy) is what is behind the emergence of the Universe. Fine, let's go with that for a minute.

Don't you think that the curious ones would then want to know how that Entity itself emerged? Are you not stifling their curiosity by saying that The Entity always existed? Don't you think that it is extremely anti-climactic that the curious ones, who through eons of research, approach the gates of singularity, only to be turned back by folks like you who maintain that on the "other side" of it, something always existed in a shapeless/formless state and time doesn't apply to it? How disingenuous is that?!

is it possible that you are constructing the exact opposite image of this universe, in a dualistic way with your stance on this topic? We are aware of shape so the one responsible for this universe has to be shapeless. We live in space-time so the one responsible for this has to be outside of space-time.

Thinking outside the box is not the same as assuming there is no box?

I am not saying what could be The Truth. For all we know, may be it is God. For all we know, may be it is Consciousness. But, and this is a big one, will that Truth satisfy the curiosity? I don't think so. At least not for me.

@ Bold 1: Madira I guess makes the heavenly beverage seem slightly tacky ..How about calling that the 'Som Ras' ? <<<< That's apt terminology to make us feel closer to the heavens ..😆

@ Bold 2 : Yeah ..I have been trying to help the Curious ones to get rid of their parochial approach for long ..But unfortunately they are choosing to contort their view to the now known science, The laws of which dwindle when they reach singularity and may not apply before that ...😆 ...Again I tried to resort to their popular belief that they rant all the time ..They say the Energy existed all the time as it can't be created ..So I exhorted to them to think along that line ..There is nothing disingenious about that and i ll tell ya why shortly ..

@ Bold 3: I ain't pulling things outta vaccum like they did cause they failed miserably to reach beyond a stage back in time..and shall always fail I believe even after eons of research...😆 ..You and I both know there is a known rhetorical reference to what I have been saying. The idea of a Multiverse was first made public 5000 years ago with manifestation. This is stupefying to say the least ..How can a person say such things and display such abillity unless he was as close to being the supreme commander as could be..Wasn't the idea of Creation and the warning of annihilation given in the most crystalline way at that time? When no one else had no idea about it ..

I can't be responsible for the slow progress of science ..It might take em eons of research to get to terms with the idea..if they are hell bent on choosing a infinitely long and scraggly path to reach there ...But I fear the human civillization woulda ended much before that point in time is reached ...Humans won't even live to witness the Milky way - M 31 collision..and the time just doesn't end even there..

@ Bold 4: Well the Box can very well be illusive ..So I think Yes ..It doesn't exist at all can very well be a valid suspicion ...

@ Bold 5: But I'm pretty sure that the God created it all and the decision was conscious ..It has been stated in Geeta which is the greatest ever Opus according to me ..Stated with authority and based on the knowledge that might remain beyond the reach of science for indifinite time ...Being an atheist shouldn't mean one should write off all ideas merely cause they know they can't perform a physics experiment to prove it ...We are talking about things that reckon or abide by no mundane or celestial laws known to us ...Right ?
I'm afraid but the curious ones shall always remain curious and unsatisfied if they confine there effort to what they read up outta textbooks and get to see in physics laborateries ..😆

Vintu ... 😛

Originally posted by: Freethinker112

I asked Birdie if he thought it was a being. You gotta be a being to be conscious, right? Again such mysticism doesn't help. Energy is energy, why give a new name God?

Okay, so how do you define God?

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

@ Bold : But Birdie ..that ll violate Hubble's law ..and other findings like the remnant CMB ..If the current stellar expansion is reversed it takes us to the point of Big Bang ..So that leaves us with only one option. That is to root for your 1st option ...The God = the Energy created the Universe ..😊

Originally posted by: K.Universe.

Clever! How about we use our reasoning powers* then?

*if any

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

[ But I'm pretty sure that the God created it all and the decision was conscious ..It has been stated in Geeta which is the greatest ever Opus according to me ..Stated with authority and based on the knowledge that might remain beyond the reach of science for indifinite time

Splendid! Please walk me through this process then. Of what happened, how it happened and why it happened. Would appreciate it if you are as detail oriented as possible and not piggyback on abhorrent science in your elucidation.

So "there" "was/is" this "pure energy / God" which is "conscious" and "then" _________.

I am expecting you to fill in the blank not just with few words but with an exposition.

Reason I quoted a few words is because some of them belong to this universe (you know, space-time and such which obviously your entity is not bounded with) and the word "conscious" which itself is neither a familiar concept to us nor an alien concept.

Thank you!

Originally posted by: BirdieNumNum

yes, if we use our classical reasoning, we'll find the need for there to be a causal agent given that we are so tuned in to cause and effect. And then we enter into infinite regress unless we stop at a point and say that there had to be an Entity which did not need creation and which some of us call God/ Energy/ Consciousness (not energy). But for that we have to make a leap of Faith, not science

Regarding your point: "unless we stop at a point and say..."

You used classical reasoning to make that stop.

You cannot fault classical reasoning and yet use classical reasoning to stop and take a leap of faith. Becomes circular reasoning.

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine

Um ...Sorry I was fighting another pointless battle in another thread ..Well getting back to this one ...and your earlier post ...Energy has to be something ..to exist ..Cause nothing can't ..We know of Photons ..A particle of course ...But do we know all particles ? Photons came much later ...The earliest known obes were only IMAGINARY ..< The gravitons ..And I can only LMAO @ he concept ...But thats what science points to ..Imaginary ..Now who can imagine ? Someone did ..When there was no matter or even particles ...Again we don't know all the states in which energy can exist ...

I define the GOD as a pure energy ..which is conscious ..Aware or not is a different issue ..See even we have a Coscious mind and then a Subconscious mind ..And then there is a concept of 'KUNDALINI' inside ourselves <<<<<< Now this is a spiritual term ..It can be interacted with meditation ..a great amount of practice is needed to achieve that state ..as they say .. Then there have been Trans Body experiences that took place in late 1800s ..

See ..We are on about something thats the MIGHTIST ...As I had said on many occasions ..there is this everlasting energy ..which keeps on purifying itself ...The same energy exists inside us ...And we keep dying and taking births again and again ..until we finally reach a state of Moksha ..= Stop existing in a free unamalgamated state ... << You might find this absurd ..but this has been mentioned in religious books ..We can consider this as an idea here ...Look ..The universe is created ..and after trillions of years its destructed ..When all matter , Particles, Energy again become ONE <<< Doesn't that sound like the same kind of a process ? ..So the GOD as in the energy is at many places and in many forms ...even the stones cause even they were created outta energy ..and everything will become the same energy ( May be supersymmetry ) again ...