Who am I? - Page 17

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

Again disregarding all points presented to demonstrate how Karamphal makes us what we are --- and your question was "Who I Am". How is this discussion veering off from the "main" topic, K? Mind elaborating.

Originally posted by: my_view

Actually we cannot assume that all our thoughts are flowing thru a single state of mind.. therefore all thought patterns must be witnessed and labelled accordingly.

According to Patanjali yoga sutras (self realisation), there are 5 kinds of thoughts or stages of consciousness to be observed and discriminated.

pramana = real or valid cognition, right knowledge, valid proof, seeing clearly viparyayah = unreal cognition, indiscrimination, perverse cognition, wrong knowledge, misconception, incorrect knowing, not seeing clearly vikalpah = imagination, verbal misconception or delusion, fantasy, hallucination nidra = deep sleep

smritayah = memory, remembering

The wall between where we are and the self is called the mind..

It does appear that there is more than one state of mind even though I am ultimately relying on my own mind to distinguish between each of those states. It's a little bit circular there. Under intense questioning, nothing clearly separates any of them. Plus, I am not aware of my own initial state.

For example, my pramana should negate my viparyayah but it doesn't always succeed in doing so. I have no idea why. That means, my pramana itself is unreliable. There is very little separating viparyayah and vikalpah. On top of everything, I am not sure if my pramana decides what to store in my smritayah based on what it deemed real or or if my smritayah decides to go with both my pramana and vikalpah. And I have no idea what happens in deep sleep. Is there at least on single thought in my deep sleep or is deep sleep devoid of all thoughts? Is deep sleep the ultimate perfect vacuum? If so, how does it wake itself up again?

How do we fix the formatting on page numbers 20 and 21 of this thread? Not sure what happened there but the messages appear too spread out.

Wonderful thread..👏

I have little idea who i am.. I know nothing. I'm seeking answers.. I'm craving for the truth

"I was here from the moment of the
Beginning, and here I am still. And
I shall remain here until the end
Of the world, for there is no
Ending to my grief-stricken being.

I roamed the infinite sky, and
Soared in the ideal world, and
Floated through the firmament. But
Here I am, prisoner of measurement.

I heard the teachings of Confucius;
I listened to Brahma's wisdom;
I sat by Buddha under the Tree of Knowledge.
Yet here I am, existing with ignorance
And heresy.

I was on Sinai when Jehovah approached Moses;
I saw the Nazarene's miracles at the Jordan;
I was in Medina when Mohammed visited.
Yet I here I am, prisoner of bewilderment.

Then I witnessed the might of Babylon;
I learned of the glory of Egypt;
I viewed the warring greatness of Rome.
Yet my earlier teachings showed the
Weakness and sorrow of those achievements.

I conversed with the magicians of Ain Dour;
I debated with the priests of Assyria;
I gleaned depth from the prophets of Palestine.
Yet, I am still seeking truth.

I gathered wisdom from quiet India;
I probed the antiquity of Arabia;
I heard all that can be heard.
Yet, my heart is deaf and blind.

I suffered at the hands of despotic rulers;
I suffered slavery under insane invaders;
I suffered hunger imposed by tyranny;
Yet, I still possess some inner power
With which I struggle to great each day.

My mind is filled, but my heart is empty;
My body is old, but my heart is an infant."

(from "Song of man" - Khalil Gibran )

Great excerpt pogo.

I am yearning for the Truth too. I think we are entitled to it. I think it should be our birth right. I am getting tired of shouting from the roof tops myself, that something is amiss. Something is clearly not right. Empty atoms, empty universe, empty minds all around…

Originally posted by: Mister.K.

It does appear that there is more than one state of mind even though I am ultimately relying on my own mind to distinguish between each of those states. It's a little bit circular there. Under intense questioning, nothing clearly separates any of them. Plus, I am not aware of my own initial state.

For example, my pramana should negate my viparyayah but it doesn't always succeed in doing so. I have no idea why. That means, my pramana itself is unreliable. There is very little separating viparyayah and vikalpah. On top of everything, I am not sure if my pramana decides what to store in my smritayah based on what it deemed real or or if my smritayah decides to go with both my pramana and vikalpah. And I have no idea what happens in deep sleep. Is there at least on single thought in my deep sleep or is deep sleep devoid of all thoughts? Is deep sleep the ultimate perfect vacuum? If so, how does it wake itself up again?

Originally posted by: my_view

There is a distinction between Pramana and Viparyayah and Vikaplpah... to put it simply, Pramana is the awarenss of the sun in the morning while Viparyayah is seeing a piece of rope hanging and thinking it is a snake...most doubts are generated in viparyayah state.

Vikalpah on the other hand is completly based on delusion - concepts which do not refer to any corresponding reality..

Nidra is of course thoughtless deep sleep or absent cognition.

Smriti can have all of the above hence most likely to be tainted..

Out of 5 Vritis or state of minds pramana is the one to cultivate obviously. there is a lot out there to explore on these 5 vritis if one wishes to do so..

aham brahmasami - our minds and bodies have innate ability to function and grow itself..we can nourish and take care of or harm our bodies with our own body parts..isn't that circular also?

In the absence of senses (true for some unfortunate individuals) Pramana appears to be on its own. How does it then distinguish what is "real" and what is "delusional"?

In the absence of books and /or other sources including human beings who might try to pass on flawed knowledge from one generation to other, how does one's own Pramana dispel doubts raised by Vikalpah? As an example, if I have been told all my life that a rope is a snake and a snake is a rope, then how would my pramana know which is which?

Reason I am asking is, if I have questions on "I" who do "I" turn to?

Originally posted by: Mister.K.

As an example, if I have been told all my life that a rope is a snake and a snake is a rope, then how would my pramana know which is which?

K, what's in a name.......!

In hindi I call a snake saanp - doesn't change a thing. Your pramana knows what it is no matter what name you call it by.

I took note of your post on previous page. Looks like Occam's razor is wasted on you.

It appears to me that you want to solve for the x to get at that 4 after all. I'll have to research for me to say what I have been saying all along in a complex manner.

In the mean time, a limerick for you

'Though it seems that I know that I know,

What I would like to see, is the I that knows me,

When I know, that I know, that I know.'

~Alan Watts.

I happen to know me. Your problem seems to be YOU not knowing you. So many thoughts to put across here but you don't appreciate simplicity😆

Originally posted by: Gauri_3

K, what's in a name.......!

In hindi I call a snake saanp - doesn't change a thing. Your pramana knows what it is no matter what name you call it by.

I took note of your post on previous page. Looks like Occam's razor is wasted on you.

It appears to me that you want to solve for the x to get at that 4 after all. I'll have to research for me to say what I have been saying all along in a complex manner.

In the mean time, a limerick for you

'Though it seems that I know that I know,

What I would like to see, is the I that knows me,

When I know, that I know, that I know.'

~Alan Watts.

I happen to know me. Your problem seems to be YOU not knowing you. So many thoughts to put across here but you don't appreciate simplicity😆

I wasn't referring to the literal translations of snake and rope. BTW, that's the same example a lot of "Advaitins" use to distinguish MaYa (illusion) and "that". Another favorite example of theirs is the reflection of the moon in the water. I was referring to a situation wherein, you don't know what the truth from your childhood is and you are relying on your pramana since then only to one day pause and think "damn! was I right about that in the first place"? It's like you realized all of a sudden what you been relying upon to guide you is not exactly reliable. Back to the drawing board situation, if you will.