How Baawre lost me

KhatamKahani thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#1
After the 14th July episode, I am sad to say I have not watched any of the succeeding Baawre episodes. I have however, read the detailed written updates and agree that this is a fine show. I hate that I cannot enjoy this show anymore, and wish maybe after writing this post I can get back to enjoying the show.

I wanted to make this post after Monday, it would've been better and easier. I was emotionally worked up, but I didn't get the chance to do so. I wanted to re-watch Monday's episode before I wrote this, but I can't even bring myself to do that now. I am just weary and mostly feel like not even bothering to write (this I know would've been much better written had I written it immediately compared to now) but as i said I am doing so in hopes that perhaps once I've written down my thoughts, I may find my zeal back for Baawre.

The reason for my lack of interest in Baawre? Raghvendra. Or rather, the narrative's and Yamini's making light of Raghvendra's actions which took place in the 11th July episode. We saw Raghvendra taking out his anger and frustration on a poor waiter in front of Yamini. And then the next episode, Yamini is unaffected, the narrative makes light of it, and Nikumbh justifies Raghvendra's reaction. And both the narrative and Yamini attempt to soften and defend Raghvendra by pointing to his softer side, and letting everyone know that he is just loving, overbearing father who while goes too far, in the end has his heart in the right place.

What happened in the 11th July episode?

We see Raghvendra beat the crap out of a poor waiter whose only fault was brushing past Yamini. Yamini herself felt no slight, and tried feebly to protest her father. But Raghvendra, who was already angry and upset, who couldn't do anything to Nikumbh, takes his frustration and anger out on the poor waiter (who also happened to walk past him earlier). This episode alone brought forth a few issues.
  • 1) Yamini. In some ways I can understand how due to her characterization she is helpless. And often times women and girls are shown standing by helpless in such situations. But still, it is hard to digest. How do you not react when you see your father beat the crap out of a poor waiter for a supposed slight against you which you did not even register. All of Nikumbh's tasks and lessons were in vain, because she couldn't open her mouth. Scream at her father to stop.
But Yamini, just as she kept quiet the night of the riots before all those tasks, said nothing and stood by watching it happen. The Narrator criticized and chastised Yamini for keeping quiet that night of the riots. I never really blamed her then. But here, I definitely blame her as an innocent man was physically and violently assaulted (and one which the narrative brushes over in the next episode itself).
  • 2) The feudalistic reality of what happened between Raghvendra and the waiter. Here, I acknowledge this is a reality, but again it's not something which the narrative, Yamini, or other characters whom we are supposed to like and emphasize with, should ignore.
Raghvendra is automatically assumed to be correct and right, and the poor waiter to be in the wrong and guilty of Raghvendra's accusations. Shaheen's father comes over, stops Raghvendra and has the waiter taken away. Is the waiter going to get any justice? No, he will most likely be kicked out without any pay for his services.

How this episode ended did not sit well with me or others I know. But we figured Monday's episode, 14th July episode, would address this and that the character of Raghvendra was has crossed a line which he can no longer be defended as simply a father whom the daughter should be respectful towards. See for some of us, that action of Raghvendra's ensures he deserves no respect, and we thought perhaps Yamini would now start to question her father and not look up to him in the same manner as before.

But that is not what happened in the next episode.

What happened in the 14th July Episode?

  • 1) Yamini has no thought or regards to what happened with the waiter. She tells her mother nothing big happened, and doesn't seem to be the least bit affected with Raghvendra's actions. Rather, she's more upset on why she was dragged out by Raghvendra angrily and why Raghvendra is in a bad mood. Even if she believes Raghvendra beat up the guy due to his bad mood and an overreaction, she should still be upset. But she is not. What this says about her character I will get to later.
  • 2) Nikumbh apparently does come to know of the Raghvendra-waiter incident. (Something which bothered me was that such a small gathering kept on dancing as the assault was going on, and many weren't aware. But okay, I can buy that. And I can also buy that word spread and so everyone came to know what happened after the fact.)
So Nikumbh knows what happened and says he would've done worse than Raghvendra. Here, this is both believable and unbelievable.
  • Believable in that the very feudalistic nature I mentioned earlier would come to play here. Everyone believes Raghvendra's accusation and that's the story which has been passed around. And we have seen before that Nikumbh does have a temper and would resort to physical violence in some cases.
  • Unbelievable because Nikumbh knows Raghvendra's nature and he should be one of the first to question whether Raghvendra overreacted.
  • Believable maybe because he has some faith in Yamini and would think she would protest if the accusation were false. And also, it's not his place to deem false an accusation of inappropriate behavior, when he wasn't there to know what happened.
  • Unbelievable because he knows Raghvendra's nature, as well as Yamini's meekness with Raghvendra.
  • 3) The narrative, Yamini and Dadu all come together to talk about Raghvendra's better side, his softer side, etc etc. It's as if to say and remind the audience that Raghvendra is not all that bad. He is not a total, complete, irredeemable villain. He is a father who will come around eventually, Yamini, Nikumbh and others will slowly make him understand.

And the problem is exactly all three points I mentioned above, and even more so, all three combined to make light and brush over gravity of what happened to the waiter. It makes me think less for the lead characters and makes me lose empathy and respect for them. Showing reality is one thing, but through the lack of apt reaction, I am told the characters are not much better than society, that their thinking is just as feudalistic where they don't care that a man of the lower class was unjustly assaulted and humiliated, and that the words of a man of standing are to be taken as truth.

This applies to both Nikumbh and Yamini. But even more so Yamini. Nikumbh, I can at least say that perhaps he believes it to be the truth since Yamini has not said anything against it. But even then, it's very flimsy and it is very problematic that the narrative had Nikumbh understand Raghvendra, that too combined with Yamini understanding and the attempts to bring forth Raghvendra's more 'human and softer' side.'

Yamini is someone I have lost some respect for. Because she was there. She knows the waiter did nothing of the sort. And yet, she is willing to overlook it and believe her father as right. She saw her father beat up a man, and is not at all affected. She is touched that Nikumbh would be understanding of her father's actions.

Yamini and the narrative are still trying to convince others and the viewers that Raghvendra is not a bad guy. He's just a father who really loves his daughter, blah blah blah blah. This would've been acceptable if they had just kept Raghvendra's psychosis limited to his daughter and Nikumbh. But after his violent assault on Friday on someone unrelated to either one of them, it is not acceptable for me that Raghvendra will not truly ever suffer for his actions--which is that Yamimi should stand up to him and give him no choice other than to accept her decisions and choices, rather than trying to make him come around.

But alas, we all know that they would not dare have a daughter show independence from her father. No, she cannot. Instead we will see a psychotic Raghvendra--someone who really is now just another type of abusive, controlling male lead who the heroine will never take the correct stand against--with examples of his softer side. Eventually Yamini and the others will melt Raghvendra and make him understand, but it will not be with Yamini losing respect for her father or standing up against him. No, like other shows which show the ideal bahu and saas, she will be the ideal daughter, putting up with emotional abuse and restrictions, until they come around and change. And voila, all is well and good.

And I know my last few paragraphs are a rambling mess. I told you I would have written it better had it been on Monday or Tuesday. Now, I am just writing to get this whole damn post over with.

More in the post below.
Edited by KhatamKahani - 11 years ago

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KhatamKahani thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#2
From the start, I had never expected this show to do what usually would be the reality. That a girl in such a situation, a star with a controlling father and family, usually ends up walking out and making the choice she wants. I was understanding that they had to be careful when it came to showing a daughter and how she deals with such a father, and how she goes against her father.

Until 11th May episode, Raghvendra's control freak actions affected mostly just Yamini and the family. If the family wanted to continue on willingly shackled to their belief that they need to heed Raghvendra, that's their choice. Let them do so.

But then, the story took a turn for the worse, when it spilled over to someone who had nothing to do with any of this. He was affected and assaulted for no fault of his own. And the characters seemed not to care. Worse, the narrative seems not to care--unless they are trying to tell us the waiter was indeed at fault, which was NOT how it was shown in the Friday episode, and if that's the stance taken in the narrative, then it is disgusting.

Maybe most of the target audience doesn't care. After all, why should they? Since if the show and the characters are anything to go by, the feudalistic thoughts is reality because society as a whole doesn't care and probably behave in the same feudalistic manner themselves.

Or is it that within a span of an episode, the writers realized they went too far, and tried to scale it back? Or they were forced to scale it back by higher powers, because acknowledging the gravity of Raghvendra's actions meant that Yamini would have to be shown as someone who now lost some respect for her father and did not think of him as highly as she once did. But no, they couldn't have that. They needed to try to have it both ways by using Raghvendra as a villain while employing the same limitations in Hindi serialdom when it comes to asshole, jackass male leads and the vamp mother-in-laws.

Nikumbh is not a jackass male lead. But Yamini is stuck in a similar situation as we see many Hindi heroines--taking crap because either it is her husband, or because it is her family/sasural. The female is never truly allowed to take a real stand. But instead is restricted due to the ties that bind her to those who are causing her problems, disrespecting her, controlling her, humiliating her, etc etc.

Raghvendra in essence does disrespect Yamini in the very way he controls Yamini. But that will never be acknowledged, and Yamini will be forced to always respect him even though he deserves no respect, simply because she is a daughter--a female.

And if the writers' plan is to eventually acknowledge all that is problematic with Raghvendra, and to have Yamini stand up to him, then they made a grave mistake in their narrative choice last week. If this was too early in the story for Yamini to start standing up to her father, then they shouldn't have shown that waiter incident. And same goes if their plan is to never have Yamini stand up against her father, they should've never had the waiter incident. After that Raghvendra deserves no respect and Yamini SHOULD lose respect for him, and not still be defending him. And even if Yamini for some reason is still blinded, the narrative and other characters should not have brushed it over and made light of it. That is the crux of the problem, Yamini, other characters and the narrative ALL brushed past what happened with the waiter.

I wish I could've structured and written this post better. But at this point I really don't care. I just wanted to finish writing this damn post. I'm just glad to have gotten this over with.

Edited by KhatamKahani - 11 years ago
AreYaar thumbnail
Posted: 11 years ago
#3
My god such a huge essay on this? 😕...Considering there are FAR stupider shows actually on air with not even an iota of coherence or logic in them?

The WAITER is not the SUM of this story...the story is LEADING up to something...no body is JUSTIFYING Raghavendra in the story either...and Yamini is yet to learn a lot about her father...one has to understand the ATMOSPHERE in which this show is constructed rather than making every small issue a CRUSADE.
KhatamKahani thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#4
^^ Have I ever come and disrespected your posts here? Did you read my post? If not, I don't care. If you did, I also don't care.
If you wanted to make your points about it still being a good show, without the lack of stupidity, no problem.

But yeah I wrote an effing essay. You too write that combined length. And some issues I feel it important to write an effing essay.
AreYaar thumbnail
Posted: 11 years ago
#5

Originally posted by: KhatamKahani

^^ Have I ever come and disrespected your posts here? Did you read my post? If not, I don't care. If you did, I also don't care.

If you wanted to make your points about it still being a good show, without the lack of stupidity, no problem.

But yeah I wrote an effing essay. You too write that combined length. And some issues I feel it important to write an effing essay.



Calm down...and kindly control your language...I haven't cursed at you in my reply...so the least you can do is show the same courtesy. I responded to the points you made...I talked about the waiter issue, did I not? Your choice if you choose to view the show so myopically and force your crusader agenda on whatever you want to watch.

I expected better from someone who was a fan of a show like Gulaal at one point...but my bad...you are welcome to rant to whatever length you please... I won't "disrespect" your crusades again.
KhatamKahani thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#6
Look at what you are writing, and your own words. I used my language appropriately and used it to describe my own essay. Unlike you, who DID NOT simply respond to the post.

KhatamKahani thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#7
By the way, quite ironic for someone who has said they FF through Raghvendra scenes to tell me, someone who's watched and enjoyed the show as a whole from the very beginning, to appreciate the atmosphere in which the show is constructed.
AreYaar thumbnail
Posted: 11 years ago
#8

Originally posted by: KhatamKahani

By the way, quite ironic for someone who has said they FF through Raghvendra scenes to tell me, someone who's watched and enjoyed the show as a whole from the very beginning, to appreciate the atmosphere in which the show is constructed.



This is getting ridiculously childish and petty now...I shall take responsibility for my side of things and apologize for coming across too strong in my previous two posts...not having the best of days...so apologies if you felt I disrespected your original post in any way.

My forwarding Raghavendra scenes has nothing to do with my opinion on the topic you've made...by atmosphere, I was talking about the setting of the show...the small town culture it belongs to...that has to be kept in mind before expecting absolute/final reactions from characters that are still in a developmental stage.

Your entire post is about how Baawre is DONE for you...and I found that to be a pretty extreme reaction for a show that has a lot going for it as compared to many of the nonsensical shows on TV...a show that's narrative style alone is more than enough reason to admire it...


Your issue seems to be with the waiter scene...and I myself objected to that scene the day it aired too...but I can't help but be surprised at how far that is being taken now into writing off the whole show over it.

I'm no fan of Raghavendra and I forward his scenes due to his extremely uncouth behavior...but characters and people like him very much exist...I may not agree with all aspects of how he's written but there is nothing in Yamini's reaction that is such a let down that I lose respect for the characters over it...

Please don't presume that you are the only person to have watched the show as a whole from the beginning and enjoyed it...this is not some competition over who loves or enjoys a show more...

As I see it, the situation is still building up vis a vis Yamini reaching a point where she cuts off from her father...it would take a lot more for her to reach such a point...more likely when it comes to Nikumb...

You are welcome to quit the show ofcourse...everyone is welcome to watch what they want to...all I find odd is that the same things that drew people to this show still very much exist, yet what the show was once praised for is no longer enough to hold people on to it and everyone moves on to the conventional exciting stuff in soapland.

No wonder the forum is so dead these days...many people probably share your opinion and have left watching the show accordingly.


I can only hope that you do not take offence to this post as well...I felt the need to clarify some things. Have a nice day.
KhatamKahani thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#9
Well at least now you acknowledge that you shouldn't have replied the way you did. You are the one who started with little digs, not me. And you and I both know what. And you got personal first, and I still ignored some of it.

As for my so called presumption. Don't put words in my mouth. I have never done so and am not making it any competition. If I were making it a competition I would not have made this the long post criticizing the show and talk about how I the show has lost me.

My response was because if the very way you deemed to respond to me as if I was was somehow incapable of appreciating the show in the manner you see it.

You think I don't know how the characters behave and what is and isn't realistic in that setting and culture? It's exactly the reason why I have never before complained about Raghvendra's screen space or his importance in the story. And yet, here I am being told I'm not appreciative of the show's atmosphere, even though I have been and I have mentioned the very fact within my posts. Did I not say I never had a problem till 11th and 14th July? I have have never complained about the focus on Raghvendra or his screenspace. I accepted his uncouth behavior as part of the story, as part of his characterization, as well as Yamini's characterization. And yet you ignore this apsect and say I was never appreciative of the atmosphere. If weren't appreciative of the atmosphere, I would have complained about Raghvendra long before.

And again, I only bring up this comparison with your take on Raghvendra because of your first response to me, which if you had written it without the digs I wouldn't have countered in such a manner.

My post is in response to what happened with the waiter and the LACK of proper acknowledgement within the narrative.

You respond to my title and my criticisms but you conveniently ignore my first two paragraph, where I say I still am reading the updates and how it's still a good show. You ignored the part where I wrote that I am writing the post and criticism in hopes that I can get back to watching the show again. And by the way, I am not the only one. I made the effort to write this because I knew people who had already or were on the verge of dropping the show. And by that I mean no updates, nothing. I could've have written NOTHING and they would've not have bothered to come back. Where as if I had written something and voiced the problems that some people had with what happened, then maybe not only myself but others too could bring themselves back to the show.

In your first response you say no one is defending Raghvendra for what he did. But that is not true the way it was handled in a way does somewhat defend him, and in your reply above you know agree with the fact that indeed what was shown WAS problematic. You yourself asked what the writers were thinking having Nikumbh say those lines understanding/defending/brushing off Raghvendra's actions. The difference is that I was not able to move past it, while you could.

I have already written on WHY I think what happened is problematic. It's because all three factors COMBINED to make light of what happened. I wrote I lost some respect for Yamini because I did. I don't see how one can just be okay after seeing what happened. Unless you want to make the comparison that Raghvendra-Yamini is akin to an emotionally abusive relationship, which I would agree to. But the chances of the show ever acknowledging that are slim.

My point is that they made a mistake with Friday's and Monday's episode. It is too early for Yamini to stand up. I AGREE. But they SHOULDN'T have put that waiter scene in there, and then followed it up the way they did in the next episode. Because it makes her lack of reaction DISTASTEFUL! And it's not just her lack of reaction, but how it was treated overall by the show and other characters. I didn't say the situation is not realistic. It is. But how it's treated within the narrative is also important.

Also, you want to put words in my mouth, saying I view it as a competition when all I did was respond to your accusatory response to me. And now again you make accusatory hints. Though here, I understand you are coming from a disappointed place. So I am not taking this to heart, and even understand you.

Let me just say, I gravitate towards whatever I feel is not regressive, as well as enjoyable for me. I would have never "left" Baawre if it were not for Monday's episode and would've pimped out the show as I had been doing till then, telling people on IF I know to watch. But I could no longer do that, until I somehow got my zeal back for the show.

And I did have zeal for this show. I loved it, and would watch it every day. Each episode I watched at least twice, making sure to watched subbed episodes when these days I don't bother to do so. This was/is currently the only show I rewatched with subs, so I wouldn't miss the the nuances, dialogues, etc etc.

Anyway, if you think I pick unnecessarily on little things, so be it. It is not any CRUSADE, as you deemed it. I pick on problematic aspects of the shows I watch in hopes that it may change for the positive. If I weren't watching or didn't care about it, I wouldn't have made the topic. When I drop a show, I don't continue making topics on whatever regressive thing they are showing at the moment. I don't bother! I make topics when I still have an interest in the show. When I lose interest, it's truly the end.

ETA: My discontent with the show wouldn't translate to general audience. It's simply that my, and a few others' discontent. General audience probably don't care and for all I know would have enjoyed last week immensely. They are, after all, good episodes and good content if we just negate the one Raghvendra factor.
Edited by KhatamKahani - 11 years ago
AreYaar thumbnail
Posted: 11 years ago
#10
@KhatamKahani:

1) I'm not putting any words into your mouth...Tone is very open to interpretation on the internet and you seem to be getting greatly offended by mine although that isn't my intention...similarly, I too don't appreciate the tone you take with me in some of your responses but I'm not going to dwell on that since that side-tracks the discussion.


2) I never said you don't know how to look at these characters or this setting...please stop being so defensive...it's a sincere request...if I frame a one or two line answer in response to your point by point elaborated essay, it doesn't mean I have not read your whole set or arguments...so again, please don't make that presumption...if my response is to the point, that only means that it is an overarching summary of response to what I felt were very similarly made arguments so I did not personally see the need to word out elaborate responses...not sure if that would have made you feel that I've read your whole post but again I'd like to reiterate that I did...


3) I understand that there is a breaking point for a connect with every character...happens over the course of most shows...for you, it appears that point has been with this waiter issue and the lack of apt reaction as you said...as I already said, I too took offense to that being shown...and I wondered what the writers were trying to go with...

Now this is the way I saw it with the epis that followed...the writers were trying to show that Raghu was already worked up about Nikumb-Yamini's closeness at the engagement and the waiter happened to show up there...as I am trying to follow it, it seems that in small towns, such kind of bumping is not considered accidental, which is why even Nikumb (to my surprise later on) agreed with Raghu's reaction...cuz he too felt that the waiter was trying to come on to Yamini deliberately...true or false, I felt it was an over-reaction and didn't really like the way it was shown but personally for me, I could let it pass cuz it didn't come to define the show for me...I didn't yet lose my connect.

Again, this is just my viewpoint, I'm not trying to put words into yours or anyone else's mouth.

I only wondered if there might be some sort of disconnect since you need to watch with subtitles to understand the show fully. Please don't take this in an offensive manner but I wonder if the whole context comes through if the language is difficult to follow?

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