Do you guys agree with Mumtaz's take on Boney/Sridevi? - Page 16

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

You've called me high-handed, entitled, and something else which I forget now. You also said in one of your prior posts I'd said something about other posters on this thread who shared their personal experiences, which I didn't.

Yet you claim you didn't indulge in personal attacks.

 

Right.

As for the topic, you're yet again claiming everyone knows this and in the next sentence contradicting it by saying I'm putting so much stock in such studies - which is essentially saying the conclusions ain't valid. In that case, bring actual data to prove the point instead of attacking the messenger.

Moreover, I cited the studies only to show the claims of all of these being society's arbitrary rules  are wrong. There is actually evidence that parents staying together does matter to children. 

And yeah... when people ignore the needs of their dependent kids for their own sake, it isn't about *breaking rules.* Let's not twist what I said into something else to justify those personal attacks. It's about showing the most basic level of decency expected as a parent. 

Also, no, adding the caveat about abuse is no cop-out. Because just as it's elementary that kids' needs do come first, its pretty elementary that there is a difference between a toxic relationship and a mundane one. 

I think I've taken enough personal attacks for things I didn't say or do because apparently it's a no-no to call selfishness for what it is. So it has to be twisted into something else altogether. Not in the mood for more. So ciao and God bless. 

I can sit here all day to collect a list of "studies" to stick them here, studies that reveal why it's actually toxic for parents to stick together just for kids, but that would still be meaningless. Wanna know why? As a post mortem analysis, or just for the purpose of accumulating data and making observations, these studies might reveal why some Guinea pigs turn out poor or why they develop certain issues but beyond the theoretical aspect, I simply don't think they hold much weight in solving real life problems. 

Something that's just not hitting home here is that science has very little impact on human wants/needs. Studies can reveal patterns but this is not a research paper, so using them as a reference point to add more weight to your moral indignations than they actually deserve didn't sit well with me. You have every right to your opinions but you are pushing it when you try to pass them off as "facts" supported by scientific studies. 

You might not have read through the initial pages but I came across personal stories of some members whose parents split for one reason or another before the discussion took this turn. They expressed that it was the best thing their parents did. In light of that, when you walk in here and start making the generalizations up there ^^^ citing studies and then claiming that you're "just stating facts" when you looked down on and called those parents selfish, irresponsible, etc. you should be able to guess how that looks. 

Sorry for another batch of "personal attacks" but I only meant them in the context of this thread, not you, the person. I'm out of here too.

Originally posted by: TrollikaDevi

 However I'm still going to insist that at some point the married person in question has to take responsibility for the effect their decision has on the life of their first partner  in a situation where all that went wrong in the marriage was the former falling out of love ( Which is being discussed here ) .  You're aware of the limitations your society poses on your wife so when you decide to leave her because you have a new lover now and nothing else you have to accept you're putting her in a difficult situation. That it's not what she had signed up for. 

I don't think it is fair to expect people to live in unhappy or unfulfilling situations, just because society is unaccommodating. I firmly believe that if someone is unable to fulfill the expectations on them as a spouse, the kindest thing to do is walk away. 

Originally posted by: TrollikaDevi

 When we assume one partner falling out of love is a sign of a failed marriage we're also implying the other partner somehow didn't live up to their end of the bargain.  Which   isn't always  true  Where it isn't , it's not a failed marriage, it's a case of the former not being able to cope with the reality of marriage and if anything he is the one who has failed and isn't exactly entitled to this pursuit of love, at least not before he gives his marriage a couple of shots more.

This is precisely why I'm not too fond of the term "failed marriage," but we don't have too many good alternatives. Sometimes marriages don't work out and it can be no one's fault. Just because someone is unhappy in a marriage does not mean that their spouse has actively done something to make them unhappy. 

As I said in my previous post, once people marry and have kids - I do think they have to make an effort to salvage a marriage. But it's not always salvageable. And I think every person deserves a chance to pursue what they believe will fulfill them. It is better than accepting a situation where not many

Originally posted by: TrollikaDevi

  It's narcissistic to simply  put your happiness above the needs of others involved in the situation , especially the kids.  I agree with HearMeRoar on this.  Assuming it's not a toxic marriage , robbing your kids of the stability of a home just because you're ' happier ' with somebody else  is pretty selfish .  

Personally, I find the stay together for the kid's plea the most bullshit excuse ever. 

If you are unhappy or sacrifice anything dear to you to salvage the marriage, it will lead to resentment, and resentment always makes relationships toxic and unhealthy. It doesn't have to be violent or abusive to be toxic. 

Kids don't need two married parents. Kids need mature reliable adults who are willing to believe in them and invest in them. If you can make a marriage work and display what a healthy marriage looks like, then great. But divorced parents who can co-parent amicably are far more desirable than married parents who damage their kids and pass on their own unhealthy relationship traits. 

Originally posted by: TrollikaDevi

 I don't say anything of this in a self righteous way.  I'm not good at adulting.  I have made bad decisions .  I've done things I'm not proud of and I have in fact come close to cheating. I believe I'm capable of being in that situation again. So I wouldn't preach in that tone at all, what I'm getting at is how problematic it is to gloss over cheating and give it social sanction when love is involved. 

This is a bit where I am confused. You discourage cheating (and I agree that cheating is wrong) but you don't think people should end a marriage either. 

Love, attraction, infatuation, happen - they aren't always planned. But if you feel that what you're feeling is serious - then the best thing to do is go talk to your spouse and say you need to end things because there is another relationship you wish to pursue. And if you do cheat, come clean ASAP and figure out whats best - working to salvage the marriage or walking separate ways. 

Originally posted by: TrollikaDevi

 The Hema Dharam issue is complicated given his young age at that time. But what Boney Kapoor and Sridevi did was appalling.  You don't screw your friend's husband or your wife's friend .  Even if you end up doing it once, you make sure you don't do it again- That's what I was talking about. 

And yes, I do think cheating is wrong and people who carry on a long-term affair are digging a big hole for themselves. But I also think people make terrible choices as well because of societal pressures around marriage. 

----------

In general, I think society (especially in South Asia) has developed very unhealthy notions around marriage and relationships. Hooking up or sex before marriage is wrong, but for girls, not for men. You must marry fast and have kids or else you're a failure. Divorce is terrible. If a marriage fails, someone did something wrong, and it's usually the woman. You must always work hard to salvage a marriage, especially if you have kids. 

Marriage is not for everybody. Monogamy is not for everybody. As more and more people postpone marriage or don't get married - divorce rates have dropped significantly. People who struggle with monogamy can be honest and find partners who are comfortable with non-monogamous relationships.

My intent is not to defend Dharamendra or Boney Kapoor. I could give two hoots about them. My whole intent is to push back against what I feel are unfair relationship expectations. In a more ideal world, Parkash Kaur and Mona Shourie would have happily dropped their husbands. They wouldn't have felt bad or felt like failures - but moved on - because they don't need their husbands. I cannot expect Dharmendra or Boney to stay with their first wives, because I just cannot see how it would be fair to anyone. You should be with someone because you want to - never because you have to. It doesn't work that way. It's very hard for me to work within the constraints the world is today - because I am too invested in how I want the world to be.

If people are interested in exploring why "stay together for the kids" is a bad idea. Most psychologists and therapists will advise parents to divorce if the only thing keeping them together for the sake of their kids. Most articles and people who advise people to stay together for the kids are usually religious organizations or non-science-backed groups who subscribe to moral codes rather than behavioral psychology. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shift-mind/201508/the-sake-the-children

https://www.independent.ie/life/family/family-features/why-staying-together-for-the-sake-of-your-kids-could-actually-be-doing-them-a-lot-more-harm-35628809.html

https://metro.co.uk/2017/08/12/why-staying-together-for-the-sake-of-the-kids-is-the-worst-thing-that-parents-can-do-6794603/

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-19/should-parents-stay-in-a-relationship-for-the-kids/8412350

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

If people are interested in exploring why "stay together for the kids" is a bad idea. Most psychologists and therapists will advise parents to divorce if the only thing keeping them together for the sake of their kids. Most articles and people who advise people to stay together for the kids are usually religious organizations or non-science-backed groups who subscribe to moral codes rather than behavioral psychology. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shift-mind/201508/the-sake-the-children

https://www.independent.ie/life/family/family-features/why-staying-together-for-the-sake-of-your-kids-could-actually-be-doing-them-a-lot-more-harm-35628809.html

https://metro.co.uk/2017/08/12/why-staying-together-for-the-sake-of-the-kids-is-the-worst-thing-that-parents-can-do-6794603/

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-19/should-parents-stay-in-a-relationship-for-the-kids/8412350

From NIH. Not exactly a religious organization.  In fact, I'd say NIH is one of THE premier scientific orgs in the world.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3091824/

Over the past decade, evidence on the benefits of marriage for the well-being of children has continued to mount. Children residing in two-biological-parent married families tend to enjoy better outcomes than do their counterparts raised in other family forms. The differential is modest but consistent and persists across several domains of well-being. Children living with two biological married parents experience better educational, social, cognitive, and behavioral outcomes than do other children, on average 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2006.00355.x

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X08322776

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2004.00025.x

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2001.00779.x

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003.00876.x

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2002.00489.x

It's easy to dismiss some societal outlooks as patriarchal or outdated, but some of it happens to be true. Not everything religious people have to say is untrue, either. Father Mendel proposed the principles of inheritance. 

Ignoring actual research to advocate social experiments as the news articles in the quoted post suggest will end up hurting children. Would be easy for those psychologists and journalists to do since their children are not likely the ones getting affected. But when it comes to their own families...

I dont agree with her. 

How many guys who fall in love with another woman, cheats on another woman, have affair with another woman do it openly, hold the other woman's hand in public openly, take her out on date openly ? They are always doing it hidden from public and family and relatives, why? Is it something wrong or ashamed that it needs to be hidden ? Dont say they care about what society will say and think if they do it openly, because clearly what matter for these type of mans are their own feeling but never others. They dont give two f if other people are gonna get hurt or not with their action. 

And the reason Boney did not leave could be because she was already pregnant, not because he had guts, unless she was some unknown woman like Amir Khan had affair with, then you can hide her somewhere.

And if Dharmendra reason was early age marriage, then the only person to blame is his own parents and himself, you dont not punished another innocent for the mistake your parents done, you go and punish your parents. 

The best thing to do was to find another husband for his first wife or to ask his first wife to have an affair, get married, settle down with someone else then you go and marry whomever. But of course this is only possible if from beginning you are honest, not hiding for 10, 20 years and then take action only when you have been caught or found out. 

I was 8, when my parents asked me who do I love more. I said “both of you equally.” I saw the disbelief on their faces, as they reiterated that they won’t mind if I spoke my truth. I insisted “both of you equally!” . They finally gave up and moved on to another topic. But I remember the frustration their disbelief caused me as a child. How could I choose one part of my heart over another?

My father was a quiet man, content to sit in a corner and read his books. He was in the army, had simple needs and was away on another posting for majority of the time. My mother was a vivacious model, who loved sparkling conversations and parties. Coming from a stifling and violent household, she was experiencing freedom for the first time and wanted it all. The glitz, the glamour, the sophisticated and powerful people of show biz that gave her the platform to shine. 

They got married too early and grew up apart, each leading a life that the other would not get interested in. They could not talk on things that mattered to them. And so, the silence became lengthier. Their primary conversation became just me. 

From quiet acceptance, resentment creeped in. It covered the floor, the walls, creeping into my room where I prayed for the fights to stop till I fell asleep. When I woke up, there would be a coldness in my home. That coldness became a friend that greeted me when I came back from school each day. 

The first time my parents discussed the possibility of separating, I cried. I locked myself in my room and I cried till the tears won’t fall. It was my first heart break. 

The last time they told me, I locked myself in my room and I cried. I fell to my knees and cried, but this time mixed with grief was relief. With the relief, came guilt. Was I happy that my parents were separating? Yes, I was happy. I wanted the biting cold in my home gone. 

So, when my parents gave me a choice again, I chose my mother. My father held me on the kitchen floor, wept and promised never to leave me. I clung onto him and that promise, never believing that other half of my heart was to be punished for my choice.

My father married again, and never looked back at me. I learnt as a child not to trust promises, never to believe that those who love you, can’t just get up and leave. At some point, as I grew up and reached out to him for comfort, he told me that he can’t talk and doesn’t owe me anything.

It’s then that my love for him withered and died.

All I want to say by sharing my story is that if you’re unhappy in your marriage, please leave. Don’t stay for your child. Don’t hand them memories of a cold home. Don’t let them suffocate in a place where their parents don’t love each other. Resentment, even of the quiet kind, has a deafening sound.

But if you can, please love your children beyond your marriage. Please care when they are hurt. Please talk to them. Please let them believe in promises and the sanctimony of love. They want very little, just your happiness and a tiny irreplaceable corner in your heart. I hope you can do that much.

Why does it feel that you posted some research links without reading through and assumed others will not read through either. 

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

From NIH. Not exactly a religious organization.  In fact, I'd say NIH is one of THE premier scientific orgs in the world.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3091824/

Quotes from the study "This article reviews new research on this topic, emphasizing how it can inform policy debates about the role of marriage in reducing poverty and improving child outcomes"

"The current marriage debate centers on questions concerning the role of government in encouraging marriage and discouraging unmarried childbearing"

And at one point it even cities another study "Sometimes, marital breakup can be beneficial for children and adults, particularly in cases of high marital conflict or abuse"  Amato 2004 (link = https://www.jstor.org/stable/3600169?casa_token=by8nzE9XjuAAAAAA%3Atm46y51Dmt1Sgki0WY7AG-O72K6s8AVnzI-thFjW-bc8pL3zifaoTnBqCn4od-g2zYnEzeVLC_f3yNziLsOOkZyighokKuETi1cu-fU9a4v0XPU2C38&seq=4#metadata_info_tab_contents)

NIH is encouraging marriage for socioeconomic benefits. But doesn't draw any conclusions that unhappy people should not separate. 

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2006.00355.x

From the abstract "Findings indicate no differences in child well-being for children living in cohabiting stepfamilies and cohabiting 2-biological-parent families."

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0192513X08322776

From the abstract "The authors find that family structure has little impact on adolescent drug use once potential mediators are accounted for. Though there is minimal direct effect of family structure on adolescent drug use, family structure is significantly correlated with the four mediators."

Correlation is not causation. 

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2004.00025.x

This study has nothing to do with divorce and separation. It is about cohabiting families vs married families. And even so. 

From the abstracts - "Children living in two-biological-parent cohabiting families experience worse outcomes, on average, than those residing with two biological married parents"

And "Child well-being does not significantly differ among those in cohabiting versus married stepfamilies, two-biological-parent cohabiting families versus cohabiting stepfamilies, or either type of cohabiting family versus single-mother families."

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2001.00779.x

Another study that has nothing to do with divorce and separation. It just in general about family structure. 

And it states "We found that family income, mother's psychological functioning, and the quality of the home environment are particularly important for children's behavior"

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2003.00876.x

Once again a study about various structures. And it states clearly that while some family structures were less ideal the difference was socioeconomic. Correlation is not causation is an important thing to remember. 

"Teens living with cohabiting stepparents often fare worse than teens living with two biological married parents. Adolescents living in cohabiting stepfamilies experience greater disadvantage than teens living in married stepfamilies. Most of these differences, however, are explained by socioeconomic circumstances."

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2002.00489.x

Finally, a study that actually focuses on separation itself. BUT the study focuses on how parent-child relationships impact separation. And the conclusion "These results highlight the importance of interpersonal relationships within the family prior to parental separation"

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

It's easy to dismiss some societal outlooks as patriarchal or outdated, but some of it happens to be true. Not everything religious people have to say is untrue, either. Father Mendel proposed the principles of inheritance. 

It is easy to dismiss some societal outlooks as patriarchal or outdated because they are. And in the case of forcing unhappy couples to stay together for the children, it is toxic and leads to emotionally damaged people. 

Of course, this doesn't mean that religious people are wrong. Along with Gregor Mendel, there are tons of clergy scientists who made important contributions. And some religious beliefs are based in rationale - like not eating pork can be traced to ancient swine flus. And yes, nonreligious people can spew bullshit too. There are tons of nonreligious people spewing anti-vaxx and anti-mask sentiments. Tons of nonreligious people subscribe to the notion of staying together for the kids. 

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Ignoring actual research to advocate social experiments as the news articles in the quoted post suggest will end up hurting children. Would be easy for those psychologists and journalists to do since their children are not likely the ones getting affected. But when it comes to their own families...

The news articles I quoted are by practicing psychologists. They are not perfect and do make mistakes. But they base their practice and advice on research. Psychologists translate research into practice.

Children do better in married families, but that is usually due to socioeconomic factors than anything else. And let's not forget all stepfamilies and cohabiting families are not the results of divorce or separation. They happen due to death or unwed pregnancy too. You don't need to stay together for children. But you need to maintain a relationship with your children as a parental figure. As long as there are people who care for the children - it really doesn't matter what the family structure is. 

But in either case, if anyone, unfortunately, is in a situation where they are contemplating divorce or separation - please see a licensed therapist. Each family and situation is unique. You need to work with a professional to find whats best for your situation 

Originally posted by: BlackWitch

I was 8, when my parents asked me who do I love more. I said “both of you equally.” I saw the disbelief on their faces, as they reiterated that they won’t mind if I spoke my truth. I insisted “both of you equally!” . They finally gave up and moved on to another topic. But I remember the frustration their disbelief caused me as a child. How could I choose one part of my heart over another?

My father was a quiet man, content to sit in a corner and read his books. He was in the army, had simple needs and was away on another posting for majority of the time. My mother was a vivacious model, who loved sparkling conversations and parties. Coming from a stifling and violent household, she was experiencing freedom for the first time and wanted it all. The glitz, the glamour, the sophisticated and powerful people of show biz that gave her the platform to shine. 

They got married too early and grew up apart, each leading a life that the other would not get interested in. They could not talk on things that mattered to them. And so, the silence became lengthier. Their primary conversation became just me. 

From quiet acceptance, resentment creeped in. It covered the floor, the walls, creeping into my room where I prayed for the fights to stop till I fell asleep. When I woke up, there would be a coldness in my home. That coldness became a friend that greeted me when I came back from school each day. 

The first time my parents discussed the possibility of separating, I cried. I locked myself in my room and I cried till the tears won’t fall. It was my first heart break. 

The last time they told me, I locked myself in my room and I cried. I fell to my knees and cried, but this time mixed with grief was relief. With the relief, came guilt. Was I happy that my parents were separating? Yes, I was happy. I wanted the biting cold in my home gone. 

So, when my parents gave me a choice again, I chose my mother. My father held me on the kitchen floor, wept and promised never to leave me. I clung onto him and that promise, never believing that other half of my heart was to be punished for my choice.

My father married again, and never looked back at me. I learnt as a child not to trust promises, never to believe that those who love you, can’t just get up and leave. At some point, as I grew up and reached out to him for comfort, he told me that he can’t talk and doesn’t owe me anything.

It’s then that my love for him withered and died.

All I want to say by sharing my story is that if you’re unhappy in your marriage, please leave. Don’t stay for your child. Don’t hand them memories of a cold home. Don’t let them suffocate in a place where their parents don’t love each other. Resentment, even of the quiet kind, has a deafening sound.

But if you can, please love your children beyond your marriage. Please care when they are hurt. Please talk to them. Please let them believe in promises and the sanctimony of love. They want very little, just your happiness and a tiny irreplaceable corner in your heart. I hope you can do that much.

Lots and lots of hugs to you 🤗 Time has unpredictable ways of coming around and giving you closures on things when you least expect them, I'm sure you'll find yours too. :)

Thank you also for being brave enough to come forward with your personal story ... ❤️ and sharing how it shapes your outlook/opinion on the topic at hand.

Originally posted by: BlackWitch

I was 8, when my parents asked me who do I love more. I said “both of you equally.” I saw the disbelief on their faces, as they reiterated that they won’t mind if I spoke my truth. I insisted “both of you equally!” . They finally gave up and moved on to another topic. But I remember the frustration their disbelief caused me as a child. How could I choose one part of my heart over another?

My father was a quiet man, content to sit in a corner and read his books. He was in the army, had simple needs and was away on another posting for majority of the time. My mother was a vivacious model, who loved sparkling conversations and parties. Coming from a stifling and violent household, she was experiencing freedom for the first time and wanted it all. The glitz, the glamour, the sophisticated and powerful people of show biz that gave her the platform to shine. 

They got married too early and grew up apart, each leading a life that the other would not get interested in. They could not talk on things that mattered to them. And so, the silence became lengthier. Their primary conversation became just me. 

From quiet acceptance, resentment creeped in. It covered the floor, the walls, creeping into my room where I prayed for the fights to stop till I fell asleep. When I woke up, there would be a coldness in my home. That coldness became a friend that greeted me when I came back from school each day. 

The first time my parents discussed the possibility of separating, I cried. I locked myself in my room and I cried till the tears won’t fall. It was my first heart break. 

The last time they told me, I locked myself in my room and I cried. I fell to my knees and cried, but this time mixed with grief was relief. With the relief, came guilt. Was I happy that my parents were separating? Yes, I was happy. I wanted the biting cold in my home gone. 

So, when my parents gave me a choice again, I chose my mother. My father held me on the kitchen floor, wept and promised never to leave me. I clung onto him and that promise, never believing that other half of my heart was to be punished for my choice.

My father married again, and never looked back at me. I learnt as a child not to trust promises, never to believe that those who love you, can’t just get up and leave. At some point, as I grew up and reached out to him for comfort, he told me that he can’t talk and doesn’t owe me anything.

It’s then that my love for him withered and died.

All I want to say by sharing my story is that if you’re unhappy in your marriage, please leave. Don’t stay for your child. Don’t hand them memories of a cold home. Don’t let them suffocate in a place where their parents don’t love each other. Resentment, even of the quiet kind, has a deafening sound.

But if you can, please love your children beyond your marriage. Please care when they are hurt. Please talk to them. Please let them believe in promises and the sanctimony of love. They want very little, just your happiness and a tiny irreplaceable corner in your heart. I hope you can do that much.

T4S 

A million hugs and kisses to you ❤️❤️