Is Mardaani a misogynist word for a feminist film? - Page 2

Originally posted by: IAmLuvBolly

Very interesting. Does this mean the word “Mardaani” didn’t exist in the vernacular before the poem?  Because if it did then as great as the poem is it also has used a misogynistic word. And if the word didn’t exist before the poem then didn’t the poet herself use a variation of the word mard to describe a warrior woman?  Though as you said, at that time it was not seen as such since cultural sentiments and sensitivities were very different.  But that doesn’t apply in today’s times. 

It is difficult to tell if the poem is the first time "mardaani" was used because India has many oral storytelling traditions. But it is the earliest and most well-known use of the term. 

This is a case where a female poet with all good intentions coined a word to praise another woman's bravery. Which is why it presents a catch-22. 

If you focus on the poet's intent, you ignore the fact that using a root word "mard" which means male or macho to describe a woman is misogynistic. 

If you focus on the misogyny of the word, you erase the work and intent of a female poet which has misogynistic connotations of itself. 

Originally posted by: IAmLuvBolly

Using any variation of the word “man” to describe a woman’s bravery transcends cultures and languages unfortunately. Just as using a variation of the word “woman” to insult a man does.  

Ultimately it comes to how literal you want to get with words and their derivatives. Some people spell it womyn so that it doesn't have "man" in it. People object to terms like mankind, early-man and even human. 

I feel that is too much emphasis on the literal root word meaning. Because words and meanings can change and evolve with time, place, and context. Double negatives like "ain't got no" although bad grammar are common in many vernacular dialects. And the double positive "yeah right" is a sarcastic negative. 

Gay meant happy just a century ago. Old English writers used handsome to describe women. Pretty boy is a derogatory term in the west but desirable in K-pop and Japan even has the term bishonen. Fag is a slur for gay people in USA but means cigarette in UK. 

You can take "mardaani" as a word with the root "mard" and object to it as misogyny. 

Or you can let it evolve with time and context and take it simply to mean "brave woman"

I don't think the misogyny objection is wrong per se. But I think there are bigger fish to fry. If gender equality and feminism is the purpose, than there are much more crucial issues than semantics. 

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

On the surface level, the term "mardaani" sounds misogynistic. It implies that strength and bravery is a masculine trait. That women need to be "manlike" to display the traits. 

But "Mardaani" actually comes from a poem by Poet Subhadrakumari Chauhan. She lived in the early 1900s during the Indian freedom movement. She wrote a lot of poems about the freedom movement and freedom fighters. One of her famous poems is on Rani of Jhansi that goes"Khoob Ladi Mardani, Woh Toh Jhansi Waali Rani Thi"

Poet Chauhan just wanted to praise Rani of Laxmibai and her bravery. With good intent and poetic license she coined the term mardaani to refer to a brave woman. She wasn't saying "Rani of Jhansi is masculine" nor is she saying "bravery is masculine". She is simply saying "Rani of Jhansi is brave". 

The use of the term "mardaani" is a nod to Subhadrakumari's poetry and nothing more. To discard the term simply because it does not meet modern sensibilities would mean erasing the work and intent of a prominent female poet and her contribution to Hindi literature and culture. 

Sometimes we have to go beyond the knee-jerk reaction and explore. 

While I partly agree to the sentiment that we should be respectful to Subhadrakumari's poetry, it is also equally important and necessary that we must analyse every single facet of our literature and culture to meet the sensibilities of the modern age. To leave certain words alone without analysing them and citing cultural and literary importance as reasons is the opposite of exploring as you suggest.

While Etymology is important in literature,Semantic Shift is a common phenomenon that has happened in every single language in the world that does not live in isolation. Especially the lack of feminine adjectives to describe the same qualities appreciated in masculinity has become extremely apparent.

 Analysing words like Mardaani and acknowledging its well-meaning but still patriarchal and misogynist connotations pertaining to that age brings this problem to light in more ways than one. It should not be swept under the rug in the guise of being respectful to a female poet who herself was conditioned in a particular type of way in her era. It is not an erasure for her work. Its rather an analysis of her work with respect to our age,which no writer- female or male, should be exempted from. 

Originally posted by: Cpt.DudleySmith

Yes. Deeply misogynist, transphobic and patriarchal. Not to mention severely alienating for 56% of the non-Hindi speaking population of the country. What else can one expect in Modi's India.

Brutal 🤣

What should the title of the film be ??? 

Seriously? a supposed "feminist" film would not require to show such gory depiction of a sexual assault, that too in a freaking trailer to entice audiences.. adults in audience can fully understand what a crime means without the 80's style woman-screaming-in-pain-and-dragged-out-of-clothes filming, their only excuse to show such a graphic depiction is because seeing rape on-screen is actually exciting for many. As for the title, yes mardaani, when used in context of 21st century, is effectively praising the mard qualities.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

On the surface level, the term "mardaani" sounds misogynistic. It implies that strength and bravery is a masculine trait. That women need to be "manlike" to display the traits. 

But "Mardaani" actually comes from a poem by Poet Subhadrakumari Chauhan. She lived in the early 1900s during the Indian freedom movement. She wrote a lot of poems about the freedom movement and freedom fighters. One of her famous poems is on Rani of Jhansi that goes"Khoob Ladi Mardani, Woh Toh Jhansi Waali Rani Thi"

Poet Chauhan just wanted to praise Rani of Laxmibai and her bravery. With good intent and poetic license she coined the term mardaani to refer to a brave woman. She wasn't saying "Rani of Jhansi is masculine" nor is she saying "bravery is masculine". She is simply saying "Rani of Jhansi is brave". 

The use of the term "mardaani" is a nod to Subhadrakumari's poetry and nothing more. To discard the term simply because it does not meet modern sensibilities would mean erasing the work and intent of a prominent female poet and her contribution to Hindi literature and culture. 

Sometimes we have to go beyond the knee-jerk reaction and explore. 

@bold: Its meaning is that Rani of Jhansi fought like a man. No need to sugarcoat it. Still a lot of people praise girls for being brave by comparing them with boys. It is common but it is sexist. 

Originally posted by: hotchic2

But the word Mardani is derived from an actual hindi word 'Mard'. No connection with western or english words here.

But we are here trying to connect it to “misogynistic “ or “feminist” notions, whereas it’s history tells us it may be neither and therefore more nuanced than trying to fit into a western category of gendered terms. 

Mardaani 2 is not a feminist movie, it is a psychological thriller, where the hero of the story just happens to be a female.

Originally posted by: RegressiveThug

Mardaani 2 is not a feminist movie, it is a psychological thriller, where the hero of the story just happens to be a female.

How are you sure about that? This is not Murder 2. There will be women empowerment messages for sure in the film.

Originally posted by: Looney86

How are you sure about that? This is not Murder 2. There will be women empowerment messages for sure in the film.

Simbaa also had women empowerment messages, will you call it feminists movie?