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Originally posted by: Animal.Lover
I kinda agree with both of you about this, @aunty and @Prem.Aunty is absolutely right when she says, one's personal life should not affect the way we look at a man's (or lady's) craft. Taking Hrithik Roshan for example, since he has already been mentioned, I loved his performance in Kaabil, no doubt. But that's about it. My appreciation for him ends there. And I used to reeally like him once. Not like a fangirl, but I had a certain respect for him. However, the mess he has made with his callous comments against Kangana, I can probably never regard him the same way again. The same goes for Ranbir Kapoor. I still love his performances, but that's about it. Nothing more than that anymore.On the contrary, I deeply appreciate men like Shashi Kapoor, Surya (Tamil actor) and Abir Chatterjee (Bengali actor) much beyond their onscreen performances.So in terms of holding a certain amount of respect for a celebrity, I agree with Prem, when he says it takes more than just being good at his/her craft. Maybe it's just us 😳But then, exceptions do happen. Like there was a strong below the belt rumor against Shweta Basu Prasad a year back. I don't know if it's true, nonetheless it does not tarnish her image for me. Primarily because of her onscreen sincerity and offscreen maturity.As for Rajat, the rumor related to him never quite registered with me. And I kinda doubt it in good humor, because Rajat seems too socially challenged for such swag 😆 We have all seen him offscreen, interviews and all...so we can take an easy guess.Incidentally I was watching Bahubali The Beginning today (yeah, guess I am the last person who saw it this late 😆) and the amount of similarities that CN has borrowed from it is smirk worthy!Waise borrow kar hi rahe the toh poora hi kar lete. CN could have been about a fictional Chandra and Nandini. Rajat could have done excellently as adaptations of Amarendra and/or Mahendra Bahubali. Totally his kind of a role, if his height be excused.
Originally posted by: Animal.Lover
I kinda agree with both of you about this, @aunty and @Prem.Aunty is absolutely right when she says, one's personal life should not affect the way we look at a man's (or lady's) craft. Taking Hrithik Roshan for example, since he has already been mentioned, I loved his performance in Kaabil, no doubt. But that's about it. My appreciation for him ends there. And I used to reeally like him once. Not like a fangirl, but I had a certain respect for him. However, the mess he has made with his callous comments against Kangana, I can probably never regard him the same way again. The same goes for Ranbir Kapoor. I still love his performances, but that's about it. Nothing more than that anymore.On the contrary, I deeply appreciate men like Shashi Kapoor, Surya (Tamil actor) and Abir Chatterjee (Bengali actor) much beyond their onscreen performances.So in terms of holding a certain amount of respect for a celebrity, I agree with Prem, when he says it takes more than just being good at his/her craft. Maybe it's just us 😳But then, exceptions do happen. Like there was a strong below the belt rumor against Shweta Basu Prasad a year back. I don't know if it's true, nonetheless it does not tarnish her image for me. Primarily because of her onscreen sincerity and offscreen maturity.As for Rajat, the rumor related to him never quite registered with me. And I kinda doubt it in good humor, because Rajat seems too socially challenged for such swag 😆 We have all seen him offscreen, interviews and all...so we can take an easy guess.Incidentally I was watching Bahubali The Beginning today (yeah, guess I am the last person who saw it this late 😆) and the amount of similarities that CN has borrowed from it is smirk worthy!Waise borrow kar hi rahe the toh poora hi kar lete. CN could have been about a fictional Chandra and Nandini. Rajat could have done excellently as adaptations of Amarendra and/or Mahendra Bahubali. Totally his kind of a role, if his height be excused.
My dear Prem,
I am afraid you have not grasped the first thing about where I was coming from, which was probably my fault for not being clear enough. So let me try again, and if you still do not get it, I give up!😉
1) There is a major difference between public morality and private morality. Violations of the former are crimes against the law and the public good or both. Thus matchfixing, which is cheating, drug addiction or drug dealing, harassing women, domestic violence against a spouse, dowry demands and harassment, corruption, fraud, and of course crimes like the ones we read about daily in the papers, both violent ones and white collar ones, are the kinds of things that should put the perpetrators beyond the pale of public acceptance.
Private morality is related to marital loyalty. To being faithful to the marital partner for life.
2) My point is that failings in respect of private morality need not affect the character or even the greatness of a person in other ways. I do not know if you are aware of this, but all the Kennedys, including JFK, RFK and Edward Kennedy, were serial philanderers. So were Martin Luther King and Willy Brandt.
These failings in terms of their private morals did not in any way affect their greatness in public life or the tremendous significance of their achievements for the public good. The civil rights movement in the US would never have succeeded but for the Kennedys and Martin Luther King. Willy Brandt was a great leader for world peace, disarmament, the dismantlement of apartheid in South Africa, and decolonisation worldwide. But they were not good family men, though their families kept things under wraps.
In the 1960s and the 197os, the US media were also compliant and kept their affairs strictly confidential, even after the death of Marilyn Monroe. In doing so, they were wise, for the US public is a strange animal. That is the country with the highest divorce rate, the maximum percentage of children born out of wedlock, and endless affairs in the private lives of many average Americans Still, they want their leaders to be lily white in this respect. So, to make possible the public good that these leaders achieved, it was necessary to keep their image as family men too intact, so that they were not trashed and thrown out of office, and were able to implement their highly beneficial programmes.
The situation in France, for example, was totally different, and Presidents Mitterand and Chirac had no problems about their having had mistresses and illegitimate children. The French are less hypocritical than the Americans, that is all.
Edward Kennedy got into bad trouble over the Chappaquiddick scandal because the girl was drowned. But even there, he was able, over the next few decades of dedicated public service, to overcome that stigma and again become a respected senior statesman.
So one cannot trash JFK or Willy Brandt because they were not faithful to their wives. They were great in spite of that failing.
To revert, the American public reserves this moral standard for politicians, not for the Hollywood stars of the 1950s-1990s, who had endless marriages and almost as many affairs, or for the Madonnas and the bad boy rock stars of the entertainment industry. Tiger Woods fell more because the African Americans did not like his failure to identify with them than anything else. And if his game had not gone down, he would soon have ridden out that scandal.
3) To idolize an actor or a sports star for his skills is a sign of immaturity. Most of them have done nothing but perform well on screen or play a game well. Why should anyone put them on a pedestal for that? What good have these people ever done for their fellow human beings?
At the same time, to believe all the positive reports put out about them by their PR machines, as also the rumours against them, implicitly is also a sign of immaturity. I have always taken the former with a large pinch of salt, and as for the latter, I am not interested at all.
To revert, Amitabh Bachchan is a very good actor, and for that very reason his public persona is excellent, as are most of his performances. I admire him for that. But I would not put him on any pedestal, for I have no idea what he is really like, or what has he done to deserve to be called great in the sense of being a public benefactor.
Raj Kapoor was an excellent actor, but also a serial philanderer. Does that make him any the less of a great actor? No. But putting on a pedestal or thinking of him as a great or even a very good person, no way!
The very idea of putting the likes of the Khans or Hrithik or Dhoni or Kohli on a pedestal is laughable.
4) Finally, I watch an actor for his or her craft, and in any case, never, not even when I was your age, have I idolized any of them. Maybe I was born old! 😉 And unless he or she has violated public morality, I would not put that person beyond the pale.
Maybe this is not what you were taught at school, but do think about what I have said above. It might, just might, make you reconsider your cast in iron certitudes. Including about the point that character cannot be taught or developed or re-developed. That is completely wrong, as the Lord Buddha and the Lord Jesus would be the first to assert. And all our rishis and saints as well.
My eyes are sore and I have used up my whole laptop time for today on this post. I hope it is at least worth it.
Shyamala Aunty
Originally posted by: myviewprem
AuntyBut that is how i usually do. I look at the actor/sports guy etc if he/she is good in craft and if he is a decent human only than he/she becomes my fav. If he is good at his craft but not good human or decent human i do not make him my fav and usually do not watch his/her craft too many times(very rarely). I am talking of fav aunty in sports/acting etc means ideal person whose path you can follow or is believable.If by mistake listening to wrong PR i like a actor/sports person or even a business man/politician etc and then come to know he was not as he projected(or media projected) i just drop him off my list of fav. And i am no longer interested in them no matter how great they are in their craft.I think if a person knows a man is not decent human but still continues to love him than that man is encouraging the bad behavior of that person. Only when you adulate a public person even when he is wrong he is put on pedestal(be it actor, politician or business man, sportsman) that he gets more courage to misbehave and break law. I do not want to be part of that. I think many fans do(should do) that else tiger woods(armstrong etc) would not fall from grace never to really recover his past adulation. Call me some idealist but thats our school fault that they have taught us to think so.May be exposure to big bad outside world after few years may make me think only of craft not character. But till then thats how i judge(like/dislike/fan etc) a person not only by his craft but by character too. And i give more importance to character than craft for if craft is bad can be taught, character cannot be taught it does not change usually all life. It remains same no matter what.
[/QUOTE[QUOTE=sashashyam]My dear Prem,I am afraid I do not agree with the part in red at all. I do not care about anything but an actor's performance and I do not put any actor on a pedestal. He os she is not a deity !His or her private life is not my concern, only his performance. But if you or anyone else reacts the way you say you did, you also owe it to yourself not to believe all rumours blindly. Which you do not seem to have done.Hrithik was a fool, that is all. I don't see why his performance in Kaabil should be rated any less because of his folly in that case.As for matchfixing, that is something very different, for it reduces a match to a farce. A star having extra marital affairs, no matter how immoral it might be, has nothing to do with one's assessment of his or her acting. And if you knew the whole truth about the private lives of most actors, you would end up not being able to watch any of them onscreen!😆Shyamala Aunty
[QUOTE=myviewprem]I knowEven i read the link up reports on JA forum. Sometimes when someone reads report of such affairs no matter how false your respect for the actor goes down a bit because we hold actors on a pedestal and they can do no wrong. Hence avantika wrote that, i think many fans felt so only avantika wrote it. That does not means we are wrong.I liked Hrithik Roshan as an actor but the way he behaved with Kangana after she called him silly ex etc now I do not watch his movies on TV too. I had enough of him acting real life its so much that i do not care what acting he does in movies anymore 😆. Even many cricket heroes fell from my eyes after all the fixing, nowadays i watch only world cups or international matches(that too not as much as before). So i totally can understand what she meant.
Originally posted by: sashashyam
My dear Prem,
I am afraid you have not grasped the first thing about where I was coming from, which was probably my fault for not being clear enough. So let me try again, and if you still do not get it, I give up!😉
1) There is a major difference between public morality and private morality. Violations of the former are crimes against the law and the public good or both. Thus matchfixing, which is cheating, drug addiction or drug dealing, harassing women, domestic violence against a spouse, dowry demands and harassment, corruption, fraud, and of course crimes like the ones we read about daily in the papers, both violent ones and white collar ones, are the kinds of things that should put the perpetrators beyond the pale of public acceptance.
Private morality is related to marital loyalty. To being faithful to the marital partner for life.
2) My point is that failings in respect of private morality need not affect the character or even the greatness of a person in other ways. I do not know if you are aware of this, but all the Kennedys, including JFK, RFK and Edward Kennedy, were serial philanderers. So were Martin Luther King and Willy Brandt.
These failings in terms of their private morals did not in any way affect their greatness in public life or the tremendous significance of their achievements for the public good. The civil rights movement in the US would never have succeeded but for the Kennedys and Martin Luther King. Willy Brandt was a great leader for world peace, disarmament, the dismantlement of apartheid in South Africa, and decolonisation worldwide. But they were not good family men, though their families kept things under wraps.
In the 1960s and the 197os, the US media were also compliant and kept their affairs strictly confidential, even after the death of Marilyn Monroe. In doing so, they were wise, for the US public is a strange animal. That is the country with the highest divorce rate, the maximum percentage of children born out of wedlock, and endless affairs in the private lives of many average Americans Still, they want their leaders to be lily white in this respect. So, to make possible the public good that these leaders achieved, it was necessary to keep their image as family men too intact, so that they were not trashed and thrown out of office, and were able to implement their highly beneficial programmes.
The situation in France, for example, was totally different, and Presidents Mitterand and Chirac had no problems about their having had mistresses and illegitimate children. The French are less hypocritical than the Americans, that is all.
Edward Kennedy got into bad trouble over the Chappaquiddick scandal because the girl was drowned. But even there, he was able, over the next few decades of dedicated public service, to overcome that stigma and again become a respected senior statesman.
So one cannot trash JFK or Willy Brandt because they were not faithful to their wives. They were great in spite of that failing.
To revert, the American public reserves this moral standard for politicians, not for the Hollywood stars of the 1950s-1990s, who had endless marriages and almost as many affairs, or for the Madonnas and the bad boy rock stars of the entertainment industry. Tiger Woods fell more because the African Americans did not like his failure to identify with them than anything else. And if his game had not gone down, he would soon have ridden out that scandal.
3) To idolize an actor or a sports star for his skills is a sign of immaturity. Most of them have done nothing but perform well on screen or play a game well. Why should anyone put them on a pedestal for that? What good have these people ever done for their fellow human beings?
At the same time, to believe all the positive reports put out about them by their PR machines, as also the rumours against them, implicitly is also a sign of immaturity. I have always taken the former with a large pinch of salt, and as for the latter, I am not interested at all.
To revert, Amitabh Bachchan is a very good actor, and for that very reason his public persona is excellent, as are most of his performances. I admire him for that. But I would not put him on any pedestal, for I have no idea what he is really like, or what has he done to deserve to be called great in the sense of being a public benefactor.
Raj Kapoor was an excellent actor, but also a serial philanderer. Does that make him any the less of a great actor? No. But putting on a pedestal or thinking of him as a great or even a very good person, no way!
The very idea of putting the likes of the Khans or Hrithik or Dhoni or Kohli on a pedestal is laughable.
4) Finally, I watch an actor for his or her craft, and in any case, never, not even when I was your age, have I idolized any of them. Maybe I was born old! 😉 And unless he or she has violated public morality, I would not put that person beyond the pale.
Maybe this is not what you were taught at school, but do think about what I have said above. It might, just might, make you reconsider your cast in iron certitudes. Including about the point that character cannot be taught or developed or re-developed. That is completely wrong, as the Lord Buddha and the Lord Jesus would be the first to assert. And all our rishis and saints as well.
My eyes are sore and I have used up my whole laptop time for today on this post. I hope it is at least worth it.
Shyamala Aunty
Originally posted by: shailusri1983
Just came back for a short while and saw this debate between Aunty and Prem on morality and ethics of public figures and icons. I agree with Aunty. In an actor I would see only his acting, in a cricketer only his cricketing talent, in a singer only his singing, in a politician his administrative and political acumen, and very high morals or etiquette only in a Shankaracharya, Pope, or Muslim Imam. Unless and until the others icons have done something irredeemable and irreversible, their personal life would and should be of no concern to the general public. Another very important point which many who are discussing this issue or forming opinions based on the report seem to have forgotten, the original news report just did not furnish any valid or believable proofs. It seemed like a gossip, mudslinging sort of report. All of us here should not be forming opinions or passing judgements against the actor based on that. Just as you read the article, please do give the actor the benefit of doubt that it might have been a plain rumor or gossip with no valid basis. Trial by media and general public against these icons keeps happening all the time, with and without their own fault. But it is highly unfortunate. We should allow them the space to lead their private personal lives based on their choices, preferences and decisions and not our code of personal morality and ethics.