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Surya Sundarraj Sriram

@Surya_krsnbhakt

Dazzler

Posted: 11 years ago

#101

Coming to your Dumbledore issue.

Ok, you are saying that Dumbledore should have told Harry about the hallows.

In your post, you have presented a statement, " Dumbledore at that age or around that age was obsessed with Deathly Hallows,". And there lies the answer to your question.

Albus knew the perils of searching for the Hallows, having had the first hand experience of it.. he knew that they could divert you from whatever you do, that you will be forced to seek them..

And mind you, the Hallows didn't have any direct role in defeating Voldemort - except the invisibility Cloak.

(You may argue the Elder Wand's case, but I am coming to that later.)

As we saw in the Deathly Hallows, once harry even heard about them, he was obsessed with them like hell. Now imagine if Dumbledore had told him, "Harry go and destroy all the horcruxes. Oh and one more thing. There are three objects called as Deathly hallows, one of them is your cloak, another is that ring in the horcrux, and another is my wand. They make one Master of Death."

Wouldn't Harry be totally off track? Like, someone gives him the Hallows in his hand, what would you expect him to do? Its not that he was a great Karma-Yogi or something, he was still 17, so obviously these thoughts would fill his mind?

And you have one of the Hallows being a Horcrux, and one requiring you to defeat Dumbledore, and Harry would never do that.

Now coming to the Elder Wand. IT started when Voldemort invaded his tomb and took the wand. The crackpot fool thought he had defeated Dumbledore. But he was wrong. And that's where all the problems, or should I say fun, began. Problems, for him. Fun, for us.

If Harry hadn't known about the Hallows, even then he would have defeated Voldemort, because all he required was the Wand, Elder or not.

Rereading the Deathly Hallows, I am quoting Dumbledore:

[quote]

"Why did you have to make it so difficult?"

Dumbledore's smile was tremulous.

"I am afraid I counted on Miss Granger to slow you up, Harry. I was afraid that your hot head might dominate your good heart. I was scared that, if presented outright with the facts about those tempting objects, you might seize the Hallows as I did, at the wrong time for the wrong reasons. If you laid hands on them, I wanted you to possess them safely. You are the true master of death, because the true master does not seek to run away from Death. He accepts that he must die, and understands that there are far, far worse things in the living world than dying."

[/quote]

Now, I know this is the crux of your argument, but just analyse this. You are emphasising on "your hot head... good heart." I am emphasising on "I was afraid".

You are concentrating on "if presented with... wrong reasons." I am stressing on, "I was scared".

And Dumbledore's fears were partly true. Because for a brief period of time, his hot head did dominate his good heart.

And ultimately, I come back to my stance. The Hallows were just aids in defeating Voldemort. They were not the main requirements of battle, and Harry could fight even without the knowledge of the Hallows.

If I failed once again, Sorry.

You can then point out what exactly you want, and encircle my mistakes in red, and put a zero in the corner.

Edited by Surya_krsnbhakt - 11 years ago

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Surya Sundarraj Sriram

@Surya_krsnbhakt

Dazzler

Posted: 11 years ago

#102

Ok I have a feeling you are posting these questions just to see us stumble and chuckle...😕(😉)

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983175

Suspended

Posted: 11 years ago

#103

Originally posted by: Surya_krsnbhakt
Ok since you are highly unsatisfied with my replies (which means I have failed), let's look at it from your point of view.
Felix: I was never meaning to say that you suggest using it like to directl;y destroy horcruxes.😆
You thought I was saying take the potion and chuck it on a horcrux?🤣
Regarding the second point, i.e. preparing it before the mission started.. Well you remember the last part of OotP, where Dumbledore says he has made big mistakes in guiding Harry and that he had to tell him lots, but left it all thinking he was too young? Well now Harry deserved to know all that, didn't he? Plus Albus' excitement whhen he found Marvolo Gaunt's Ring and tried to destroy it using the Sword, it affected him right? He found out he only had a year left to live. And in that one year, he had to discover all the horcruxes, go and investigate people, understand Voldemort's past, educate Harry about these issues, and entrust him with these difficult tasks! Do you think he would have time to brew up Felix Felicis?
Regarding why he couldn't ask others:
Hermione - for sure no, she is a student!
The other teachers - Secrets and lies, that's how we grew up, and Albus, he was a natural.

OK Got what I am trying to say?
Or do I get just pass?

Edit: Plus you say Albus could have left them a huge stock of Felix, but in the quote just above your post, you have pasted, "Felix Felicis is highly toxiz in large quantities..."
So, you get me now?

Phew !!.. ... FINALLY !.. something concrete to discuss about.. now thats more like the Surya i knew about.. i see now we are moving in a "constructive" direction..⭐️

Lets look at this objectively,

1. Firstly, thankyou for clearing out ur intentions about use of Felix Felicis..for a while there, i honestly thought u were talking about me suggesting using Felix Felicis instead of Basilisk Fangs or Gryffindor Sword..🤢..as comical as it sounds, it certainly is a relief to know that isnt the case..😆..

2. Now about the Limited Period of Time that Dumbly was left with ( i tell you, this point regularly pops up when someone jumps to Dumbly's defence 😆 )..as i said " AFTER the mission started "... and when do u think this "mission" really started ?.. do you think it started by the end of 6th book when Slughorn's memory was finally revealed ?.. in that case, i must beg to differ , Dumbledore suspected the existence of "MULTIPLE horcruxes " right from the end of second book.. this theory of Dumbledore was almost confirmed by the end of 4th book..moreover, Dumbly always knew that Harry must be the one to finish off Voldy owing to the prophecy which only he heard clearly before Harry was even born..so now tell me , How much TIME do you think Dumbly had for the preparation of this mission ?..and its not unlike Dumbly to have granted permission to use 'cheat code' for the "Greater Good" ...

3. Next point, Dumbledore's secretive nature.. yes that is an unfortunate habbit of Dumbledore i must admit .. ( infact there is a very valid point raised by one of the participating member here, Almas , about the insane secrecy surrounding the horcrux mission which I was able to clarify only to certain extent, so if u r upto the task, let me know, i ll give u the direct links to this doubt & the following clarification in the next post & you can try to put forth ur views )..yes, but you forgetting another brutal trait of Dumbledore- the man stops at nothing for "The Greater Good".. even Dumbledore himself notwithstanding his secretive nature , let in Snape & Harry into quite a few secrets since it was a necessity..so yes, Dumbly is perfectly capable of sacrificing this habit for the greater good..plus, who is to say that Dumbly would have announced the world that he himself is brewing the potion ?..or has appointed somebody to this task?..he could have very well persuaded Slug or Snape for this task.. and do you think Slug, Snape & Hermoine were the only ones on whom he could trust this task ?..the man had contacts & influence !..even outside the castle !

4.Finally, "Felix Felicis in large quantities is highly toxic"..yes indeed it is !..and that is why i think it would have been perfect to enhance the plot of the story..the way i see it, Dumbledore could have left huge stack of felix felicis with Proper Instructions (instead of those useless puzzles) in order to completely negate any possibility of over dose of the potion , if possible, he could have left some sort of magical charm on the stack of potion to ensure that it will be used wisely..u see now, how perfect it would have been for the plot of the story, it wouldnt have killed the plot but would have enhanced it..plus he could have involved more trusted members of the Order in this task so that multiple people's luck could be used alternatively instead of just 3 people's luck..but ofcourse, that goes against Dumbledore's secrecy policy , still it was for the "Greater Good" & it would have been a choice between "secrecy" & "greater good".. Dumbly's call !.. but if Dumbly still preferred secrecy then i would say , still 3 people's luck being used alternatively doesnt sound that bad either..😊

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983175

Suspended

Posted: 11 years ago

#104

Originally posted by: Surya_krsnbhakt
Coming to your Dumbledore issue.
Ok, you are saying that Dumbledore should have told Harry about the hallows.
In your post, you have presented a statement, " Dumbledore at that age or around that age was obsessed with Deathly Hallows,". And there lies the answer to your question.

Albus knew the perils of searching for the Hallows, having had the first hand experience of it.. he knew that they could divert you from whatever you do, that you will be forced to seek them..
And mind you, the Hallows didn't have any direct role in defeating Voldemort - except the invisibility Cloak.

(You may argue the Elder Wand's case, but I am coming to that later.)

As we saw in the Deathly Hallows, once harry even heard about them, he was obsessed with them like hell. Now imagine if Dumbledore had told him, "Harry go and destroy all the horcruxes. Oh and one more thing. There are three objects called as Deathly hallows, one of them is your cloak, another is that ring in the horcrux, and another is my wand. They make one Master of Death."
Wouldn't Harry be totally off track? Like, someone gives him the Hallows in his hand, what would you expect him to do? Its not that he was a great Karma-Yogi or something, he was still 17, so obviously these thoughts would fill his mind?

And you have one of the Hallows being a Horcrux, and one requiring you to defeat Dumbledore, and Harry would never do that.

Now coming to the Elder Wand. IT started when Voldemort invaded his tomb and took the wand. The crackpot fool thought he had defeated Dumbledore. But he was wrong. And that's where all the problems, or should I say fun, began. Problems, for him. Fun, for us.

If Harry hadn't known about the Hallows, even then he would have defeated Voldemort, because all he required was the Wand, Elder or not.

Rereading the Deathly Hallows, I am quoting Dumbledore:

[quote]
"Why did you have to make it so difficult?"
Dumbledore's smile was tremulous.
"I am afraid I counted on Miss Granger to slow you up, Harry. I was afraid that your hot head might dominate your good heart. I was scared that, if presented outright with the facts about those tempting objects, you might seize the Hallows as I did, at the wrong time for the wrong reasons. If you laid hands on them, I wanted you to possess them safely. You are the true master of death, because the true master does not seek to run away from Death. He accepts that he must die, and understands that there are far, far worse things in the living world than dying."
[/quote]

Now, I know this is the crux of your argument, but just analyse this. You are emphasising on "your hot head... good heart." I am emphasising on "I was afraid".
You are concentrating on "if presented with... wrong reasons." I am stressing on, "I was scared".
And Dumbledore's fears were partly true. Because for a brief period of time, his hot head did dominate his good heart.
And ultimately, I come back to my stance. The Hallows were just aids in defeating Voldemort. They were not the main requirements of battle, and Harry could fight even without the knowledge of the Hallows.

If I failed once again, Sorry.
You can then point out what exactly you want, and encircle my mistakes in red, and put a zero in the corner.

Surya, I certainly appreciate the efforts that u have put in here.. and point raised by you, are the ones that was raised before as well , the following is what i have to say :

1. Dumbledore feared that Harry's hot head might dominate his pure heart ?.. right ?.. and since Dumbly had first hand experience in Hallows ( which he was ashamed of for obvious reasons ) & knew Harry well, Dumbly's fears are completely justified !.. yes that I DO AGREE !

2. But that still doesnt explain why Dumbly would leave those puzzles & count on Hermoine to slow down Harry ?????.. as u very well know, Dumbly had firsthand experience with the hallows, who do think was more suited to guide Harry ?.. Dumbledore or Hermoine??..

3. By leaving those useless puzzles for Hermoine, it served the EXACT OPPOSITE intent..Hermoine herself wasnt sure of the hallows & when one by one things started to pop up regarding the hallows , it made Harry think that Dumbledore probably wanted him to possess the 3 hallows & be the master of death.. now tell me, who could have avoided such a misconception effectively by talking/guiding directly & clearly ?.. Dumbledore or Hermoine?

4. Finally, I am not even sure y the last book was name "The Deathly Hallows" , the hallows practically played no part except providing Dumbledore a rather questionable history...Voldy was never intrested in it & Harry wasnt supposed to be intrested in it .. what was the point of those teasing puzzles ??!!

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Surya Sundarraj Sriram

@Surya_krsnbhakt

Dazzler

Posted: 11 years ago

#105

Originally posted by: Quixotic5

4.Finally, "Felix Felicis in large quantities is highly toxic"..yes indeed it is !..and that is why i think it would have been perfect to enhance the plot of the story..the way i see it, Dumbledore could have left huge stack of felix felicis with Proper Instructions (instead of those useless puzzles) in order to completely negate any possibility of over dose of the potion , if possible, he could have left some sort of magical charm on the stack of potion to ensure that it will be used wisely..u see now, how perfect it would have been for the plot of the story, it wouldnt have killed the plot but would have enhanced it..plus he could have involved more trusted members of the Order in this task so that multiple people's luck could be used alternatively instead of just 3 people's luck..but ofcourse, that goes against Dumbledore's secrecy policy , still it was for the "Greater Good" & it would have been a choice between "secrecy" & "greater good".. Dumbly's call !.. but if Dumbly still preferred secrecy then i would say , still 3 people's luck being used alternatively doesnt sound that bad either..😊

The thing is, the only three things we know about Felix are:

1. Its liquid luck

2. Overdose is poisonous

3. It takes six months preparation.

So we don't know anything else about the potion, and therefore cannot comment on what DUmbledore could have done. If we knew all about the potion then maybe, but here we are talking of something, about which we know so little. And that, I think, negates your whole argument.

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983175

Suspended

Posted: 11 years ago

#106

Originally posted by: Surya_krsnbhakt
Ok I have a feeling you are posting these questions just to see us stumble and chuckle...😕(😉)

What ?!.. NO!.. these are genuine doubts !..😊

hmm..if u really wanna chuckle, i suggest you go through my Hagrid's birth doubt !..😆.. on second thoughts, i can already see what u might post as a clarifiaction to this perticular doubt..there are various "analogies" to be drawn in this case ..😉 😛 😆

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Surya Sundarraj Sriram

@Surya_krsnbhakt

Dazzler

Posted: 11 years ago

#107

Originally posted by: Quixotic5

What ?!.. NO!.. these are genuine doubts !..😊

hmm..if u really wanna chuckle, i suggest you go through my Hagrid's birth doubt !..😆.. on second thoughts, i can already see what u might post as a clarifiaction to this perticular doubt..there are various "analogies" to be drawn in this case ..😉 😛 😆

Actually no, I am equally stumped on the Hagrid thing.

We don't have half-giants in the Puranas.😆

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983175

Suspended

Posted: 11 years ago

#108

Originally posted by: Surya_krsnbhakt

The thing is, the only three things we know about Felix are:
1. Its liquid luck
2. Overdose is poisonous
3. It takes six months preparation.
So we don't know anything else about the potion, and therefore cannot comment on what DUmbledore could have done. If we knew all about the potion then maybe, but here we are talking of something, about which we know so little. And that, I think, negates your whole argument.

Yes !!.. entire thing is an assumption !.. but that hardly negates 'the argument'.. the argument here is why wasnt this option even considered ?.. and why arent there enough reasons in the book to support the absence of this option ??.. if Harry could use the potion to extract the crucial info out of Slughorn in just one evening, after a whole year of efforts & succeed in completing the task given to him by Dumbly , then this option certainly should have been considered while attempting the Mammoth task left behind by Dumbly ..

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983175

Suspended

Posted: 11 years ago

#109

Originally posted by: Surya_krsnbhakt

Actually no, I am equally stumped on the Hagrid thing.
We don't have half-giants in the Puranas.😆

Really ? 😕... i thought there was something about Bheema fathering brave warrior with a giant/rakshasee/danav or something ?.. 😕..or m i confusing it with something else ?..🤔

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Surya Sundarraj Sriram

@Surya_krsnbhakt

Dazzler

Posted: 11 years ago

#110

Originally posted by: Quixotic5

Really ? 😕... i thought there was something about Bheema fathering brave warrior with a giant/rakshasee/danav or something ?.. 😕..or m i confusing it with something else ?..🤔

Rakshasas are not Giants. At least not in the usual sense. They are shape-shifters. And Ghatotkacha was born because Hidimba took the form of a human to marry Bheema.