Do you think the Ramayan and Mahabharat are real? - Page 20

Originally posted by: coolpurvi

The Statement " I believe in Myth" is logically self-contradictory. I think u r confused

Dear coolpurvi, if you want to quote someone, you must do it in a verbatim manner, that is 'word-by-word'.. changing the words of someone is a wrong way of quotation..

And I'm really not confused about my views.. let's clear out if there is any.. 😊

Mythology refers to a body of folklore/myths/legends that a particular culture believes to be true and that often use the supernatural to interpret natural events and to explain the nature of the universe and humanity (wikipedia).. If I'm part of Hindu culture, then I also BELIEVE that these stories of Ramayana and MB are true, as this is how the mythology is defined... but my beliefs can't be taken as a proof of their historicity.. I believe in them because they define our Gods.. It is not necessary to trust them as history to believe in them.. I think some earlier posts from this discussion can clear your confusion..

And in no way the word 'myth' is antonym of the word 'truth'.. the words 'false' and 'myths' are totally separate as two shores of a river.. So, "I believe in myth" is not a logically self-contradictory statement.

Cheers..

Originally posted by: supermaverick

Before declaring anything historical why do you repeatedly keep evading from answering a simple question raised by many including myself & shyam.rathi on repeated occasions? The issue is Ramayana is supposed to have occured in Treta Yuga which is at least 700000 years back whereas Human beings are scientifically determined to be only 200000 years old. To make it really simple I will give a multiple choice answer to you:

A. Ramayana didnot occur as early as 700000 years back but within those 200000 years. The Hindu timeline of different yugas need modification.

B. Ramayana didnot actually occur at all.

C. Those scientists donot know what they are talking about. Human beings existed earlier than that.

So is it A,B or C?

The answer 'C' is a safe escape for anyone believing in the historicity of our epics. Let's see how many of the 'opposition members' 😉 choose A or B..

Originally posted by: supermaverick

Before declaring anything historical why do you repeatedly keep evading from answering a simple question raised by many including myself & shyam.rathi on repeated occasions? The issue is Ramayana is supposed to have occured in Treta Yuga which is at least 700000 years back whereas Human beings are scientifically determined to be only 200000 years old. To make it really simple I will give a multiple choice answer to you:

A. Ramayana didnot occur as early as 700000 years back but within those 200000 years. The Hindu timeline of different yugas need modification.

B. Ramayana didnot actually occur at all.

C. Those scientists donot know what they are talking about. Human beings existed earlier than that.

So is it A,B or C?

Originally posted by: supermaverick

I am not here to DISPROVE Mahabharat/Ramayana. I am just expressing some doubts. In fact I love those stories and I truly wish they were true. But I don't believe in them blindly disregarding modern knowledge.

However if you make definitive statements like "THEY ARE NOTHING BUT ANCIENT HISTORY" then the BURDEN OF PROOF lies on you and you have to clear any doubts that may arise.

lemme intrude again😆
@supermaverick
i am glad you love those stories, i thought you were against them completely 😕 *phew* its good to hear people still love these stories even though they doubt their credibility and i think it should be that way rather than completely disapproving them. doubts bring you closer to the truth.

and now for some opinions of my own.
you said " But I don't believe in them blindly disregarding modern knowledge."
atleast you think the knowledge through which you measure the credibility of these epics is "modern". he he.😉
"modern" and "ancient" has a lot of difference, you know.😛

now for the calculations you presented, i went back some pages to see the actual post where you presented these "yuga calculations"
actually these calculations are not definite. these are mere interpretation of shlokas present some part in Rig Veda and more in Manusmriti and Bhagavatham,these interpretations can or cannot be true.
the fact that we are not answering this simple question, which is infact not very simple, is not because we don't have facts, its because we don't have clear facts. its actually very easy to see that for ordinary people like us ,an internet connection or a mere library book can't supply the required knowledge to interpret these extremely difficult sanskrit shlokas to reach our own conclusion. but on the other hand it is very easy for even us to gather information which can help us put forward arguments against these calculations on the basis of "modern" knowledge.

now since you have presented one kind of such interpretations, i will present another kind, you can check wiki for this too(i think i first saw it there).this interpretation is by Sri Yukteswar(1949)
Chatwaryahuh sahastrani varsanam tatkritam yugam
Tasya tawchhati sandhya sandhyanshashcha tathavidhih (I.69)
(the Krita (satya) yug consists of four thousand years, with 400 years each of the
beginning and end transitions (sandhyas), making it 4,800 years.)

Itaresu sasandhyesu sasandhyanshesu cha trisu
Ekapayen vertante sahastrani shatani cha (I.70)

(Of the remaining three yugas, the duration of each succeeding yuga and its
transition periods (Sandhya and Sandhyadamsa, or dawn and eve) is less than
that of its predecessor by one thousand and one hundred years .) 1000+100(dawn)+100(eve)=1200.

now summing the both up...the yugas are as follows
krita/satya yug= 4800 yrs
treta yug= 3600 yrs
dwapar yug=2400 yrs
kali yug= 1200 yrs

it is a total sum of 12000 yrs. actually there are two pairs of 12000 yrs, summing it up to 24000 yrs.

explanation (you can skip it if you want to, to get to the conclusion)

Sri Yukteswar, uses an astronomical argument of sun revolving around some star in about 24,000 years of earth(i had heard there have been talks about some twin sun theory/dual star theory, and it might be possible, right?)' a celestial phenomenon which causes the backward movement of the equinoctial points around zodiac. The sun is also suggested to be revolving a grand center called Vishnunabhi(center mass of the entire universe or something, about which there has been some scientific talks about), which is believed to be the seat of the creative power, Brahma, referred to as universal magnetism.
As the sun goes around its star (or "dual" as it is referred by Sri Yukteswar), it comes to the place nearest to the grand center, the seat of Brahma, dharma, the mental virtue becomes so developed that man can easily comprehend all, even spirit of mysteries, according to Sri Yukteswar . This even takes place when the Autumnal Equinox comes to the first point of Aries. As sun takes the round for another 12,000 years in its orbit, it reaches the farthest point from the grand center. At this point the Autumnal Equinox is on the first point of Libra, and dharma, the mental virtue, is such a reduced state that the man is not able to grasp anything beyond gross material creation. From this point on, the journey of sun continues for another 12,000 years during which dharma, the mental virtue, continues to evolve gradually expanding on the human understanding of the mysteries of the universe.
The pair of 12,000 years as the descending and ascending arcs on the yuga chakra, are referred to as Dev yugas or Electric couple. According to the Manusmriti, a dev yug comprises of 12,000 years that consists of the chaturygugas (four yugas ' Satya, Treta, Dwapar, and Kali).
although it is explained in such a way It would be more appropriate for an astronomer to provide a commentary on the astronomical connection of the yug cycle.
Although this approach was made public in 1894 as Kaivalya Darshanam (Sanskrit), and later as Holy
Science in 1949 (in English), the logic and the scientific moorings of the arguments presented have not been picked up by Sanskritists, philosophers, or scientists, in the past 57 years. Consequently, many descriptions of yug cycle appear to be ridiculously computed as millions of years, which are not sustainable from archeological and scientific data, let alone the historical data.
An astronomical phenomenon that could be relevant to this discussion is the precession of Earth's axis that takes about 26,000 years .The time scale is certainly similar to the 24,000 years predicted by Swami
Yukteshwar, and difference may be explained to certain extent in counting the years in the two systems, and any uncertainty in the variation is the inclination of the axis of Earth's inclination.

end of explanation.

so that means, taking into account the pair of 12000 yrs or 24000 yrs. we can count the yugas in the following way.
Ascending cycle of 12000(krita to kali)
krita/satya- 4800 yrs
treta-3600 yrs
dwapar-2400 yrs
kali-1200 yrs
again
descending cycle of 12000
kali-4800 yrs
dwapar-3600 yrs
treta-2400 yrs
krita/satya-1200 yrs
now why did i keep the values same??
its because it is written in the text that subdivision of years is in the ratio of 4:3:2:1
now the major confusion which arises in other interpretations which inflates the numbers into millions of yrs is because calculations are often confused to be based on dev days/dev years.
it might be misinterpreted that 1 yr of human is equal to 1 dev day. so the calculation follows...
one year of devas is considered as 360 human years on Earth. Therefore, 1,200 years for Kali yug is normally calculated as 1,200 x 360 = 432,000 years.this is the root of all the confusion.it is a misinterpretation for the following reasons....
1)there is no where properly mentioned that dev years are to be taken into account while calculating yugas
2) dev year can be simply equal to human years. i.e 1 human year=1 dev year.(can be a result of misinterpretation)

so owing to the above "might" be possible calculations.
ramayan must have taken place in between 5100 yrs+2400 yrs+3600 yrs = 11100 yrs and not million years ago.
mahabharat in between 5100 yrs+2400yrs=7500 yrs

and there is still (1200+4800)-5100 yrs= 900 yrs left of kali yug and not some million years.
you might raise questions about the scientific theories(because Yukeswar uses definite values of years), but as a finance student i might not be able to defend myself there. however i think it upto some extent explains the calculations.

and about the "age of human beings on earth" thingy. i think the research has been done on the oldest-found-till-date human fossil's DNA found in Africa and with the help of molecular biology."till-date" brings forth a lot of doubts, doesn't it??😳
and you also wrote that hindu sages or Hinduism doesn't know/mention anything of evolution of species, are you sure? because if i were you i would research a bit again. you know the answers are hidden,not written explicitly.

now for some philosophical thoughts on this.
science is a self-correcting discipline. it pays more importance to "observations" by different "senses". if i cannot touch,feel,see,hear,taste something, its usually not there in the books of science right??
Hinduism states that senses are the lowest of all observations or ways of gaining knowledge. it states that senses are superior to sense objects,mind is superior to senses,intellect is superior to the mind and self is superior to intellect. self here means your "internal" senses, your wisdom,your belief, everything which makes the inner you, this inner self can only connect to the divine and nothing else.
so science is basically limited in terms of this philosophy, spirituality(not religion) is unlimited. owing to this,you cannot always explain spirituality in terms of science. how can a grain of sand explain what lies in the entire desert?? sorry for being freaky here. thats what i think, however your opinions can be different.

*phew* it was a long post. he he 😆

Have you guys heard of the under-water excavation going on in Dwaraka?They have found the "dwaraka" city of Shri KRishna and they are going to make it an under water museum soon.If you ever go to Kurushetra there is a museum called -"shri Krishna" in the complex of Panorma Science Center.step into that museum and you willl find some articles of Lord Krishna's period(articles that have been dug out in the under-water excavation).
That's what we call"sone ki Dwaraka" (the golden city-Dwaraka)

Originally posted by: secretz

Have you guys heard of the under-water excavation going on in Dwaraka?They have found the "dwaraka" city of Shri KRishna and they are going to make it an under water museum soon.If you ever go to Kurushetra there is a museum called -"shri Krishna" in the complex of Panorma Science Center.step into that museum and you willl find some articles of Lord Krishna's period(articles that have been dug out in the under-water excavation).
That's what we call"sone ki Dwaraka" (the golden city-Dwaraka)

Also, thanks a lot drymaple for giving us such a thorough explanation of the dates of Ramyan and Mahabharat.👏 It was a very interesting analysis to read.

Thanks dryample to have give us this useful informationa bout the 2 epics !!!

@ friends !