ahankar - episode 21 - Page 4

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mnx12 thumbnail
Posted: 9 years ago
#31
I would like, those who are interested in reading this,
http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=3330962
Since we are thinking what a woman's perspective can be.
Arshics thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#32

Originally posted by: mnx12

I would like, those who are interested in reading this,
http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=3330962
Since we are thinking what a woman's perspective can be.


Minu, good story, very interesting, but once again, my mind questions

In a world where women are truly respected, will just being seen in the same room with a man willify her character thus?

was she really protected? Alone, turned to stone, shapit. Was it a life worth living? Did she deserve it?

Isn't it worse that even when her husband trusted her, he felt compelled to curse because of the society? Where a woman who is even suspected of cheating must be punished, even though there's no shred of evidence?

Indra had treachery on his mind, but not Ahilya - she was a victim, why did she have to pay a heavier price than Indra?

Does it not give us a peep into the extreme social order of that time where women had no rights, no respect?

Sorry posting here but that thread is closed!
Mano.M thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#33

Originally posted by: Arshics


Minu, good story, very interesting, but once again, my mind questions

In a world where women are truly respected, will just being seen in the same room with a man willify her character thus?

was she really protected? Alone, turned to stone, shapit. Was it a life worth living? Did she deserve it?

Isn't it worse that even when her husband trusted her, he felt compelled to curse because of the society? Where a woman who is even suspected of cheating must be punished, even though there's no shred of evidence?

Indra had treachery on his mind, but not Ahilya - she was a victim, why did she have to pay a heavier price than Indra?

Does it not give us a peep into the extreme social order of that time where women had no rights, no respect?

Sorry posting here but that thread is closed!


Like u said it was an interesting read
I had all this questions in my mind that u raised now

So just for clearing her name
She deserves to be a stone??
iDea-yeS-viruS thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#34

@Arshics

See, I never objected about questioning Ramayana. But I'm questioning whether it purely based Valmiki Ramayana or not. I never against debate but here most of discussions about Ramayana based on later versions not on Valmiki's one.

I do respect Rama a lot, and have imbibed a lot of his values, but I also do not look at Ramayana as the absolute truth and above questioning.

Exactly my qquestion. I believe existing Valmiki Ramayana as truth and yes, I can't prove it was never altered. You believe that Ramayana is no more absolute truth. I'm not against your point. But I'm asking how can you decide which section is truth and which is alteration.you would've simply blame Ramayana as male chauvinism work. I wouldn't get upset, if anyone labeled Ramayana as male chauvinism work, arya-dravida war executions, mere long novel.
in fact I'm never against atheists. But what upsetting me is picking entire Ramayana and pointing few sections as altered one.

About hunting, it's about Kshatriya and Raja Dharma. Why sshould anyone learn martial arts for defense. If gurus didn't teach Martial arts,then there wouldn't havebeen offense nah?OK. Leave that. In our country, people only elects Leaders. Then why should leaders take care about forests and forest animals? Because a leader has responsibilities for all the lives under his ruling. Up to my knowledge, Apart from King and hunter, none appreciated in epics for their hunting skills. Hunter hunts for his survival. About King, Hunting wasn't kings passion. it executed at proper cycles.
It's a kind of psychological eexecution to show animals, you're also my responsibility. Similarly, hunting will make a King to see forest in Animal POV. Again,don't ask me will King do all crimes for respective povs. As a leader he has responsibilities for social, economical, cultural, art and etc if you believe Hunting is King's hobby to kill nature's creations, again I can't prove Hunting is a psychological aspect of kings Responsibility. We both are on our own povs.


About Agni Pariksha, in Valmiki Ramayana there is no agni Pariksha. So no comments.

About Panchali, iI'm also heard she has boon to become virgin again. But you see, marital life complete with two submissions 1. Body 2. Mind.
But mind is the important factor decides chastity. Lately body become important factor. It's pity one.

Ok. draupadi had boon but which boon Ahalya had. She also respected in Pancha Kanyas.
See I mentioned Five husbands there not to insult Draupadi. But I'm questioning why polygamous marriage of Dasarath only questioned.

See.I do know many overwritten stories. Especially I felt disgusting about a story praised "Narayana mantra by A hard core sinner".I do keep ignoring many shaivates,Vaishnava's,Sakthi Devi's stories. Because I felt those stories made to satisfy particular groups. But I never felt those in Ramayana and Mahabharata(especially Ramayana). That's why I'm debating.

As said before, if I felt any ithihas was overdone, I will simply ignore that than picking my ffavorites.

You're right that we don't have to be follow same opinions. But I'm saying we don't have be atheist to show our discomfort on particular sacred texts, theism is about belief and trust, if we don't believe few things, then what is the point to convince and compromise our trust.

@Ramya
Again and Again interpretations,it makes me to feel Valmiki was there all the time when Ram born, When Sita abducted , when Sita sent for forest etc... It seems Valmiki would have beenthinking about what would be Sita feelings rather than helping Sita to stop Raavan Manhandling.
I mean perspective and Interpretation will make sense when someone witnessed something

But here Valmiki wrote what happened, what characters told and what were their feelings. Here what is the point to talk about perspective. OK ,Valmiki may have been male chauvinism so he may wrote like characters feelings as he felt. But What about SKR CVS, do they writing dialogues after interviewing respective characters.
Again back to my old point, let them to feel who wanted to believe Valmiki Ramayana as Mere novel about male chauvinism and let them to feel SKR as female chauvinism version of mere novel. Let me to feel Ramayana is story not truth. But one thing I'm asking, can't we make debate only about respective stories than put all under a roof called "Ramayana".
iDea-yeS-viruS thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#35
sorry. I forgot to add this in previous post.in Valmiki Ramayana, Dhasarath didn't try to kill a deer, it's an Allusion about elephant.
Edited by iDea-yeS-viruS - 9 years ago
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#36
@Arshics,
For me Ramayan is both history and a highly revered religious text, just like the Mahabharat and Bhagavatham. I am not saying our religious texts should not be questioned, but I also feel there is a general guideline to use when questioning them. Like, personally from my point of view, there's something not right about judging the characters from a modern mindset, keeping today's beliefs and ideals in mind, because I don't feel our modern society today is perfect. It's not a great standard to judge ancient people by, because we are not devoid of crimes. Women today are still in danger everyday, in ways even worse than the ancient era. So when questioning certain actions, we should also think in the POV of those times before labeling them as right or wrong. That's just strictly my opinion.

Also, there are certain actions we do not have to question, because they are already labeled as wrong in the epic. Incidents like Dashrath shooting an arrow at Shravan Kumar thinking he was an elephant was already considered a grave crime even then, and he was cursed for it, a curse that brought about his death in the loneliest of manners. As for such things like hunting deer and other animals, it was a very common and acceptable practice back then. Forget back then, it's common even now! Yes, there may be laws in some countries against it, but people still hunt animals, and even if they don't, don't people eat animals? Non-vegetarianism is still very much prevalent in society. In fact, the rate of it has increased, and personally I don't care who eats meat and who doesn't, but if those who eat meat find hunting wrong, no offense, but isn't that rather hypocritical? Maybe you don't hunt animals, but if you eat animals for your meal, then it's more or less the same thing. So hunting animals and eating them is not something that was common then, but is also common and acceptable now. So it's not something to hold against someone unless you blame all the non-vegetarians out there of the same crime.

Also, just some general information as per Valmiki Ramayan.

1) Ahalya knew it was Indra in the form of her husband Gautam rishi. Still she chose to have an affair with him due to lust and desire. And in VR, Ahalya was never turned to stone. She was cursed to "become one" with the dust of the Earth until Ram set foot in the ashram to free her from her curse. You can read the story here.
http://www.valmikiramayan.net/utf8/baala/sarga48/bala_48_frame.htm

So Ahalya was not totally blameless. It was later versions who wrote of her being blameless in the matter. Whether she was blameless or not, Ram still sets her free from her curse, thereby giving the message to society that a woman, fallen or not, is still worthy of respect.

2) Sita was never asked to give an Agni pariksha. She chose to enter fire on her own. I shall post an excerpt from Valmiki for the whole Ram-Sita samvaad if you wish.


As for Draupadi, in Vyasa's Mahabharata (which is the main version of the epic), it is written very clearly that she looked at each brother with desire and that she was not at all unwilling. Television serials and movies dramatize this even SO MUCH and make it seem like she was forced against her will to marry them, when that was not the case. Personally, I do not see what is wrong for Draupadi to desire all five men. If men back then could remarry, why not women? The idea may not have been hers, but Draupadi was not against the idea. It was her father who protested, but she willingly married them all.

As for Karna, I will not get into a discussion of him here, as I have sooo many things to say regarding his so-called tragic life. If you are interested in discussing him, we can do so through PMs. I would be more than happy to share my views on him. Let's just say the general belief of him being a tragic hero does not hold with me.


When it comes to questioning our epics, I believe the people who did wrong were already punished for it throughout the epic, in some way or other. So Ram's message for us was already very clear. He never told us to commit those wrong actions. Whether by liberating Ahalya or eating Shabari's fruits (though she was from a low caste), he taught people not to ostracize women for faults that are not all their own. Maybe Ahalya knew it was Indra, maybe she didn't, but the fact is that it wasn't just her fault, and her punishment was too harsh, and by liberating her Ram taught the world not to view women as unequal to men. In Shabari's case, Ram taught people that everyone is equal and there are no distinctions in caste and social class. He was equal to the wealthy and poor alone.

Also, Ram may not have condemned polygamy outright, but was he not Eka patnivrat? Did he not refuse to marry any woman who approached him? Did he not give Sita the place of being the sole woman in his life? Even after Sita was exiled, Ram never gave her position to someone else. He slept on floor, he gave up royal luxuries, and he lived like a celibate until he left the Earth.

So before questioning Ram, it's important to under his incarnation deeply. He was God, and God cannot make mistakes like a normal human. That's my belief, not forcing it on anyone. My basic point is that no immoral incident was preached as the "right" way. Draupadi's vastraharan was never justified in Mahabharat. In fact, Lord Krishna highly condemned it and criticized both the Pandavas and Kauravas for their share of the blame. Lord Krishna's rescue of Draupadi proves that God protects those devotees who surrender to him without any doubt or scorn in their hearts. Yes, our puranas are full of examples of immoral actions done by various characters, but they are punished and in the end, the Lord gives an example to human kind that he will be reborn whenever unrighteousness is prevalent in the world.

Yada yada hi dharmasya glanirbhavati bharata
Abhythanamadharmasya tadatmanam srijamyaham

Paritranaya sadhunang vinashay cha dushkritam
Dharmasangsthapanarthay sambhabami yuge yuge

The meaning of these two slokas is"[1]
Whenever there is decay of righteousness, O Bharata,
And there is exaltation of unrighteousness, then I Myself come forth ;


For the protection of the good, for the destruction of evil-doers,
For the sake of firmly establishing righteousness, I am born from age to age.

RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#37
I opened a thread and posted Ahalya's story for those who are interested.
http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4532185
iDea-yeS-viruS thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#38

Originally posted by: ..RamKiJanaki..

I opened a thread and posted Ahalya's story for those who are interested.

http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4532185

Akka. it's good idea. please make threads about "Ram Sita conversation at when Ram ordered to exile"," Sita-Hanuman Conservation "," Vali vadh","Raavan curse from Kuberas son",""Sita-Lakshman conversation at when she knew that she was abandoned by RAM "," Lakshman death "," Especially give detailed scenario from Raavan's death to Ram declaring Sita as his pride " if possible. because I think people have to know and understand much in these places.
Arshics thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#39
Very interesting points made by both of you!
One point I want to establish

To be non religious is not the same as being an atheist

An atheist does not believe in the existence of God, some one non religious does not believe in well religious practices and beliefs

For a non religous person, God is nirankar, nirgun, niroop and not in divinity of any human form.

Second, if Ramayana was history, then Rama was mortal And a human being, so not above questioning

If Ramayana was a scripture then it was not history, it was always meant to be a religious text, written to exemplify standards of morality, so not a reality!

The truth according to my studies is somewhere in between, Rama was a fair and just emperor, very humane, someone who was superhuman in his qualities

With time his story, becAme such an ideal to be inspired that he began to be worshipped

That's my perception!

Three, Rama exemplified goodness, but he was born to root out evil, which means that the society at that time was rooted in evil and needed a saviour!

True, even today we are grappling with the same evils, and same vices and that's why we turn to Ramayana for inspiration and answers.

mnx12 thumbnail
Posted: 9 years ago
#40
Arshicks, that forum is not so active. That's why I posted the link here. Will open that thread now.
This was another take on Ahilya's story. Just to explain, there may be many interpretations of the same story. Some may be liked, some may not. But there is something for everyone in our rich scriptures. It's upto us to accept or reject.

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