Modification in either beat, note or pitch can make a big difference. And if you take one component variable out and then consider - you will find many songs sounding 'similar'.
Just a small note! 😊
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When I say music, I mean the expression of ideas (in the form of a musical composition or a sound recording) Music is a creative process. Today, when a musician publishes music, only a privileged set of individuals are able to use the music as they please. However, the creativity of many other musicians and there is an existential responsibility placed upon them to produce originality and create not copying or ripping track from other's. Current practices are very unethical. which exploit the industry and that kind of practice will only do damage to classical culture and the society The greatest reward musicians should have is their own music and nothing else If the freedom of copying and using music appeals to you and you would like the idea spread around in my opinion that is as good as taking a test with open book in front of your teacher in the class.. Music is about creative and passionate ideas. If the music is good, it will spread far more rapidly, in an almost exponential fashion,
👏👏👏
There is no originality😕
Thank you Qwest ji for starting this interesting topic and thanks VJ for comparative list. 👏 👏 👏
I think creating a piece of music with some inspiration but still giving it a unique style is totally different than plagiarism.On the other hand lifting of compositions either complete or part of it , with out giving credit to original creator is a kind of crime.
Thank you Qwesta and Vijay bhai..
I Agree with Dawn 100%..
Being inspired by a score is diffrent from copying it completely. But we get to familiarise ourselves with tunes from different countries through our Hindi songs inspired from such sources.More often than not it is a 100% lift.
All it takes is a courtesy mention of the actual source. That's all.
Vijay,
I would like to personally thank you for doing justice to this thread. It takes lot of courage to say the truth and what is right. I am proud to be your virtual friend – a friend who stands by me on this thread. A wrong is always wrong no matter who it is that does the wrong and how hard they try to defend it. We cannot just give up and bend to that wrong.
Vijay as you said Indian music is one of the oldest unbroken musical traditions in the world. I personally feel very sad sometimes: originality and creativity is missing in Indian music these days. Music is about creative and passionate ideas and originality.
The key word original in "original sound track" is what defines an ethical music director.I do not think people should get uptight about the fact that most music directors "rip" music from original soundtracks. It's just the truth isn't it? How many threads do you read every day, involving Tunes, where these folks are PROUD saying that I copy music from east and west, and from the north and south. We still dignify them as musicians because we think they made a great economical choice by which they will greatly benefit. Although this choice only makes the consumers pay money for "tweaked" music. Sending a message like that to our current and future generation is wrong. The human mind has an unlimited ability to rationalize – whether it is for better or worse. And if it is for worse, it is a threat for any society or culture.
The only place a useful discussion can even occur is where people have gotten past this notion of "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". If people get comfortable with the content, they will never get any originality and quality from the content. We need to learn to change our self from wrong to right. A clear example of this is when people can deny themselves the work of those artists whose distribution they do not agree with (boycott). I honestly think the world would be better known as pirated rather then using the word ripping? Is it really that bad? We should not comprise. The Indian music industry needs to undertake several strategic shifts going forward in order to retain its lost glory.
Anol Da,Originally posted by: soulsoup
Vijay - great effort indeed - almost complete itwofs.com is now in our section 😆😆.
Qwestda - I'll post something here soon - on my POV. As I said in a previous comment in this thread only - I partially agree with the issue raised here.
Thanks for opening up the Pandora's box - expecting a great debate here!
A good discussion is always useful for all society and we all are taking about good music and not asking for any royalty from any music director.
Originally posted by: qwertyasdfgh
Why do we call something a copy. Now you telling Ramesh sippy actually watched that samurai picture with english subtitles to get the idea of sholay!!! Thats far fetched.. We dont wait to belittle our indian brethen.. and jump to hte occasion.. how many would say that Ghost was a copy of "Jhuk gaya aasman" or there was another hollywood which looked like the old hindi Do kaliyan... I mean we do copy but thats cos audience fancy that kind of thing..
Copy is a veri veri inexplicable term.. most of the humans grow up copying their parents does that mean copying is a part of their nature... this question has been dangling bet' psychology and moral ethics for quite a while...A unconscionable way of copying which is common with Anu mallik, bappi lahiri is bad but RDB took inspiration and try to blend the western songs in his own way.. theres a difference bet' copy and inspiration.. though the outcome will look more or less the same...
Originally posted by: charades
When westerners try to compare their tonal hierarchies to our Indian music in trying to establish that they are on par with Indian music even though one of the most significant differences between these two is that the primary means of expressing tonality in Indian music is through melody, whereas in Western music it is through harmony (the use of chords). Indian music is based on a standard set of melodic forms (raga), which are themselves built on a large set of scales (thats). The tones within a raga are organized in a hierarchy of importance. These tones are considered by Indian music theorists to be structurally significant, as they are immovable tones around which the scale system is constructed, and they are sounded continuously in the drone. This specific organizational structures around the tone show considerable diversity in our music. Due to this reason most of the Indian listener's are sensitive to the scales underlying the ragas.
So when so much of diversity in our own music where importance of scales underlying the ragas are of greater importance, why go after harmony without melody as Indian music fundamentally been a spiritual aid & the vehicle for the soul to realise & stress on melody, harmony being secondary though vital and is other way around is case of western music.
Enlightening the Listener, book and cassette by Prabha Atre. Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, New Delhi. Available through Amazon.com.
It's obvious that many Indian classical musi-cians are willing to blend their music with other styles. What is not so widely acknowledged is that classical music itself has changed over the centuries and continues to change today. The assumption is that classical music itself is an unbroken and unchanging tradition, even if classical musicians might occasionally want to combine that tradition with other elements. Prabha Atre, however, sees things differently, and there are good reasons for taking her views seriously.
She is one of the foremost female khyal vocalists representing the Kirana Gharana, having received the Padmashree and the Sangeet Natak Academy awards from the Indian government. She has been an assistant producer for All India Radio, and once ran a classical record label called Swarashree.
And perhaps most importantly, she is familiar with both the modern and traditional methods of training musicians. She was trained in the traditional gurukul system by the late Sureshbabu Mane and his famous sister, Padmabhushan Hirabai Badodekar. But she has also been Head of the Department of Music, SNDT Women's University, Mumbai, and taught at the University of California on a senior Fulbright fellowship.
In her recent book "Enlightening the Listener," Atre draws on this rich domain of experience to make some refreshingly original observations on the differences between traditional and modern systems of music and of music education. The first essay, which takes up about one third of the book, is an introduction to the fundamentals of Hindustani music, with an emphasis on vocal. This sort of thing has been done many times before, but Atre does it well, and even the most experienced listener will pick up something new and interesting from her analysis. Especially helpful are the sections on vocal ornaments which, thanks to the accompanying cassette, are much clearer than mere verbal descriptions could ever be. She also has created some charts that show relationships and differences between various styles of music. These are quite original and ingenious, and yet the connections and distinctions still seem undeniable once she points them out. The real meat of the book, however, are the numerous short essays which build on the information in the first essay, and give persuasive arguments why much of what passes for common wisdom in Indian music needs to be reconsidered.
One of her biggest concerns is the fact that the university system produces scholars and the gurukul system produces musicians. Having learned and taught in both worlds she can see the strengths and weaknesses of each. She boldly suggests that the reason the gurukul system requires years of work to produce great artists is that it is not very efficient. Because so little theory gets taught, it is difficult for the artists to expand what they know to new territory, or to overcome blocks and obstacles to their progress. The university system, on the other hand, often produces people who can pass tests and do research about music theory, but do not learn how to perform. She suggests a variety of specific solutions to these and other problems, based on her experience as a teacher: creating more performance opportunities in universities, and utilizing modern technology such as the tape recorder and the metronome to speed up the learning process.
Performance is a learning experience not only because it gives an opportunity to practice. A discriminating audience also teaches the performer by responding to her best moments with cries of encouragement, and those elements that inspire the audience naturally become more prominent in the repertoire of the performer. Atre even asserts that film music has had a positive influence on classical music, because it has forced khayal singers to work on beauty of tone in their singing, and not just focus on creativity in improvisation. She also has a very effective series of exercises for learning a melody, concentrating on each musical element separately, so that words, melody, sargam, and tabla bols are each absorbed through separate forms of practice.
Sargam, in particular, is her passion, for she wrote her doctoral dissertation on the subject. Although her dissertation became the basis for two award wining books which were first published in Marathi, then translated into Hindi, this book contains her only English writings on this or any other subject. And these English writings are clearly only the visible tip of a highly developed set of arguments and theories. Atre points out that no singer marks every single note he/she sings with a sargam syllable, especially during those long ornamented passages called murki. The choice of sargam syllables thus determines which notes the singer considers to be fundamental and which are mere ornaments. This shapes how the melody is heard in ways that cannot be duplicated by either an instrument or a poetic verse. The increasing importance of sargam is also an indication of the artist's constant need to free herself from the words, and to express the raga as a pure abstraction with it's own uniquely musical meaning. Atre sees this trend as essential for the development of Indian music.
This last claim may seem uncontroversial to Westerners, but it puts Atre in conflict with traditional Indian music theory. If ragas are purely abstract, then the system of rasas, which is designed to describe the emotional content of works of art, is not a universal set of transcendental principles, but only a set of social agreements and conventions. It also means that the idea that each raga should only be played at certain times is also only a social convention. Some may find this hard to accept, but Atre bites this particular bullet with enthusiasm, giving numerous arguments why these principles cannot be as universal as traditionally believed.
Her arguments undeniably have some merit, but personally I am inclined to lean more towards the traditional view. The idea that music is completely abstract was embraced by many 20th century Avant-garde composers in the West, and it often caused them to create music which was sterile, cerebral, and lifeless. Perhaps there is some middle ground between these two extremes. Couldn't we say that even though the rasas are based on traditions and conventions, that they are still a valid basis for creative expression?
After all, the meanings of words are based entirely on social conventions, and poets still manage to create art with them. Why couldn't musicians do the same? I don't know what Atre's reply would be to this suggestion, but I am sure it would be perceptive and thoughtful. Her openness to new ideas is beautifully expressed in this quote from her book: "In the sphere of art, no questions have final answers or need to be answered with finality. They are open ended. It is enough to examine them, ponder over them, in which process many a cobweb is brushed away."
Teed Rockwell has studied classical Indian music for fifteen years at the Ali Akbar College of Music and privately with Habib Khan and the Salamat Ali Khan family.
'Why can't we be original?' The man who started with the B-grade
I am very impressed "WHO IS TALKING" I remember a quote from a book my killer is my justice. Interesting article. Thanks Daisy.