analysis by disciple of Pt. Bhimsen Joshi - Page 6

Originally posted by: uselogic

Guys i thought of starting a new thread on this analysis... This is given by anuraag ( IF ID: bigmac)and he is a disciple of Pt.Bhimsen Joshi.. he has actually repsonded to one of my post but since t hat has become very old , i thought of copy and pasting it in a new thread.... lets see how does our other learned readers contribute to this......

Namaskar. As a trained hindustani classical musician (I learnt under Pandit Bhimsen Joshi and Chandrakant Apte) I would humbly say that the quality of training and voice of Hemachandra was 'orders of magnitude' superior to both Debojit and Vineet. Both Debo and Vineet have relatively untrained voices and lack proper control that a singer ought to possess. Debo and Vineet do sound good though I hasten to add but its very mediocre speaking relatively. To win the title of "Voice of India" there has to be more than that. There are a lot of second grade classical vocalists in India, who will be able to sing songs much better than most of these singers in Sa Re Ga Ma Pa. I think many don't venture into popular music (bollywood) for its lack of quality and content - times are quite different from those in the past when the concept of a 'Rafi, Kishore, Lata, or Manna Dey' singing 'Besura' could not have been imagined. Most bollywood singers nowadays (those who professionally sing) including Vineet and Debo do sing quite besura at times and their mentors keep edging them up. Brining in a Pandit Jasraj or Shiv-Hari quality of judge at the final three stage would have separated the chaff from the wheat. But it is what it is. Quality has really taken a nose dive in Indian cinema music. The prime differentiator between Indian music and western music by and large was "Sur". Now many of our singers sing Besura and with 90% singers both emerging and established, in the besura range, one cannot blame the public to have to select from among them.

The other thing that happens commonly nowadays is computerised scale and voice adjusting. As such most male singers tend to thin down their voices to sound melodious. Most recordings are done in lower scales (C and below) with the intent that the singers do not strain the voice in higher pitches, and then the lower-scale recorded track is digitally 'pitched-up' to a C-sharp or E scale with a mild echo-effect, so that the singers' voice and song sound amazing. Men should sing like men- in a good quality natural male voice such as Kishore, Rafi and Manna Dey. Awaz patli karne ki zaroorat nahi hai bhai.

Moreover, multiple voting is illegal in most developed economies as it defeats the purpose of an unbiased voting system in the first place. I am amused that multiple voting was allowed for this show!

Hans Chugega Dana, Kaua Moti Khayega. This is indeed true now.

In general music is about how it appeals to the ears and the feeling it evokes. If it awakens the spirit in whichever way, it has partly done its job. Some sing for others and some for oneself. Not to deviate from the subject but I think people think singing popular music is somehow different from having a classical base. Speaking vedically, a Rag is defined as:

"Yoyam Dhwani Visheshastu Swarvarna Vibhushitah
Ranjako Janchittanam Sa Ragah Kathito Budhai"

meaning:

" A certain order of notes that is adorned with swaras and the variations within those swaras
And that which pleases the hearts of the people, that is called a Rag".

Now strictly from this Vedic definition of a Rag, how is this different from hindi music. Music is music and no music is "halka" as such.

What we are forgetting is that almost all of our great playback singers from the past such as Kishore, Lata, Rafi, Manna Dey etc, had come from strict training in traditional classical music. That is why there music was so unbelievably melodious that the sounds made lasting impact for generations. We still sing many of their songs!

Hemachandra in general has a much better tonal quality from a musicians perspective.

Debo sings certain songs very well, but many of his renditions show a tendency towards Rabindra Sangeet or Nazrul geeti (both of I absolutely love but would I want to hear them fuse with popular hindi music, that's another thing). This can be good and bad depending on the type of song. He also has milder issues with pronunciation.

Vineet also sings very well. There is a lot of potential in him. He has a Rafi-esque voice, but I think in terms of "Sur", he will do good to sit down with a classical Guru and really get down to some voice toning and hardcore riyaz. I find his foundation quite shaky. A couple of well designed taans can easily expose his lack of control over voice. But again, thats not that important for "canned" performances since all that can be adequately compensated by other support factors.

These three singers in general sound very good to us because there is a lot of sound editing, top grade accompanying musicians (orchestra: one cannot underestimate what a top class accomanist can do to your performance), pitch-edging, digital mastering and other techniques that support their acts,, even when singing live and in one take.

For a trained musical ear, it is very easy to distinguish who has learnt the basics of music well and practised for years, and who has not. I think the fast track to success is the new way of the trade but what one doesn't realize is that most such musicians eventually are unable to sustain themselves in the long term. Either many return to first principles and focus on learning the classics, that eventually improves the quality of their singing and of their the songs, or else if they don't do so, they phase out.

In general Hema, Vineet and Debo should take vocal training music lessons and learn some good Rags from a classical based Guru. This will surely help them in their careers.

When good classical training meets Bollywood, you get once in a lifetime musical bursts such as Silsila (Shiv Hari) or a Zakir Hussain. Many of Silsila's songs for example were tuned and sang entirely in Rag Bhoopali. Some of our greatest songs even of modern times are well rooted in the rags. AR Rehman is perhaps the best example - he is a master of classical-modern musical alchemy and he did study western classical music in England. His formal training clearly shows.

I don't say this because I learnt classical music, since I am part of the young generation myself and my tastes vary from traditional classical, to western rock to jazz to Ghazals, bhajans and dance music. There are some fantastic singers in the west as well but they have all trained well.

There should be something extraordinarily unique and substantiating about he/she who gets the top spot in Sa re Ga Ma Pa or for that matter any national level musical contest. Take for example the All India Music Contest organized by AIR or by ITC's Sangeet Research Academy. The level of music of the participants is really good. They sound phenomenal and they are given extremely difficult songs to sing. Sa Re Ga Ma Pa used to have such singers but this year it seems to have moved away from that. Now the mentors hype up the contestants to the n-th degree and it becomes a game. It is a game after all, but with stakes that are very high. India is undoubdtedly the only country in the world where music is phenomenally advanced in form and style. Having studied formal western music as well as formal Indian classical music, I can say that in many ways western musical form is quite primitive compared to what we can do with our music and with our voices as Indians. However that class and quality that certainly exists in our singers in India, is not being reflected in the current 3 participants (or for that matter in the ones before). Yes they sound good and their quality varies from song to song, but there has to be more to it than just that. Imagine if they sang completely in Sur and accurately: the impact that same song will have on us sung by that very same singer, will be much more than it is now.

Not that it really matters but if one has to take the argument to its extreme for hypothesis sake then one can play a recording of the three contestants and put a simple chromatic meter in front of it. This is a small $20 device that musicians use to tune their instruments to a particular scale or pitch or learners use to see if they are singing in Sur or not. If the voice or instrument is out of note (besura), then the device moves into the red zone otherwise it stays in the Green zone. Try running this experiment on these three singers and you will see what I am talking about. Vinet and Debo hit the Red zone and stay there for long periods. Hema also hits red a lot but by and large he stays in Green. Now try running the same experiment on recordings of Lata, Rafi, Kishore, Manna Dey, Sonu Nigam, Kumar Sanu or some of the good known singers and you will see that the device pretty much stays in the Green zone i.e. indicating that they are singing in tune (Sur). Then there is no need to listen to the SRGMP mentors who may or may not be speaking the truth. Again this is just a hypothesis and music is not about using devices to adjudicate quality. As long as it evokes the feelings, it works.

Whether one likes it or not but quite honestly a fair play would have been to get a musical stalwart such as Pandit Jasraj or Shiv-Hari ji to adjudicate the final 5 contestants. Only they will be able to differentiate the contestants given that sometimes we feel one singer sings better and some episodes we find the other singing better (speaking impartially).

But it is what it is. I thoroughly enjoy the show for what it is and tend not to miss an episode if I can. I think they all sing very well. But on musical ability alone, can I say they are currently good enough for the top spot, that is perhaps a whole new can of worms and its not worth going into that now.

It is very hard to be impartial isn't it!

Anurag Harsh
www.AnuragHarsh.com

thanks for posting the insightful analysis

has anyone considerede the possibility that many of the leading playback singers of today might in fact be not that good after all. You have to realise Pandit jasraj is OLD now! Listen to him live or oehrwise when he was young. The same goes for Jagjit Singh in his early years - live or recorded. They used to slip but rarely. Lata ki to baat ho chhodiye. Woh to galti se bhi besura nahi gaati thi, and same goes for Asha Bhonsle. Bhaisaab unless you are really tired and fatigued, its rather difficult to go off note completely let along sing entire songs in slightly less shruti without realizing it. Aajkal sab chalta hai.

See the fact of the matter is one really doesnt have to be extraordinarily good to be a great playback singer nowadays. Thoda accha ho and is able to play the bollywood game (Lallo Chappo, play the finer politics, massage the right people etc), and you get the gigs.

Sab Champaklal hai Bhaisaab.

Jaisa ki pahle kaha tha:

Kah Gaye Kabir Ek Din Aisa Aayega
Hans Chugega Dana, Kaua Moti Khayega.

The other thing that many people dont realize is that at the time Kishore da was at the peak, there was a lot of influence of classical music in bollywood. The leading Music Directors of the time were immersed in classical undertones. Kishore da self trained himself in the classics by being in th ecompany of such great music directors. Even if he didnt take formal lessons on paper, one cannot preclude the fact that the company of such stalwarts ans Bimal Roy, Salil Chaudhury et al must not have affected him in any way.

We can't possibly say the same thing about the film music industry now that way can we.

wow what a analysis............ thanks anuraag ji for responding to PMs...

well..i dont want to potray a sad picture , but i cant ignore the reality....it is the listeners who decides what is the direction of music going to be..and no matter how much you shout and how much you protest....it is going in the HR way and guys be prepared for techno songs and not natural songs.... you will have dafli waalein where in jaya prada was dancing ont he tunes of dholak by rishi kapoort with her ghungroos on her legs and now we have half naked girls dancing to remix version of daafli wale with ghungroos on her THIGHS....

as i have already said " badan pe sitare " would be remebered as a song sung by Harry Anand , which was dubbed by somebody by the name RAFI DUDE.

all our good classical singers will then remain for classes and not maases. They will have some concerts , and all our rich socialites will attend those with huge entry fees so that u can keep the masses out..and on the other side our masses will dance to HR's copied and dhin chaak tunes....

one more thing to add...hindi film music is driven by the the genre of movies we have.right now the kind of movies we are having or going to havein future...doesnt required any good quality song...they will be more of music and more fast numbers unless u make big budget period film...

as a firm beleiver of eintsein "thoery of relativity ", beleive in years to come..the DEFINITION OF GOOD IS GOING TO CHANGE".... and there will be a time, if u r voice breaks at higher notes will actually become so fashionable that people will purposedly do that...sounding funny..lets hope that it remains funny...

guys if u think practically then music is definitely going the hr way
most of the music buyers are the teenagers and if u want ur music to be a hit then u need to satisfy the youngsters
people of this age group normally have no interest in classical music or music of the laxmikant pyarelal genre
they prefer kind of music hr makes and hence hr is currently ruling the roost

Originally posted by: bigmac

I had already mentioned earlier that irrespective of any Red or Green LEDs on a Chromatic meter indicative of a performers adherence to Sur, the fact remains that music is mainly about how it makes you feel. It is the spirit of it that counts. He/She who is well trained, does immense sadhna, and feels the spirit of his/her music, is better able to communicate that spirit in many ways than one who is untrained. Different styles of music evoke different emotions in people. In general it has been found that the music that sounds the sweetest is that which the singer enjoys singing and listening to even more than the audience does! Its an introspective appreciation. And it is at the intersection of these two players V the performer and the listener that Good Music resides. Whenever Ustad Amjad Ali Khan (Sarod Maestro) gave a concert with his two sons Aman and Ayan Ali Bangash, I remember them saying that despite what the people said to them, they knew themselves what they had played, where they had gone wrong, and how much they needed to improve. If you dont believe me, feel free to download an MP3 of their interview that I had done with them at the BBC World Service (in Hindi) where they said this: http://www.sloanpartners.com/anuragharsh/personal/music/bbc/ bbc.html and then click on the Interview with Aman and Ayaan)

Pt. Hari Prasad Chaurasia and Ud. Bismillah Khan have said time and time again that there knowledge is but merely a cup of water in the ocean of music. It is that sadhna and dedication that gets them to a point where Lord Krishna himself descends to listen to Hari jis Bansuri V or better still goes and resides inside the bamboo flute. That is when music hits you like nothing else does. And in many ways that is how some of the good singers music affects us (playback or classical).

As regards the current singers on SRGMP, my opinion (this is only personal) is that they are rather mediocre from a musicality perspective. Everything is relative of course, so I speak when comparing them with some other singers (we have all met some next door neighbor who is sings phenomenal but was never discovered). They are good performers though and much of that has to do with the world class support system thats backing them in terms of orchestra, digital technology (this can do wonders to your voice), top class sound recording, costumes etc.

On its own merit, Hemachandra has by far the best voice quality and musical capability of the participants in SRGMP 2006, and often than not he did sing in Sur (although I must admit that towards the end he had started to falter as well). His control on voice was much better than all the others. I think he was trained well by his mother and I can feel the training in his voice. However, I also think that trying to balance the dance and singing and showmanship in one take, proved slightly overwhelming for him, and in the process his singing took a bit of a hit towards the last couple programs before his eviction. Very sad, since he could have just as well sang by standing at one place or with slightly less body movements, and been able to concentrate on the actual sound of his singing.

Vineet has the Rafi-esqe voice and imitates that Rafi style of melodic singing. His voice is still very young so it would need to mature V something that might happen with the years, and with arduous practice. But my opinion is that by and large he sings almost entire songs slightly off-shruti which for trained listeners like me can get quite traumatic since a little adjustment to his shrutis could make his songs go much further. Then there is the separate issue of the ease and accuracy with which Murkis and Meends i.e. the twists and falls in the song are done. These can only come with training and practice and in some songs that are difficult, Vineet tends to falter a lot, albeit unnoticeable to the common listener, but certainly noticeable to a musician or educated audience. People think this does not make a difference. It does make a difference. If he corrects these things, his songs would sound much better. But it is easier said than done. Correction of these things will probably do a number on most singers. It is hard work and a lot of effort goes into it.

Debojit used to sing very well initially and he is not bad even now. He sings the slower deeper songs well since he has the Rabindra Sangeet melodic undertones in him with a base-plus-nasal tone that can add metal to the songs. However, the problem I see with him is that whenever he starts doing anything slightly complicated or faster tempo, his control goes out of the window and his Sur falters a lot. I know he can get it right because I can see it in him. But its just that he doesnt do it because either he doesnt notice it himself or else he is not told to specifically control his voice when he goes fast or do anything complicated. He would also need to work on his pronunciation. I grew up in Jamshedpur (200 Kms from Kolkata) among Bengalis, so know what I am talking about ƒ. Hes got to do away with the undertones of Rabindra Sangeet (I love Rabindra Sangeet and Nazrul Geeti but to fuse that style into popular music, thats another thing).

Himani was perhaps the slightly better of the two girls (Nihira and Himani). At times each of them sang certain songs better than the other, but on the whole Himani had a more natural and Surila rendition. Her voice also had a little more pain in it. She too was overwhelmed by all the dance-drama that she had to do on stage V I dont think these contestants realize that all that action on stage has a significant affect on their songs! It takes a lot of training to do both and most leading singers who hop around a lot on stage will at some point go Besura V and its that one point that kills the song (sort of like Ek Balti Doodh Mein Ek Makkhi (housefly) ka Gir Jana.

Nihira was also good, but again she had issues with Sur basically. Anything more complicated and the Sur went in and out on multiple occasions. This can be corrected with practice and training, however we are assuming that the top spot in SRGMP was for he/she who faltered the least. I did like her singing and voice though.

Paresh from UK, and the gentleman from Chamba were really bad musically, so I will refrain from commenting on them.

On the whole, I would have ranked them as follows:

1. Hemachandra
2. Himani
3. Nihira
4. Vineet
5. Debojit

-Anurag Harsh
Listen to Music on www.AnuragHarsh.com

Great Analysis again. Couldnt agree more with your ranking of the top 5 singers. Hemu certainly was better than the rest, while Himani and Nihira were almost on par despite their different voice qualities. Vineet and Debu , strictly in that order, have some way to go before they can catch up. Unfortunately, audience voting has turned the tables completely, and now we have to choose between the worst of the top 5. And while we'r at it, I am also sure that Debu is going to win it, as evidence of the audiences' ignorance of music.

Originally posted by: cutegirl10

guys if u think practically then music is definitely going the hr way
most of the music buyers are the teenagers and if u want ur music to be a hit then u need to satisfy the youngsters
people of this age group normally have no interest in classical music or music of the laxmikant pyarelal genre
they prefer kind of music hr makes and hence hr is currently ruling the roost

Actually I do agree with cutegirl10 ji...
Even HR has said that the people who buy music the most belong to <25 age group and thats who my music is directed towards.
Popular music does not mean the best music though. But again, all this is so subjective to bias and personal opinions...

Originally posted by: dumbdude

Anurag,

Pls stop promoting your website. All your analysis sounds empty if you mix it with your own promotion. 😛 😛 I don't understand what would you gain by doing this?

Great nick... 👏

Sorry Anuraag ji

Dont you think you are promoting your website also.
Your comparison on Nihira Vs Himani reeks of bias.
There are other members as well who are sangeet visharad & fully trained in Carnatic classical, their opinion is diff from you on Nihira.

I completely disagree with you on following:

Himani was perhaps the slightly better of the two girls (Nihira and Himani). At times each of them sang certain songs better than the other, but on the whole Himani had a more natural and Surila rendition. Her voice also had a little more pain in it. She too was overwhelmed by all the dance-drama that she had to do on stage V I dont think these contestants realize that all that action on stage has a significant affect on their songs! It takes a lot of training to do both and most leading singers who hop around a lot on stage will at some point go Besura V and its that one point that kills the song (sort of like Ek Balti Doodh Mein Ek Makkhi (housefly) ka Gir Jana.

Nihira was also good, but again she had issues with Sur basically. Anything more complicated and the Sur went in and out on multiple occasions. This can be corrected with practice and training, however we are assuming that the top spot in SRGMP was for he/she who faltered the least. I did like her singing and voice though.


Also it is interesting to note that you are avoiding Sharib, whom I rated as much as Hema.
I agree Hema was the best but again putting Vinit higher than Debo & not mentioning Sharib beats me. Will you please explain: you mention about diction problem of Debo, is Hema;s diction flawless.......??