How much of a Rakshasa was Ravana? - Page 2

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Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
#11

Originally posted by: Kal El

Yes but his heritage is really interesting and it's surprising how little of a genetic connection he had to the Rakshasas.

If we go further and do the math for Indrajeet this is what we get. Ravana married Mandodari, daughter of Maya Danava and Apsara Hema.

Now, Mandodari = 50% Danava + 50% Apsara.

I will count the apsara genetics as I have counted the rest.
Therefore, Indrajeet = 1.5625% Rakshasa + 4.6875% Deva + 18.75% Gandharva + 25% Brahmana + 25% Danava + 25% Apsara.

Fantastic genetic khichdi. 😆


Kal

Can Indrajit's Danav and Rakshash components be added up, or would they have to be weighted? I mean, Danavas were monsters, right, and differed from rakshashas and asuras only geneologically. So Indrajit would then be quite a decent villain.

Then again, on the flip side, if you add up his Brahman, Gandharva and Deva components, that sums up to 48.4375%. I'm treating his 'apsara' persona as neutral 😆😆😆
gattu800 thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
#12
ohhh god Kal el ji very interesting
ur maths is too gud
thanxxxx 4 the information...
chatterbox thumbnail
Posted: 16 years ago
#13

Originally posted by: _LalithaJanaki_

You seem to have enjoyed this info Chatter Di!😆 Your darling Indrajeet is not much of a Rakshas after all.😉😆 He is even more of a good guy than we thought.😊😆

😆
he never was a evil rakshas but he was that much danav or apsara or gandharav or whatever
ya my darling indrajeet was a good guy see he realised it in the end isnt it
oh man this indrajeet just gave mukti to original indrajeet who wherever he is wud be happy that his image is not tarnished
😆
chatterbox thumbnail
Posted: 16 years ago
#14

Originally posted by: Chandraketu


Kal

Can Indrajit's Danav and Rakshash components be added up, or would they have to be weighted? I mean, Danavas were monsters, right, and differed from rakshashas and asuras only geneologically. So Indrajit would then be quite a decent villain.

Then again, on the flip side, if you add up his Brahman, Gandharva and Deva components, that sums up to 48.4375%. I'm treating his 'apsara' persona as neutral 😆😆😆

danav yes coz he was mayavi didnt see him change his shapes and whatever
and u wont belive the cartoon version i see i find indrajeet quite a handsome guy just like our indrajeet
and no my image is not shattered of him but i rememebr one thing u told ages ago
why shud indrajeet and kk uncles putlas be burned during dussera
they were not evil they did all for ravan
isnt it
i wud say here indrajeet got moksh due to praphulla
hahaa
but i enjoyed this genetic khichdi😆
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
#15
[quote="Kal El"]
The Rakshasa story begins with the Rakshasas Heti and Praheti.

Heti, Praheti = 100% Rakshasa.

Heti marries Bhaya, sister of Yama/Kaal. They have a son, Vidyutkesa.

Vidyutkesa = 50% Rakshasa + 50% Deva

Vidyutkesa was married to Salakatankata, daughter of Surya and Sandhya. They have a son, Sukesa.
[/quote]
Kal

Re-reading this, it does not seem right.

I recall reading that Surya and Sanjna had 2 sons and a daughter - Manu, Yama and Yamuna. After that was the incident that Sanjna could not put up w/ Surya's glare any longer, and fled. Also, I never read about Yamuna marrying anybody. Did Surya and Sanjna have any more children after he got her back?

Also, if Yama was Surya's son and his sister married Heti, then it's inconceivable that her son Vidyutkesa could have married his aunt Salakatankata. The only way that is possible is if Yama and Surya were no way related to each other.

Should have caught this the first time.

Edited by Chandraketu - 16 years ago
Kal El thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
#16

Originally posted by: Vrisha



Kal

So Ravan was more of a deva, a brahman and other things than a rakshasha. He should have campaigned for Indra's position, not just throne, or alternately, the Gandharva throne and then forced Rama to wipe out him and the devas/gandharvas (something Bharat did anyway) 😆, and leave the innocent rakshashas intact. [/quote]

Haha now that would have been funny. 😆

Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
#17

Originally posted by: Kal El

Well Prahlad's father, Hiranyakashipu, was a daitya. But the identity of his mother varies among the texts. For example, the Padma Purana says that his mother was Kalyana, daughter of Uttanapad who was the son of Svyambhuva Manu and Shatrupa which makes her human. On the other hand, the Bhagavata Purana says that she was Kayadhu, daughter of Jambha who was a danava thus making Prahlad's mother a danavi. Info on Prahlad's own wife is a bit vague but I think she was human. His son, Veerochana, married a danava princess.

So, if Prahlad's mother was Kalyani then:

Prahlad = 50% Daitya + 50% Manava
Veerochana = 25% Daitya + 75% Manava
Bali = 12.5% Daitya + 37.5% Manava + 50% Danava

But if Prahlad's mother was Kayadhu then:

Prahlad = 50% Daitya + 50% Danava
Veerochana = 25% Daitya + 25% Danava + 50% Manava
Bali = 12.5% Daitya + 25% Manava + 62.5% Danava


For Ghatothkacha, we really don't have much information about his mother Hidimbi and her brother Hidimba other than the fact that they were forest-dwelling rakshasas. At least not that I can recall right now. I guess we just have to assume that they were pure rakshasas or at least, that their non-rakshasa genetics were negligible. Some people try to link them to the Kiratas but let's not go into that speculative mess plus the term 'rakshasa' was often used to loosely refer to demons in the texts without regard to the genetics. I think we should make our lives easier and assume they were pure rakshasas. 😆

Based on the above assumption, Ghatothkacha would have been 50% Rakshasa. His paternal heritage is more interesting. Bheema's father was a deva (Vayu). Now Kunti was of the Yadavas and we know their origins can be traced back to the devas (Chandra/Budha). The Mahabharata also states that Kunti's father's maternal grandfather was the Naga Aryaka. This means Kunti was 12.5% Naga (the rest being mostly human; let's assume the deva components were negligible by Kunti's generation).

This means:

Bheema = 6.25% Naga + 43.75% Manava + 50% Deva (approx)

Ghatothkacha = 3.125% Naga + 21.875% Manava + 25% Deva + 50% Rakshasa (approx)

Strange huh? 😆


Thanks. You illustrated my point - Prahlad was at least 50% rakshasha/daitya, Bali was 62.5-75% (I'm combining danava and daitya) and Ghatotkacha was 50% rakshasha. Certainly more genuine rakshashas than Ravan, who was a fraud when it came to claiming Rakshasha heritage
🤣

Originally posted by: Kal El

You may have overlooked one very important thing I mentioned in the first post: my calculations were based on Valmiki's Uttarakanda and nothing else. I took this approach to keep things simple and preserve my sanity. Why? Because these details vary greatly among the texts and it would be insanely difficult to track everything down and even then they wouldn't all match up anyway.

Surya is linked with a lot of these elemental deities with the exact details varying from text to text. You are correct about Saranyu fleeing but most stories about her continue beyond that point. She left Chaya in her place and Surya had two sons from her, Shani Dev and Savarni Manu and, depending upon the text, daughters Tapati and Vishti. Surya discovered the truth (usually because Chaya cursed Yama one day, which was uncharacteristic of a mother) and found out from Vishwakarma (Saranyu's father) that Saranya was hiding (or doing tapasya) in the forest of Uttar Kuru in the form of a mare. Vishwakarma sliced off some of Surya's energy to make Sudarshana Chakra. Shiva's trishul, etc (exact details vary). Surya then transformed into a stallion and went to Saranyu. He won her over and united with her in that form, producing either 2 or 3 sons: the Ashvinis and Raivata. Raivata's origin has other variations: sometimes he is the son of Ragyi, another wife of Surya. Sometimes Surya also has another wife, Prabha, by whom he fathered Prabhat.

Kala (time) is sometimes identified with Yama and sometime they are separate deities. In texts where Bhaya is a sister of Yama, she is distinct from Yami.

As for Vidyutkesa marrying his aunt, it is not like aunt-nephew marriages are taboo everywhere in the subcontinent. In any case, it is best not to apply these social workings on to legends of the origins of elemental deities and such. That's a headache I prefer to avoid. 😆

Anyway, the text of the Uttarakanda simply says that Salakatankata was the daugher of Sandhya and she is usually taken to be Surya's wife (thought there are variations as usual). Whatever the case maybe, she is a devi and that is the important factor for the genetic khichdi. 😉

I forgot to mention that the Uttarakanda also says that Vishrava's mother was the daughter of Rajarishi Trnabindu.


To give you an idea of how much things tend to vary, compare the lineage of Ravana in Valmiki's Ramayan (Rm) with the version in the Mahabharata (MBh): according to the Vana Parva, Pulastya fathered a son, Vaisravana (Kuber), on a cow! Unlike the Rm where Kuber was born as Pulastya's grandson via normal reproduction, here he is Pulastya's son born of a cow.

Further, the Mbh says that Vaisravan left his father and went to Brahma. This angered Pulastya and he created Vishrava from half of himself, to teach Vaisravana a lesson. Meanwhile Brahma had granted Vaisravana boons of immortality, wealth, position of a lokpala, the favour of Shiva, a son named Nalakubera, lordship over yakshas and rakshasas and the city of Lanka, guarded by rakshasas. Kuber now learned that Vishrava (whom he regarded as his father since he was created out of half of Pulastya) was angry at him because he had left Pulastya for Brahma. To pacify Vishrava, Kuber sent him three rakshasi maidens called Puspotkata, Raka and Malini who were also expert in singing and dancing. Eventually Vishrava was pleased by them and fathered children with them. Puspotkata had Kumbhakarna and Ravana, Malini had Vibhishana and Raka had Khara and Surpanakha.

Not only are Sumali and Kaikesi out of the picture, but this version makes Ravana 50% Rakshasa while from his father's side he had human and I suppose some bovine genes as well. 😆

Another example is the boon that Ravana gets from Brahma. There is a small but significant difference. In the Ramayana, Ravana asks for protection from a host of beings but leaves out humans and animals out of arrogance. In other words, he is responsible for the loophole in his boon. According to the Mahabharata however, it goes like this*:

"Grant that I never suffer defeat,"
said Ravana,
"at the hands of gandharvas, gods,
Kinnaras, anti-gods,
Yakshas, rakshasas, nagas, and all
other creatures
."


He doesn't mention "humans" directly but nevertheless, that last bit meant that all creatures were included in his request. It is Brahma who leaves out humans from the boon, thus creating the loophole. Ravana didn't mind because he didn't consider humans important.

You can see just how much the texts vary. This is why I kept to a single source. I like my sanity. 😆

*From P. Lal's transcreation


Okay, thanks. That makes a lot of sense. I didn't know that that was how the sudarshan chakra, among other things, was created.

Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
#18
Just to emphasize my above point, more genuine rakshashas, like Prahlad, Bali and Ghatotkacha were virtuous souls, (even though the last one unfortunately had to be sacrificed to save Arjun). By contrast, Ravan, who was less than 2% Rakshasha, was a villain.

Somewhere, Vishnu seems to have screwed up while picking the Devas to support 😆 (Okay, okay, I know that the theory falls flat w/ the Hiranya brothers)

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