DOTW: Stories from Uttarkhand - Page 3

Originally posted by: Mandodari

I am off today and I have some time to post this.

All that I am writing is from the Gita Press translation of the Srimad Valmiki Ramayan.

After Lakshman drops off Sita and returns to the chariot he is very sad. Then Sumantra (the minister and not the mata) tells this story. According to Sumantra Dashrathji knew that these sad episodes will happen in Ramji's life. One day Dashrathji goes to Vashista's ashram to meet him. There he sees Durvasa muni. Dashrathji asks Durvasa muni about his sons and their bhavishya. Durvasa muni then tells this story.

When the Daityas are vanquished by the devas they seek shelter at Sage Bhrgu's ashram. Sage Bhrgu gives them shelter. Vishnuji is angered and severes Bhrgu's spouse's head with his discus. Bhrgu gets angry with this and curses Vishnuji and says that he will be born as a man and live apart from his wife for many years. Since Vishnuji needs to take an avatar to kill Ravan, he accepts the curse and transforms the curse to separation after the coronation.

So, according to Sumantra, Dhashrathji knew that Ram was Vishnu's incarnation and that he will live apart from his wife after the coronation. Dashrathji keeps it a secret and takes the secret with him when he dies. Sumantra also knows about this because he goes to Vasishta's ashrama on that day with Dashrathji. Now, he tells Lakshman that and Lakshman now knows the secret of Ramji's birth, that is he is an avatar of Vishnu.

Mandodari

Thanks for starting this thread & posting these accounts.

I too have read the above, but this is one of the few things in Valmiki that I have a tough time believing. If Lakshman were ever told that Rama would ask Sita to take an oath that she was chaste, and lose her as a result, his duty would have been to warn Rama of that. It would have been akin to Vibhishan advising Ravan not to abduct/to restore Sita. Had Lakshman known this, and then not warned Rama, I don't see how he'd not have been guilty of trechery towards his brother.

For similar reasons, I have a tough time believing that after Sita's passing, Kush & Luv were asked to sing the remainder of the Ramayan. For one thing, those kids must have been traumatized. For Brahma to tell Rama that he'd be comforted if he heard the balance of the story sounds too insane for words. According to the story, the yagna continued and was completed with difficulty. Therefore, this is the other thing I find almost impossible to believe.

Not to disrespect Maharshi Valmiki, but I can believe Ahalya being turned back from a stone to herself, but the above 2 incidents don't pass the sniff test.

Originally posted by: Mandodari

This is where there is a disconnect. Satrughna knows about Rama's sons but he does not inform Rama or send any news to Ramji about his sons' birth through servants. I did not understand that. Also, on his way to Ayodhaya after 12 years, he stays at Valmiki's ashram. He does not enquire about his nephews and he is surprised at the accuracy of Ramji's story as it is sung by 2 little boys.

How come he does not connect the 2 little boys to Ramji's sons? Also, how come he does not meet Sitaji this time around? Didn't make sense to me.

After a week's stay in Ayodhya he goes back to Madhura because Ramji says that a kingdom should not be without a king for too long. So, Satrughna goes back reluctantly.

Mandodari

Did Shatrughan stop at Valmiki's on the return journey? Is it mentioned in any verse? Also, when you say he stayed in Ayodhya for a week, are you talking immediately after the conquest of Madhupura, or are you talking after the Ashwamedha? Couldn't have been the latter - Ashwamedha yagnas lasted about a year, so Shatrughan and all of Rama's guests would have had to be there that long. If it was the former, it was probably to go back, pick up Shrutakirti and return to Madhupura (renamed by him as Mathura) so that both of them could be crowned. Incidentally, I do hope they show both of them being crowned, unlike in the last serial where only he was.

I don't see a disconnect here. Since Valmiki too was one of the invitees, and was going there himself with Kush & Luv, the question of his hosting Shatrughan or anybody didn't arise. Only question here - how far was Valmiki's ashram from Naimisharanya? Ananya, Vibs, Chen2chic, anyone? I mean, Rama asks for Sita to be brought before him, and the very next day, she was produced?

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Mandodari

Thanks for starting this thread & posting these accounts.

I too have read the above, but this is one of the few things in Valmiki that I have a tough time believing. If Lakshman were ever told that Rama would ask Sita to take an oath that she was chaste, and lose her as a result, his duty would have been to warn Rama of that. It would have been akin to Vibhishan advising Ravan not to abduct/to restore Sita. Had Lakshman known this, and then not warned Rama, I don't see how he'd not have been guilty of trechery towards his brother.

For similar reasons, I have a tough time believing that after Sita's passing, Kush & Luv were asked to sing the remainder of the Ramayan. For one thing, those kids must have been traumatized. For Brahma to tell Rama that he'd be comforted if he heard the balance of the story sounds too insane for words. According to the story, the yagna continued and was completed with difficulty. Therefore, this is the other thing I find almost impossible to believe.

Not to disrespect Maharshi Valmiki, but I can believe Ahalya being turned back from a stone to herself, but the above 2 incidents don't pass the sniff test.

Originally posted by: Mandodari

Now, there is no mention of the horse, or people following the horse, or the 2 sons tying up the horse, or anything like that in this translation. Where does that version which is shown in all the movies and serials come in? Which version of Ramayan is it in?

Mandodari

That's correct - there is no account of the horse being captured in Valmiki. In fact, in Valmiki, there is nothing about the kids being taught warfare: they are only taught how to sing. They were 12 when this all happened, so it's perfectly possible that once they were united with Rama, Vaishitha was put in charge of teaching them warfare - Valmiki did not have knowledge of divyastras. I read this account in an appendix of a translated Tulsidas Ramayan, but realized only later that people at the time of Tulsidas didn't write appendices, so it might have been someone else. (Also, in many of the versions that have this battle, there is no account of Kush & Luv singing, which is one of the central pieces about where and how the Ramayan was first rendered musically.)

At any rate, not only do I not believe this story, I don't like it. In it, Kush and Luv battle warriors who had nothing to do with their mother being exiled, while not battling their father, who was the one who did it. Doesn't seem fair to me. One can argue that it was and is unthinkable for anyone to battle his father, but the way I look at it, it's even worse to punish someone not involved in a crime than to punish the actual culprit. If the story of their battle was supposed to be poetic justice against the way their mother was treated, I fail to see how it was meted out.

Also, since Shatrughan was a sovereign ruler, it would have been a violation of protocol for Rama to send him with the horse. In Valmiki, it was Lakshman who was sent with the horse, and that passed off without incident. In Bhavabhuti, which Vibs wrote about, it was Lakshman's son Chandraketu (whose name I took) who followed the horse.

Much as I love Kush & Luv, I hate the horse story. There is also an account of how the kids were told by Valmiki to just survive on the fruits that were distributed during the yagna, and not to accept 18000 gold coins from Lakshman when offered, asking what would they do with it when they live in the forest. He also told them to decline to answer when asked who their father was, and just say that Valmiki was their guru. At Naimasharanya, the 2 of them lived in a hut made of twigs & leaves, and the night after Sita's passing, Rama went with them to that hut and spent the night with them there. Next day, after singing the balance of the Ramayan, they were (presumably) united with the rest of the family.

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Mandodari

Did Shatrughan stop at Valmiki's on the return journey? Is it mentioned in any verse? Also, when you say he stayed in Ayodhya for a week, are you talking immediately after the conquest of Madhupura, or are you talking after the Ashwamedha? Couldn't have been the latter - Ashwamedha yagnas lasted about a year, so Shatrughan and all of Rama's guests would have had to be there that long. If it was the former, it was probably to go back, pick up Shrutakirti and return to Madhupura (renamed by him as Mathura) so that both of them could be crowned. Incidentally, I do hope they show both of them being crowned, unlike in the last serial where only he was.

I don't see a disconnect here. Since Valmiki too was one of the invitees, and was going there himself with Kush & Luv, the question of his hosting Shatrughan or anybody didn't arise. Only question here - how far was Valmiki's ashram from Naimisharanya? Ananya, Vibs, Chen2chic, anyone? I mean, Rama asks for Sita to be brought before him, and the very next day, she was produced?

Originally posted by: Mandodari

This is where there is a disconnect. Satrughna knows about Rama's sons but he does not inform Rama or send any news to Ramji about his sons' birth through servants. I did not understand that. Also, on his way to Ayodhaya after 12 years, he stays at Valmiki's ashram. He does not enquire about his nephews and he is surprised at the accuracy of Ramji's story as it is sung by 2 little boys.

How come he does not connect the 2 little boys to Ramji's sons? Also, how come he does not meet Sitaji this time around? Didn't make sense to me.

After a week's stay in Ayodhya he goes back to Madhura because Ramji says that a kingdom should not be without a king for too long. So, Satrughna goes back reluctantly.