Prostitution...should it be legalised?

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 15 years ago

#221

Originally posted by: PhoeniXof_Hades
^ Is it just me or is the link really not working?

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 15 years ago

#222

Originally posted by: souro
The article claimed that there is something called pimp culture and people/ music actually glorify pimps. Well, I don't know who glorifies pimps, neither have I ever heard any music glorifying them. 😕

There is. In urban slang pimping refers to making something cool or better. (See urban dictionary). People use slang like "I pimped out my phone", "My car/PC is totally pimped out". It can also refer to promoting something in a cool/extraordinary manner which can lead to really absurd statements like "The rotary club was totally pimping their womens welfare charity event".

Hip hop artistes are often guilty of referring to terms like pimping and glorifying it, pimping women, objectifying women etc. American hip hop is notorious for derogatory lyrics that glorify negative societal elements.

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souro

@souro

Alumni

+ 2

Posted: 15 years ago

#223

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

There is. In urban slang pimping refers to making something cool or better. (See urban dictionary). People use slang like "I pimped out my phone", "My car/PC is totally pimped out". It can also refer to promoting something in a cool/extraordinary manner which can lead to really absurd statements like "The rotary club was totally pimping their womens welfare charity event".

Hip hop artistes are often guilty of referring to terms like pimping and glorifying it, pimping women, objectifying women etc. American hip hop is notorious for derogatory lyrics that glorify negative societal elements.

Yeah I know that people use the term 'pimping' when they add gadgets or upgrade. But I don't think they mean any harm or try to actually glorify the job of pimps. Most probably they just pick it up in high school.

Edited by souro - 15 years ago

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 15 years ago

#224

Originally posted by: souro

Yeah I know that people use the term 'pimping' when they add gadgets or upgrade. But I don't think they mean any harm or try to actually glorify the job of pimps. Most probably they just pick it up in high school.

Usually its just that. Even hip hop songs, most artistes don't really condone abuse or intend to glorify pimps. A lot of times people use pimping without even knowing what a pimp is. Its just that there is a group of people who believe that such urban slang/music promotes a pimping culture.

People tend to draw a very thin line between entertainment/artistic expression and actual negatives. For example when Columbine happened, Rammstein/Marilyn Manson was accused of encouraging a culture of violence due to their lyrics and videos. Michael Moore refuted the 'culture of violence in entertainment' by showing kids who indulged in that form of entertainment who were very responsible and reasonable in real life. The actual problem is the 'culture of violence in society' where government and parents don't advocate gun responsibility. I'm sure there is a fallacious similar association with music/entertainment and actual abuse against women.

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 15 years ago

#225

Originally posted by: crazy_sunny

1. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution is a gift to pimps, traffickers and the sex industry.

Legalization encourages pimps and brothels to be responsible.
It gives prostitutes legal protection from abusive pimps and brothels.
Trafficking will always be a crime.

Originally posted by: crazy_sunny
2. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution and the sex industry promotes sex trafficking.

Economic disparity and promised land on the other side promote trafficking.
Sex tourists from countries where prostitution is illegal promote trafficking.
Laws that target prostitutes/brothels/pimps instead of traffickers promote trafficking

Originally posted by: crazy_sunny
3. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not control the sex industry. It expands it.

No one claimed to make the sex industry disappear or shrink. Control means checks and balances on health, safety and welfare through regulation which is non existent in an illegal industry.

Nothing can expand beyond the demand/supply gap.

Originally posted by: crazy_sunny
4. Legalization/decriminalzaton of prostitution increases clandestine, hidden, illegal and street prostitution.

Legalization was not intended to be a miracle fix.

Why don't prop criminalization studies and statistics comparing crime/condition of prostitute/welfare of prostitute/regulation of prostitution of legal countries vs non legal countries?

A comparison can show how much better legalization is than the alternative and comparison studies can be found in pro-legalization sites like Procon.

Originally posted by: crazy_sunny
5. Legalization of prostitution and decriminalization of the sex industry increases child prostitution.

Child prostitution is not caused by legal prostitution. Child prostitution is caused by people in economically disparate countries who are willing to sell children to payoff debts. In countries where prostitution is legal, authorities vest more money and law enforcement in curbing trafficking especially child trafficking. That is why we get the statistics of children employed/rescued from prostitution. In countries where prostitution is illegal - child prostitution stats are unavailable. Legalization also monitors brothels for child prostitution and they risk being shut down for violation. Illegal brothels have no incentives to have a child free environment.

Originally posted by: crazy_sunny
6. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not protect the women in prostitution.

Trafficked women or women in illegal brothels do not report violence or abuse lest they get arrested or deported. Many illegal brothels are underground and not easily studied or monitored.

Where prostitution is legal women can file cases if abused or violated. In fact in Netherlands and Germany legal prostitutes have provided law enforcement tips on trafficking and helped stop illicit rings. If a prostitute complains the cops do file the case and investigate per law. An abuse case is not thrown out or mocked because the plaintiff is a prostitute.

Women where prostitution is illegal dare not open their mouth or risk visibility.

Originally posted by: crazy_sunny
7. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases the demand for prostitution. It boosts the motivation of men to buy women for sex in a much wider and more permissible range of socially acceptable settings.

Just like people who have moral inhibitions against gambling, drinking or smoking will not indulge in it even if legal. People who have their strong moral beliefs or inhibitions will refrain from visiting prostitutes. The demand will never go beyond the average moral framework.

On the other side having a legal side means many men who used to frequent risky, abusive brothels will choose to go to safe reputed brothels.

Also legalization of prostitution does not oppose promoting moral behaviors or safety statutes. It can always come with government warning and tax income can be invested in minimizing demand.

Originally posted by: crazy_sunny
8. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not promote women's health.

Regular STD testing does protect people from curable STDs. Mandating condom usage does protect from STDs. Regulation can always be updated for changing medical needs.

What is better, knowing that a bouncer is there to protect you, knowing that an abusive client will be prohibiting from returning or never knowing what the client will do and having the fear of serving them over and over again.

Originally posted by: crazy_sunny
9. Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not enhance women's choice.

Survival is not always a rational choice. Its always a ditch effort to stay alive and manage trying circumstances. Legalization lets women who make difficult choices the assurance of rights and protection. Most importantly, legalization provides the right and choice to leave the trade - something illegal prostitutes almost never have.

Originally posted by: crazy_sunny
10. Women in systems of prostitution do not want the sex industry legalized or decriminalized.

There are several sex workers unions, non profit organizations, philanthropists & lawmakers working with prostitutes, ex-prostitutes who advocate for legalization.

Originally posted by: crazy_sunny
CONCLUSION

Legislators leap onto the legalization bandwagon because they think nothing else is successful. However, as Scotland Yard's Commissioner has stated: 'You've got to be careful about legalizing things just because you don't think what you are doing is successful.

Legalization is a risky and controversial alternative. However, legalization has merit and has the potential to make prostitution a safer and better industry. After centuries of illegal prostitution mandated by colonialists, very few countries are trying to address issues through legalization. Australia and Nevada have many issues. However, Netherlands and Germany have been very committed to keeping their anti-prostitution laws sensible, dynamic and keep refocusing on eliminating trafficking/abuse and promoting safety. Only when large scale failure is an utter failure like criminalization can we say that its a non solution.

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 15 years ago

#226

BI & Crazy Sunny,

I'm sure neither of you believe the ordinary prostitute to be immoral or evil. I don't think Gauri intended to claim that you look down on prostitutes. However, when one holds the stance 'prostitution is immoral'; it tends to be an all inclusive stance. It ingrains a mindset that everyone involved in prostitution is immoral, including the innocent victims dragged into the trade.

I am positive the two of you and many others here don't look down on prostitutes and are very committed to the well being of prostitutes. Your efforts, views and intent to protect women is indeed commendable. But think about the society in India and other conservative parts of the world, and how people view prostitutes. 'Prostitution is immoral' is a concept that has been deeply ingrained into society and is often manifested in cruel ways.

Being a prostitute is a taboo. People don't seem to care that they were sold or trafficked into the trade against their will. They don't stop to wonder if some economic hardship might have made a person make a poor life choice. The only thing society tends to see is that this particular person has had sex with countless people for money and now the whole very being of the person is sinful and tainted.

I've lived for years in India. Society holds sexual morals so tightly that even a victim of rape is considered sinful and tainted. It is far worse for a prostitute who has betrayed sexual morals again and again, day in and day out.

The pro-legalization side has not been against rehabilitation and economic support. We have not denied the fact that some people are dying to get a better job and find a place in society. But we are not letting this concern blind us to the fact of how society as a whole views prostitution.

Rehabilitated prostitutes are not easily accepted into society. The taboo of the past is always with them. Even when they get jobs they are jeered, taunted, ridiculed. They are unable to make friends like ordinary people. People avoid socializing with them or interacting with them. Despite a yearning desire to get married, have families of their own, raise children - a societal dream of many people - they can never have that.

How many people would actually accept a former prostitute as a daughter in law? How many people would really adopt a child prostitute? How many people would actually welcome with open arms a former prostitute into their neighborhood, into their workplaces? It would take a radical change in societal attitudes to truly rehabilitate prostitutes and give them their dreams. Due to ostracism, humiliation many rehabilitated prostitutes steep into chronic depression - some commit suicide. Many even revert back to the trade because even though physically abusive, psychologically it provides a safe haven. At the brothel amidst other prostitutes they fit in and have emotional support. Outside of that they are all alone, terrified and frightened with barely any support. In the brothel they get something they will never get outside of it "Love and acceptance by peers".

What does legalization do?

It provides exactly the steps that are needed to rehabilitate prostitutes into society as ordinary human beings.

1) Whether out of choice, desperation or being forced into slavery it provides a legal framework to give prostitutes basic legal and human rights like safety and good health.
2) It changes the moral framework from 'prostitution is immoral' to 'exploitation is immoral' and focuses on the people who exploit and abuse.

Basically it sends a message - we don't know why you are in the trade, we don't know what economic and social backgrounds you come from, we don't know what choices you had and why you made them. But when you are ready to leave the past behind and step up, we will try and support you in every way we can. It sends the message to stop treating prostitutes like nasty s**ts or something, but treat them like a human being.

Yes it does make prostitution more palatable and acceptable as a profession. But in return it also tries to teach society to treat people in the sex trade with more compassion and respect. It makes people more open to having former prostitutes move up and be in the contributing work force. It makes people more open to having former prostitutes in their family. It promotes a society where humans are treated as humans with rights and compassion - irrespective of bad choices - that were forced or out of pure choice.

Let me reiterate that it does not change the moral fabric of society, nor does it make prostitution glorious. I've stated several times that prostitution or sex for sale will never be desirable, morally/religiously acceptable and normative sexual ethics will always prevail in society. Legalization only creates a society of tolerance, compassion and mobility. Exactly the same principles we needed when we needed to emancipate untouchables, slaves, women out of their old roles into contributing members of regular society. Without legalization society will always focus on the "prostitution is immoral" ethic rigidly and never develop the tolerance and compassion to let prostitutes move outside and up - have jobs and families.

To give an example of how changed social perceptions can change lives, let me give the example of the po*n industry. Another industry which is still illegal in many industries and has been targeted for violence against women.

Jenna Jameson is a former po*n star. She quit po*nography when her twins were born and is very committed to raising a healthy family and does not want her kids to know her as a po*n star. She has written a bitter sweet book on her life.

Jenna still is related to the adult entertainment business and runs her own studio and site not. But she is also now a well respected celebrity. She has had interviews and discussions with well respected talk show hosts on various channels as well as Oprah. She often very honestly and candidly expresses regrets over her choices, and how things snowball into each other. She explains how she still asserted herself and there were certain things she never did. She does not try to glamorize the industry or justify her choices, and accepts issues with drug usage and other problems. While Jenna and her celebrity status has been criticized and attacked by conservatives, many people including moral conservatives praise Jenna for her honesty and the work she does.

Jenna Jameson is a very ordinary woman coming from modest backgrounds. Just like other women she too is committed to family and children. She also had sexual ideals she did not want to compromise. But at the same time she made some choices and compromises. She willfully became a po*n star and her entire wealth is based of it. She has expressed gratitude that she was never abused or had to compromise her sexual choices with what she did, and she runs her po*n business to ensure that her contracted stars are well treated, well paid. She understands that for many small town people who don't have skills, education, or even a family to support them - stripping and po*n is a means to get somewhere.

She is also a compassionate person who is engaged in charities like PETA as well as political funding for womens rights organizations. Actually a large amount of charity for womens shelters, battered womens and domestic violence victims programs don't come from concerned citizens but actually from po*n stars, strippers and playboy girls who first hand know the difficult choices women - especially women from abused or economically underprivileged background make.

In a country where po*n was illegal Jenna would have never been able to leave the industry for her kids. She would never have had an opportunity at relationships or family. She would never have been able to discuss the industry, the challenges, the choices candidly in a book or on camera. She would have never become an entrepreneur - who runs a responsible business. She would have never had the income for the charity she does.

Perhaps even prostitution can be the same someday. Maybe we can have a world where women who make choices to enter the trade can have a choice to get out. We can have a world where prostitutes having relationships and family is not a far fetched idea. Maybe legalization will bring more in the foreground honest candid discussions on the industries and challenges faced. Maybe former prostitutes can go back and run their own brothels to minimize the risk and abuse in the industry. Maybe prostitutes will reinvest their income into charity so that other women will not have to make the choices they did.

Legalizing is about allowing people their choices, developing moral and social tolerance to people who make choices and allowing a compassionate system that allows people the chances to change or rectify their choices.

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casper

@Roadrunnerz

Voyager

Posted: 15 years ago

#227

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

The pro-legalization side has not been against rehabilitation and economic support. We have not denied the fact that some people are dying to get a better job and find a place in society. But we are not letting this concern blind us to the fact of how society as a whole views prostitution.

Rehabilitated prostitutes are not easily accepted into society. The taboo of the past is always with them. Even when they get jobs they are jeered, taunted, ridiculed. They are unable to make friends like ordinary people. People avoid socializing with them or interacting with them. Despite a yearning desire to get married, have families of their own, raise children - a societal dream of many people - they can never have that.

And yet people in the pro- group here have been saying that these women consent and willingly take up these profession !!! Not only that but prostitution is also being equated to "just like any other service"

How many people would actually accept a former prostitute as a daughter in law? How many people would really adopt a child prostitute? How many people would actually welcome with open arms a former prostitute into their neighborhood, into their workplaces? It would take a radical change in societal attitudes to truly rehabilitate prostitutes and give them their dreams. Due to ostracism, humiliation many rehabilitated prostitutes steep into chronic depression - some commit suicide. Many even revert back to the trade because even though physically abusive, psychologically it provides a safe haven. At the brothel amidst other prostitutes they fit in and have emotional support. Outside of that they are all alone, terrified and frightened with barely any support. In the brothel they get something they will never get outside of it "Love and acceptance by peers".

And what do you suggest be done about it ? give it a stamp of approval by making this profession legally approved ? ?

What does legalization do?

It provides exactly the steps that are needed to rehabilitate prostitutes into society as ordinary human beings.

1) Whether out of choice, desperation or being forced into slavery it provides a legal framework to give prostitutes basic legal and human rights like safety and good health.
2) It changes the moral framework from 'prostitution is immoral' to 'exploitation is immoral' and focuses on the people who exploit and abuse.

It does not appear that way to me .

Basically it sends a message - we don't know why you are in the trade, we don't know what economic and social backgrounds you come from, we don't know what choices you had and why you made them. But when you are ready to leave the past behind and step up, we will try and support you in every way we can. It sends the message to stop treating prostitutes like nasty s**ts or something, but treat them like a human being.

Why cant legislation be used to send a much stronger message that prostitution is not to something to be encouraged or promoted ?

Yes it does make prostitution more palatable and acceptable as a profession. But in return it also tries to teach society to treat people in the sex trade with more compassion and respect. It makes people more open to having former prostitutes move up and be in the contributing work force. It makes people more open to having former prostitutes in their family. It promotes a society where humans are treated as humans with rights and compassion - irrespective of bad choices - that were forced or out of pure choice.

How in heavens does it do that ?? Is there any proposal to have jobs reserved for ex prostitutes or also for ex clients, ex pimps. Society has somewhat discriminatory attitude towards all these after all though to different extents.

Let me reiterate that it does not change the moral fabric of society, nor does it make prostitution glorious. I've stated several times that prostitution or sex for sale will never be desirable, morally/religiously acceptable and normative sexual ethics will always prevail in society.

Morals are shaped by perceptions in society, by trying to make prostitution acceptable this is exactly what is being tried to be imposed on people who do not approve of it as being moral ! Once the morals regarding these change a host of other ethics will be affected too. The way morals and ethics are fast getting eroded I doubt anyone will bat an eyelash about all this ! As it is Its bad enough at present !

Legalization only creates a society of tolerance, compassion and mobility. Exactly the same principles we needed when we needed to emancipate untouchables, slaves, women out of their old roles into contributing members of regular society. Without legalization society will always focus on the "prostitution is immoral" ethic rigidly and never develop the tolerance and compassion to let prostitutes move outside and up - have jobs and families.

Untouchability and slavery were sought to be abolished and not made legally approved of unlike prostitution ! Therein lies the main difference !

To give an example of how changed social perceptions can change lives, let me give the example of the po*n industry.

Instead of the po*n industry I would like to give an example of someone who really tried to rehabilitate the sex workers . Legislation or no legislation.. it did not deter her ...it was an approach in the right direction unlike those trying to commercialise a social evil in the guise of safeguarding their interests .

https://www.ted.com/talks/sunitha_krishnan_tedindia.html

https://www.ted.com/index.php/speakers/sunitha_krishnan.html

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 15 years ago

#228

I was just reminded of this SVU episode. I don't think there it supports any sides, just shows a difficult story.

Caution: SVU airs on prime time on public TV. But viewer discretion advised.

http://www.megavideo.com/?v=GO6FRII6

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