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Posted: 1 years ago
#1

My first question is, did Lord Krishna use Arjuna and all that friendship was for political gain or for the establishment of dharma? If yes, then what was the reason of him saying that he could not live on this Earth without Arjuna? Why did he regard Arjuna above everything and everyone? Furthermore, he expressed these sentiments not only in Arjuna's presence but even when Arjuna was absent. Why did he call only Arjuna when the Yadu clan was facing a crisis, and everything was on the verge of destruction? Were there no trustworthy people left in the Yadu clan or anywhere else whom he could rely on completely? If it was just for the political gain then why he could not make friends with Yudhishthir? Why did he not ask for help from Yudhishthir?


And people like Krishna, who did not just speak casually, who did not usually expressed his feelings so openly for everyone, I mean, even if he did express, he did not get overly emotional and use to say just anything. For him, to say that my life, my kinsmen, and everything was above Arjun is not a trivial matter. Saying that no one is dearer to him than Arjun is not a small thing either. He hasn't even said this much for his wives, so why for Arjun?

for 1 minute let's forget Nara and Narayana fact because even his 8 wives were the incarnations, even his brother was known as Sheshnag, so why only for Arjun?


Was this friendship was only for his own benefit and he just arjun for his gain?


Now why I am asking this, this is because I've been reading quite a few opinions where people are saying that Krishna just used Arjun for his own motives, he forced Arjun and all that.


Trust me, when I am writing this I am feeling so bad as I am Parth Madhav fan but still I want to write this to know different opinions and even if we share the same opinion then also to add more points to this claim, everyone's opinion is most welcome.

Please feel free to comment your views here regardless of what you think

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IWasHareeshFan thumbnail
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Posted: 1 years ago
#2

I am trying to tag people but I don't know whether I am able to do that or not. Please if you are reading this then try to tag more member who are on this forum.

Edited by IWasHareeshFan - 1 years ago
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Posted: 1 years ago
#3

I am trying to tag people but I don't know whether I am able to tag anyone or not, if someone is reading this then please tag more members who are on this forum.

Edited by IWasHareeshFan - 1 years ago
devashree_h thumbnail
Posted: 1 years ago
#4

As requested by TM, I am tagging people to participate in this Topic.

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Posted: 1 years ago
#5

Hi! I'll just try to answer this from my interpretations while reading parts of MB/SB/H right? So please feel free to correct any facts I might get wrong. smiley9 Also thanks OP for allowing me to rant after a long time! smiley36


So, in my understanding, Krishna and Arjun were both very lonely people. Both of them were stripped from their childhood homes and families, and forced to grow up amidst hostility and constant conflict, when they met after Draupadi's swayamvar, they instantly latch on to each other. I mean, yes, both Krishna and Arjun had brothers who went through the same kind of issues, but at some point, you encounter a boundary with your immediate family, such that you can't really tell them everything that you're feeling. A friend peering in from outside is a much 'safer' choice. I'd imagine it's roughly the same kind of thought process that makes people talk about their personal struggles anonymously on social media instead of with their families.


In this process, they both also become extremely possessive of each other. For Arjun, we see this when he sheds all his inhibitions at Kurukshetra not when he hears the Geeta, but rather when Krishna gets wounded the first time. That's when the Kaurava side finds out exactly how dangerous Arjuna can be. And that's when Krishna is barely scratched by an arrow, and thankfully we never find out what Arjun would have done if Krishna actually got hurt. Arjun was fighting only half-heartedly in the beginning, but once Krishna is targeted he becomes fiercer, now actually concentrating on the battle, and then finally when Krishna almost murders Bheeshma, that's when Arjun becomes fully activated, so to speak. Also, he would've totally murdered Shishupal during the rajasuya (to hell with the 100 offences), if not for Krishna stopping him...this is a rare kind of aggression for Arjun which he doesn't show even in the dice hall!


Krishna, on the other hand, shows his devotion in a slightly different way. So, for most of MB we see that he is partial to Arjuna, and he never really hides it. He gets Subhadra married to Arjuna, takes him on picnics on Kailash and shows him Vaikuntha just for fun. Moreover, he technically didn't need to participate in Kurukshetra. With Subhadra married to Arjun and Lakshamana married to Shamba, he could've easily cited an algebraic cancellation and got out of the whole mess like most of the other Yadavas. But he chooses to go to Matsya, and moreover offers to part himself from his beloved, personally trained army! I mean it was kind of genius to bait Duryodhan into thinking he won that bargain (if Shakuni mama was there, he would've definitely chosen Krishna, and immediately have him thrown in a dungeon and use him as a hostage to force the Pandavas into surrendering)!


Krishna is not just partial to Arjuna, but he is downright desperate to protect him from anything and everything. From personally waiting on Arjuna in Dwarka during happier times, to breaking every moral code he's ever stood for during the war, Krishna's love for Arjuna outshines every other horrible thing that happens.


Krishna is quite open about his decision to get Arjuna out of the dharma-yudhha mess alive. In fact, he makes it clear to Draupadi herself that if it came down to choosing between Draupadi and Arjun, Krishna would choose Arjun always, without a second thought. We see this in action when he offers to have Draupadi marry Karna in exchange for his support to Pandavas, thereby averting the whole war. We see how Krishna doesn't care how many people he has to sacrifice (Abhimanyu, Ghatotkach, upa-Pandavas, his Narayani sena, Parikshit, and borderline forcing Shikhandi to detransition, although the source of this I can't quite remember right now), how many times he has to endure the Vaishnavastra, how many times he has to make Yudhishthir lie, how many times he has to forget his vows, how many times he has to make literal celestial bodies bow to his will, all of it is taken in stride just so Arjun lives to see another sunrise. At one point, I do feel he stops caring about preserving Arjun's feelings through this (point: sacrificing his kids) and just making sure he's alive, no matter how broken or hopeless. It's almost as if Krishna's just on auto-pilot the whole time.


His whole life, Krishna asks Arjun for just one thing, which is to get the citizens of Dwarka out of the island/coastline alive before the tsunami hits. Even that, Arjuna is informed of only after Krishna is no longer on the earth. And Arjuna also is ironically one of the only people (except maybe Nand-Yashoda, Radha and gopis) to never ask Krishna for a favour! No matter how tough their life got, Arjun never asked Krishna for anything for himself. I can imagine how Krishna, the human god, would constantly be bombarded with prayers and requests literally wherever he went, so I can see why people like Arjuna would be somewhat of a relief. Even during Geeta, Arjun is like, "I can't do this!" and not "You can't make me do this!" And Krishna likewise is not like, "You have to do this!" He's just like, "You can do this, but only if you believe you can!" Krishna basically goes over all the pros and cons of the available choices but ultimately leaves the final decision to Arjun.


**I'll edit/add to this later if I can remember more dramatic stuff to add! smiley37


Also although my signature quote is form doctor who, i can totally hear Krishna and Arjun both saying it to each other in some wilder au smiley42

Edited by wayward - 1 years ago
IWasHareeshFan thumbnail
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Posted: 1 years ago
#6

Originally posted by: wayward

Hi! I'll just try to answer this from my interpretations while reading parts of MB/SB/H right? So please feel free to correct any facts I might get wrong. smiley9 Also thanks OP for allowing me to rant after a long time! smiley36




**I'll edit/add to this later if I can remember more dramatic stuff to add! smiley37


Also although my signature quote is form doctor who, i can totally hear Krishna and Arjun both saying it to each other in some wilder au smiley42

deleted

Edited by IWasHareeshFan - 1 years ago
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Posted: 1 years ago
#7

Originally posted by: wayward



Also although my signature quote is form doctor who, i can totally hear Krishna and Arjun both saying it to each other in some wilder au smiley42


Hi! I'll just try to answer this from my interpretations while reading parts of MB/SB/H right? So please feel free to correct any facts I might get wrong. smiley9 Also thanks OP for allowing me to rant after a long time! smiley36

hi, actually even I have so many questions and this is just the first one, I have seen so many posts on various epic shows forum but could not ask any questions as those forums were locked long a go, how now I think I am at right place.

MB is Mahabharat, but what is SB and H


Krishna, on the other hand, shows his devotion in a slightly different way. So, for most of MB we see that he is partial to Arjuna, and he never really hides it. He gets Subhadra married to Arjuna, takes him on picnics on Kailash and shows him Vaikuntha just for fun.


ohho don't say about picnic, the amount of talking they both do is unbelievable and they have a weird audacity to explain each and everything in details and that too step by step, they talk about everything as if they are talking for the last time😂, whenever I read their convo I am like please ruk jaiye, baad mei mil kar baaki ki baate kar lena aur thoda short meibaat karo please, puri zindgi ki kahani idhar hi discuss karni hai kya😂 😂😂. Even when he came to visit pandavas in vanvaas after dice hall incident, Arjun asked him "how are you" and someone asked him "where have you been" and he started discribing each and everything in detail, matlab each and every bit of incident he described in details, I wonder what people around him must be thinking, Arjun toh must be enjoying as they were fond of talking but what about 4 pandavs and Draupadi.

But not gonna lie, whenever they both talk I enjoy alot, but its too long at the same time I love Krishn and Arjun so chalega.


In fact, he makes it clear to Draupadi herself that if it came down to choosing between Draupadi and Arjun, Krishna would choose Arjun always, without a second thought.


Really! when did this happen?


His whole life, Krishna asks Arjun for just one thing, which is to get the citizens of Dwarka out of the island/coastline alive before the tsunami hits. Even that, Arjuna is informed of only after Krishna is no longer on the earth.


So I have heard that after he left the world and Arjun was going back to hastinapur with his wives and children then robbers attacked however arjun could not even fight with normal/simple robbers, leave fighting he could not even handle his bow properly and by the time he could manage his bow whatever could happen just happened. Now what do you think why this happened? A person who could defeat great warriors could not fight simple robbers, why? was he depressed or something? or what could be the reason?


**I'll edit/add to this later if I can remember more dramatic stuff to add! smiley37


haan haan please do, I am waiting would love to here everyone.

btw a devil's thought, the only way this forum can be active once again if swastik production brings a new show, those who will watch the show will definitely look for a place to rant and then they will look for different forums so we can suggest them this forum, in this way we can increase the engagement on this forum😉.

Edited by IWasHareeshFan - 1 years ago
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Posted: 1 years ago
#8

If you are having trouble tagging members of this private forum, you should report the technical issue here: https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/suggestions-comments/5317283/site-updates-and-issues-discussions-7-dt-note-122


You cannot tag anyone who hasn't joined this private forum, or anyone whose tagging preference is set to Buddies Only, but not being able to tag anyone at all is a restriction for Newbies. You shouldn't have this problem as a Senior Member.


My request to you: only quote what is needed for the context of your reply. Or, hit Reply without quoting. When you quote the same entire post twice, it becomes too much scrolling.

Originally posted by: IWasHareeshFan

My first question is, did Lord Krishna use Arjuna and all that friendship was for political gain or for the establishment of dharma?

...

Was this friendship was only for his own benefit and he just arjun for his gain?

Sabhāparvan 29.1 and 29.19 tell us that Vāsudeva(s), meaning Kṛṣṇa leading his brothers and sons, had conquered the western part of Bhārata (for Vasudeva's Aśvamedha) before Nakula set out to conquer it for Yudhiṣṭhira's Rājasūya. Thus, Kṛṣṇa had to convince his father Vasudeva to support Yudhiṣṭhira (Sabhāparvan 30.12), or they would have had to compete for the allegiance of the kingdoms between them.


Kṛṣṇa always had a strong political motive to maintain friendship with the Pāṇḍavas. Like his kinsman Yuyudhāna Sātyaki (Āraṇyakaparvan 120.20), Kṛṣṇa probably regarded his nephew Abhimanyu as their heir. Kṛṣṇa's own dharma to defend and expand his territory was served by exhorting the Pāṇḍavas to observe their dharma to fight and regain their kingdom.


To win the war, Kṛṣṇa deliberately deceived his friend Arjuna about who Karṇa was (Karṇaparvan 51.50-66), saying that Arjuna could show mercy to Aśvatthāman for Droṇa's sake, to Kṛpa as his teacher, to Kṛtavarman as a distant relative, to Śalya as his mother's brother, but not to Karṇa, whom he mischaracterized as pāpa-matiṃ kṣudram atyantaṃ Pāṇḍavān prati - malevolent and extremely petty towards Pāṇḍu's sons. Kṛṣṇa didn't just keep quiet about Karṇa's parentage so that Arjuna wouldn't be distracted from dharma; Kṛṣṇa vocally misled Arjuna to believe that Kṛtavarman and Śalya were family, but Karṇa was nobody.


Before the war (Udyogaparvan 138.4-15), Kṛṣṇa had found it politically convenient to go behind the Pāṇḍavas' backs and say to Karṇa, ehi rājā bhaviṣyasi - come, you'll be king! Praising Karṇa as dharma-śāstreṣu sūkṣmeṣu pariniṣṭhitaḥ - thoroughly educated in the finest details of legal practices, Kṛṣṇa had promised him, pādau tava grahīṣyanti - the Pāṇḍavas and their sons, their allies and all of the Andhaka-Vṛṣṇis will clutch your feet. Kṛṣṇa had even promised Karṇa, ṣaṣṭhe ca tvāṃ tathā kāle Draupady upagamiṣyati - and furthermore, at the sixth time, Drupada's daughter will approach you. Karṇa had refused all of this temptation because he was a loyal friend. And Kṛṣṇa, instead of telling his friends the Pāṇḍavas so that they could have made the same offer to Karṇa themselves, effectively handing victory to Duryodhana, decided to tell Arjuna that Karṇa was malevolent and petty.


When Kṛṣṇa heard that Karṇa had refused to fight under Bhīṣma's command, Kṛṣṇa invited Karṇa to fight on the Pāṇḍava side (Bhīṣmaparvan 41.85-86). Kṛṣṇa actually suggested that when Bhīṣma was slain, Karṇa could switch and fight on the Dhārtarāṣṭra side again! Karṇa curtly turned down the chance to be a traitor, saying, tyakta-prāṇaṃ hi māṃ viddhi Duryodhana-hit'aiṣiṇam - know me only as sacrificing my life-breaths to act in Duryodhana's interest. I haven't seen any indication that Kṛṣṇa ever told the Pāṇḍavas about this conversation.


The dharma that Kṛṣṇa followed when he tried to win over Karṇa was a politician's dharma to seek the easiest route to victory, whether by avoiding bloodshed or by exploiting animosity. This dharma did not value honesty, bravery, loyalty, or a polyandrous wife's sexual autonomy.

Originally posted by: IWasHareeshFan


If it was just for the political gain then why he could not make friends with Yudhishthir? Why did he not ask for help from Yudhishthir?

As the King, Yudhiṣṭhira himself would not head out on a rescue mission. He would send his army commander, Arjuna. Likewise, Yudhiṣṭhira remained in his capital city while his brothers went in four directions to conquer the land before Rājasūya. Throughout the story, Kṛṣṇa behaved as Yudhiṣṭhira's friend, getting his head sniffed and all.

Originally posted by: IWasHareeshFan


If yes, then what was the reason of him saying that he could not live on this Earth without Arjuna? Why did he regard Arjuna above everything and everyone?

...

For him, to say that my life, my kinsmen, and everything was above Arjun is not a trivial matter. Saying that no one is dearer to him than Arjun is not a small thing either.


Didn't other characters also express superlative affection for Arjuna? Droṇa, Bhīṣma, Yudhiṣṭhira, and Kṛṣṇā Draupadī all expressed "I need it to be Arjuna" sentiments, right?


This could just be how the authors signalled to the audience that the story's hero was special.


My impression is that the character of Kṛṣṇa as a strategist who led troops for his father's Aśvamedha existed before the story of Mahābhārata, and the invincible warrior character of Arjuna was imagined as a manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's ability. That is why they are often called Kṛṣṇau - the two Kṛṣṇas.

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Posted: 1 years ago
#9


My request to you: only quote what is needed for the context of your reply. Or, hit Reply without quoting. When you quote the same entire post twice, it becomes too much scrolling.

OK I will keep this in mind

I have removed all the quotes and only used those quotes which were necessary for my reply. I have also written passages, and she/he (the above user) has also written a long one, so it's becoming very long. Actually, I tried to remove quotes, but the updated post was turning into two separate posts, I don't know why. Therefore I have deleted and made a fresh one. I hope now its fine.


OK so what is your opinion, was it all fake? I mean throughout the epic he has expressed his love for Arjun so many times not just in front of him but even when he was not present, did he not mean anything? Were those words simply words and nothing more than that?


See I have my own opinion but here I want to know what people think, I mean just for different point of views nothing else.

Edited by IWasHareeshFan - 1 years ago
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Posted: 1 years ago
#10

Originally posted by: devashree_h

As requested by TM, I am tagging people to participate in this Topic.


what is your opinion, please share with us?

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