Shivji in Mahabharat - Page 4

Originally posted by: BrhannadaArmour

Yes, I'm over-analyzing a work of fiction.

Before I stop, let's look at the list of names of Dhṛtarāṣṭra's sons, which is supposed to be according to jyeṣṭh'ānujyeṣṭhatā ... ānupūrvyeṇa - birth seniority in chronological order (Ādiparvan 108.1). The list begins with Duryodhana, Yuyutsu, Duḥśāsana ... So, although Duḥśāsana functioned as next in line of succession to Duryodhana (Āraṇyakaparvan 238.21-22), the actual secondborn son was Yuyutsu, a karaṇa child conceived by a vaiśyā who attended Dhṛtarāṣṭra while Gāndhārī's pregnancy dragged on for an extra year.

This detail raises the question, if Gāndhārī hadn't aborted her pregnancy, would all of her hundred sons have been born before Yuyutsu? Or, did the abortion in response to Yudhiṣṭhira being born first ensure that Duryodhana was born before Yuyutsu?

The three cousins' or half-brothers' names, all derived from the same dhātu - root, which is yudh - battle, suggest that we should consider them as a set: Yudhiṣṭhira - firm in battle; Duryodhana - difficult to battle; Yuyutsu - ready for battle. Whoever named Yuyutsu expected warlike behaviour from him, like a kṣatriya, despite his mother being a vaiśyā. Yuyutsu was undefeated by kings who fought with him for six months at Vāraṇāvata, according to Dhṛtarāṣṭra (Droṇaparvan 9.54-55). Just before the war began, Yuyutsu the mahāratha defected from Duryodhana to Yudhiṣṭhira (Bhīṣmaparvan 41.90-95). On the twelfth day of war, Yuyutsu cut off the arms of his brother Subāhu in battle (Droṇaparvan 24.13-14), presumably preventing Bhīma's fulfilment of his vow to kill all one hundred sons of Gāndhārī. Yuyutsu was defeated by Gāndhārī's nephew Ulūka on the sixteenth day of war (Karṇaparvan 18.1-11). Yudhiṣṭhira ultimately bequeathed the entire kingdom to Yuyutsu the vaiśyā's son (rājyaṃ paridadau sarvaṃ vaiśyā-putre Yudhiṣṭhiraḥ; Mahāprasthānikaparvan 1.6), twenty-one years after expressing his wish to do so so that Dhṛtarāṣṭra wouldn't retire to the forest (Āśramavāsikaparvan 6.7).

If Duryodhana had been born after Yuyutsu, would the cousins' competition for the kingdom have been averted entirely?

The list of Dhṛtarāṣṭra's sons ends with Kuṇḍāśin - pit-eater and Virajas - free of dust, names that suggest that the penultimate son took his time to absorb all of the clarified butter in his pit, and the youngest son absorbed every last particle so that nothing was stuck to him by the time he was born.

Many other characters in Mahābhārata are said to have a hundred sons, to the point that Nārada counts these among the royals attending Yama's assembly (Sabhāparvan 8.21-22):

śataṃ Matsyā nṛpatayaḥ śataṃ Nīpāḥ śataṃ Hayāḥ

Dhṛtarāṣṭrāś c'aika-śatam aśītir Janamejayāḥ

śataṃ ca Brahmadattānām Īriṇāṃ vairiṇāṃ śatam

A hundred Matsyas, leaders of men, a hundred Nīpas, a hundred Hayas, and one-and-a-hundred Dhṛtarāṣṭras, eighty Janamejayas, and a hundred of Brahmadattas, a hundred of feuding Īris.

It was customary to refer to a paternal uncle as one's father, and to nephews as sons. Thus, a king who led a hundred princes of his clan could be said to have a hundred sons. Yet we find literal explanations of how a king himself begot a hundred sons: "Hehaya had a hundred renowned, brave, undeterred sons from ten women" (Anuśāsanaparvan 31.8) or "in ten months, a hundred sons were born to Somaka from all those women" (Āraṇyakaparvan 128.6). The same urge to explain literally how one woman could have a hundred sons led to the imaginative story of Gāndhārī's childbirth.

but even if yuyutsu would have born before duryodhan then also could he become the king? I mean even Vidur was the son of Rishi Ved Vyas but he could not become the king because he was born from a women who was said to be dasi there.

Originally posted by: IWasHareeshFan

so has any women in history (in Mahabharat history) given birth to 100 children through the natural process?

Yama blessed Sāvitrī in these words (Āraṇyakaparvan 281.56-58):

catur-varṣa-śataṃ c'āyus tvayā s'ārdham avāpsyati

iṣṭvā yajñaiś ca dharmeṇa khyātiṃ loke gamiṣyati

tvayi putra-śataṃ c'aiva Satyavāñ janayiṣyati

te c'āpi sarve rājānaḥ kṣatriyāḥ putra-pautriṇaḥ

khyātās tvan-nāma-dheyāś ca bhaviṣyant'īha śāśvatāḥ

pituś ca te putra-śataṃ bhavitā tava mātari

Mālavyāṃ Mālavā nāma śāśvatāḥ putra-pautriṇaḥ

bhrātaras te bhaviṣyanti kṣatriyās tridaś'opamāḥ

A lifespan of four hundred rains he'll attain, together with you, and by performing fire-sacrifices righteously, he'll become renowned in the world. And indeed, Satyavat will beget a hundred sons in you, and all of them too will be kṣatriya kings with sons and grandsons, renowned and known by your name perpetually. And your father's hundred sons will be in your mother, Mālavī, named Mālavas; with sons and grandsons perpetually, your brothers will be kṣatriyas comparable to the Thrice Ten Gods.

So, Sāvitrī and Mālavī were each supposed to give birth to a hundred sons without any surrogacy. The number of pregnancies, whether live births or gourds or lumps of flesh, is left up to our imagination, as is the question of whether a woman's lifetime of four hundred years would be happier with or without a hundred childbearing years.

Originally posted by: IWasHareeshFan

but even if yuyutsu would have born before duryodhan then also could he become the king? I mean even Vidur was the son of Rishi Ved Vyas but he could not become the king because he was born from a women who was said to be dasi there.

Without being eldest, Yuyutsu eventually inherited the kingdom anyway, and he did everything else that a kṣatriya would do. So, if he had been born first, his claim to inherit would have been stronger. Vidura, on the other hand, is never described as fighting battles, right? The word karaṇa is used for both of them because their mothers were of lower castes, but the word kṣattṛ - steward is only used for Vidura.

Anuśāsanaparvan 48.7 states the principle that a kṣatriya's children from a kṣatriyā or from a vaiśyā have kṣatriya status. However, a kṣatriya's child from a śūdrā is not a kṣatriya. Accordingly, Vidura's marriage was arranged with King Devaka's daughter who was a pāraśavī, begotten by a brāhmaṇa with a śūdrā.

Originally posted by: BrhannadaArmour

Yama blessed Sāvitrī in these words (Āraṇyakaparvan 281.56-58):

catur-varṣa-śataṃ c'āyus tvayā s'ārdham avāpsyati

iṣṭvā yajñaiś ca dharmeṇa khyātiṃ loke gamiṣyati

tvayi putra-śataṃ c'aiva Satyavāñ janayiṣyati

te c'āpi sarve rājānaḥ kṣatriyāḥ putra-pautriṇaḥ

khyātās tvan-nāma-dheyāś ca bhaviṣyant'īha śāśvatāḥ

pituś ca te putra-śataṃ bhavitā tava mātari

Mālavyāṃ Mālavā nāma śāśvatāḥ putra-pautriṇaḥ

bhrātaras te bhaviṣyanti kṣatriyās tridaś'opamāḥ

A lifespan of four hundred rains he'll attain, together with you, and by performing fire-sacrifices righteously, he'll become renowned in the world. And indeed, Satyavat will beget a hundred sons in you, and all of them too will be kṣatriya kings with sons and grandsons, renowned and known by your name perpetually. And your father's hundred sons will be in your mother, Mālavī, named Mālavas; with sons and grandsons perpetually, your brothers will be kṣatriyas comparable to the Thrice Ten Gods.

So, Sāvitrī and Mālavī were each supposed to give birth to a hundred sons without any surrogacy. The number of pregnancies, whether live births or gourds or lumps of flesh, is left up to our imagination, as is the question of whether a woman's lifetime of four hundred years would be happier with or without a hundred childbearing years.

I am getting tired even while imagining them giving live birth to 100 children, I mean how exhaustive the process would have been if they would have given birth through natural process.

Originally posted by: BrhannadaArmour

Without being eldest, Yuyutsu eventually inherited the kingdom anyway, and he did everything else that a kṣatriya would do. So, if he had been born first, his claim to inherit would have been stronger. Vidura, on the other hand, is never described as fighting battles, right? The word karaṇa is used for both of them because their mothers were of lower castes, but the word kṣattṛ - steward is only used for Vidura.

Anuśāsanaparvan 48.7 states the principle that a kṣatriya's children from a kṣatriyā or from a vaiśyā have kṣatriya status. However, a kṣatriya's child from a śūdrā is not a kṣatriya. Accordingly, Vidura's marriage was arranged with King Devaka's daughter who was a pāraśavī, begotten by a brāhmaṇa with a śūdrā.

accha one more thing, although the question is not related to the topic but still I am asking

Was it necessary for the one who was going to become the king to engage in a battle fight? Was it not possible for someone to fight on his behalf?

I am asking this for Dhritrashtra. Let's set aside all the other things like him being blind due to his love for his son, etc. But if we talk on the basis that he had all the physical strength required for a king, he could crush a statue with his bare hands, he had knowledge of weapons, and he had knowledge of scriptures (holy books), who knows if he had been made king, he might not have turned out the way he became? What was his main problem, that he could not become the king and now even his son will not able to become the king and same thing will happen to his son also.

See I am not at all fond of dhritrashtra but this is the only question which I googled but still I could not et an answer.

Why he was rejected, just because he was blind right? so rejecting someone just on the bases of their physical disability was this even fair?

and what happened after that, he became the king although only the caretaker but still he was the king and still there was nothing wrong with hastinapur, I mean still people were not attacking because Bhishma pitamah was there and many other powerful people were there. So was the point of rejecting him before when things would have been same in the kingdom.

I am only talking from politics and war point of view.

Satyavatī objected: n'āndhaḥ Kurūṇāṃ nṛpatir anurūpaḥ - a blind man is not a befitting leader of men for the Kurus (Ādiparvan 100.11). She didn't say that Dhṛtarāṣṭra couldn't perform the duties of a king. Her objection might have been that a king shouldn't have fewer faculties than his subjects, ideally.

Ādiparvan chapter 102 tells us that all three brothers were taught archery, horseback, mace-battle, sword-and-shield, elephant control, and politics. Pāṇḍu excelled at archery, Dhṛtarāṣṭra at physical strength, and Vidura at dharma - policy. However, Dhṛtarāṣṭra was unsighted and Vidura was karaṇa, so someone decided that Pāṇḍu should be king.

As a parallel, when Pratīpa wanted to coronate his eldest son Devāpi, who was popular with the public, the brāhmaṇas, elders, citizens, and countrymen opposed it due to Devāpi's skin problem (Udyogaparvan 147.25):

hīn'āṅgaṃ pṛthivī-pālaṃ n'ābhinandanti devatāḥ

The Gods don't approve of a governor of the earth who has a deficient organ.

The public's own abilitist prejudice was attributed to the Gods who controlled the country's destiny.

Originally posted by: BrhannadaArmour

Satyavatī objected: n'āndhaḥ Kurūṇāṃ nṛpatir anurūpaḥ - a blind man is not a befitting leader of men for the Kurus (Ādiparvan 100.11). She didn't say that Dhṛtarāṣṭra couldn't perform the duties of a king. Her objection might have been that a king shouldn't have fewer faculties than his subjects, ideally.

Ādiparvan chapter 102 tells us that all three brothers were taught archery, horseback, mace-battle, sword-and-shield, elephant control, and politics. Pāṇḍu excelled at archery, Dhṛtarāṣṭra at physical strength, and Vidura at dharma - policy. However, Dhṛtarāṣṭra was unsighted and Vidura was karaṇa, so someone decided that Pāṇḍu should be king.

As a parallel, when Pratīpa wanted to coronate his eldest son Devāpi, who was popular with the public, the brāhmaṇas, elders, citizens, and countrymen opposed it due to Devāpi's skin problem (Udyogaparvan 147.25):

hīn'āṅgaṃ pṛthivī-pālaṃ n'ābhinandanti devatāḥ

The Gods don't approve of a governor of the earth who has a deficient organ.

The public's own abilitist prejudice was attributed to the Gods who controlled the country's destiny.

Sometimes I feel that people in that yug were forward than us, but in few aspects I still think that they were backward, after seeing the traits of Dhrit I agree that he was not worthy to become a king, but still according to me the ground for rejecting was not valid.

but still, we can't judge them on the bases of today's norms and rules, every generation/time/yug had, have and will have some problem so judging them on the bases of today's situation will not be good.

Why no one is talking other than both of us? please koi aur bhi toh kuch bolo

accha I have a few questions to ask, however those questions are not related to this topic, any idea where can I ask?

Originally posted by: IWasHareeshFan

accha I have a few questions to ask, however those questions are not related to this topic, any idea where can I ask?

Create a new topic. You are allowed to.