Kartavya aur Pratigya ka Mahatva : Creator note Pg 3 - Page 2

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Posted: 3 years ago
#11

The beauty of Mahabharata is it's vastness and wide scope.

While the teachings are still just as relevant, we are an evolving society and nothing is absolute.

The idea is, to learn from the past, live today and be hopeful of a better tomorrow.

I guess we have beaten one instance through ALL sides.

We agree that there was resistance to the act itself, however, it was perhaps not effective enough to stop the act or perhaps, the counter force exceeded which further stamped the need for establishment of Dharma and Nyaya.


This was, but one instance.

There would certainly have been many instances where Pratigya and Kartavya have come in the way of Nyaya

It would be good to learn about more such instances.

Frankly, the discussions have been insightful in getting such varied perspectives.


Dhanyosmi 🙏🏻.

Edited by Bodhianveshika - 3 years ago
1123225 thumbnail
Posted: 3 years ago
#12

@BA


Your posts are way too long to quote.


Sorry, bud. It's one thing to be congenial. Yet another to excuse the excusing of sexual assault. And yes, it becomes relevant because WE are in modern times and the excusing is done by us. It is wrong on every level no matter what rule of congeniality is cited.


Ha! There you go. An example of rules overcoming any semblance of justice. 😊


I'm also referring to Critcial Edition. The Sanskrit version is freely available on the interwebs. The English translation can be bought.


You can translate it as overexcited. Panchali said intoxicated.


You can refer to the Critical edition to see where Bheeshma said dharma is what the might decreed.


You can also see exactly where Arjuna eventually did speak up even if only to parrot Panchali.


Panchali 100% calls it adharma. And it wasn't about her menstruation. That is simply derailing the discussion to excuse the horrendous crime.


And yes, you're now using the words lock and key to ignore the very real anger she shows after war, announcing all 5 brothers were lunatics who should've been locked away.


Am at work now but will post citations from CE. Let's not assume that other people are citing from TV shows.


The whitewashing attempts of the dice hall events excuse the criminals and their crime as well as their enablers. This is happening in 2022.

Edited by HearMeRoar - 3 years ago
1123225 thumbnail
Posted: 3 years ago
#13

. Earlier, it has been heard that pure and chaste wives are not

brought into the middle of a sabha. Where is the dharma of the lords of the earth? According

to dharma, it has earlier been heard that wives are not brought into an assembly hall. That

earlier eternal dharma has been lost among the Kouravas. How is it that the chaste wife of the

Pandus, the sister of Parshata’s son

221 and a friend to Vasudeva, has been brought into this

assembly of kings? O Kouravas! I am Dharmaraja’s wife and I was born in the same varna as

he. Tell me whether I am a slave or not a slave, and I will act accordingly. O Kouravas! This

mean one, the bringer of ill repute to the Kouravas, is firmly molesting me and I cannot bear

it any longer. O kings! O Kouravas! I want you to answer, whatever you might think, and I

will act accordingly. Have I been won or have I not been won?”

‘Bhishma replied, “O fortunate one! I have already said that the course of dharma is

supreme. Even the great-souled brahmanas in this world are incapable of comprehending its

course. When a powerful man uses force, that is perceived as dharma by the world. But if a

feeble one speaks about dharma, that is not regarded as dharma by others. I am incapable of

answering your question certainly. The


Bheeshma's idea of dharma. Dyuta Parva 287 (62)

1123225 thumbnail
Posted: 3 years ago
#14

Arjuna's words Dyuta Parva 288 (63)


words of the twins. O Yanjanseni! If they say that Yudhishthira wasn’t their lord, then you

will be freed from slavery.”

Arjuna said, “This great-souled King Dharmaraja, Kunti’s son, was certainly our master

when he first played with us as stake. But whose lord was he, once he had lost himself? O

assembled Kurus! All of you should decide that.”’

Vaishampayana said, ‘At that time, in King Dhritarashtra’s house, a jackal cried at the

agnihotra.235 O king! Donkeys brayed in response and from every direction, terrible birds

joined in. Vidura, who was knowledgeable in every

1123225 thumbnail
Posted: 3 years ago
#15

Panchali's final opinion on the Pandavas:


Chapter 1342 (14)


. Though she was always cherished by the king, she was always somewhat haughty, especially

towards Yudhishthira. Having been invited, the wide-hipped and extremely beautiful one glanced

towards her husband

95 and spoke these gentle word

...

. O Indra among kings! If the eldest brother is mad, all the others follow

him. Because you are mad, all the Pandavas will become mad. O lord of men! If these brothers of

yours were not mad, they should have bound you up with the non-believers and ruled the earth. A

person who acts stupidly does not obtain anything that is superior. A person who is on the path

towards madness should be treated with incense, collyrium, treatment through the nose,

102 medicines

and medical remedies. O supreme among the Bharata lineage! I am the worst of all women in the

world. Though I have been oppressed by the enemy, I still wish to remain alive.

Edited by HearMeRoar - 3 years ago
Agni_Jytsona thumbnail
Posted: 3 years ago
#16

Originally posted by: BrhannadaArmour

HearMeRoar, if you want my attention, the Reply button can be used to tag me. I haven't blocked anyone, but I hope you will read Interstellarr's Rules and Regulations for this forum. Straw-man arguments implying that other members are excusing sexual assault ... using Nirbhaya out of context for shock value ... your tactics are disruptive to the "friendly and healthy environment" and I may choose to ignore anything further in this tone.


I will discuss some points because you raised them, but you have gone off the topic of kartavya and pratijna getting in the way of justice. This is not the place for you to compete for the prize of being most outraged by mythological characters' offences, but I hope Bodhianveshika and Interstellarr will permit me to discuss what is present or absent in the text.


Which text, translation, or TV version are you following? I am using the annotated critical edition in the original language, and so if some manuscripts had extra lines with the kinds of dialogues that you are claiming, I would have seen them.


Krsna Draupadi doesn't ask if Yudhisthira was drunk (mattah); she repeats Pratikamin's expression "intoxicated with the pride of gambling" (dyuta-madena mattah) that I have translated as "overexcited."


Bhisma doesn't say that she's a slave or that the mighty get to dictate dharma in this episode. Arjuna doesn't defend her. I have already presented Bhisma's and Arjuna's speeches, so I won't repeat them here.


The text does not tell us that (insert your own focus here) was adharma. As I wrote already, Krsna Draupadi refers to "this fierce adharma" in such a way that if she's not still talking about menstruation in the hall, we have to imagine what her objection is. She does not repeatedly ask Bhisma whether her mistreatment is dharma; his voluntary speech and her reply are focussed on rules of gambling. She doesn't question Yudhisthira's right over her; she argues that he was cheated of her.


You use the expression "locked up," but are locks and keys ever mentioned in Mahabharata?


M.Wheeler, thanks for sharing what you think a character is feeling. However, concepts like "personal space" and "consent" that we consider obvious today were not on the tip of the tongue for whoever decided what Krsna Draupadi and other characters would say in this episode. You can always retell the story so that the characters focus on values that make sense to you. At the same time, to appreciate how far society has evolved, you can also listen attentively to the characters' emphasis on different values, and imagine the world in which that author lived.


Can you tell us where in the text Krsna Draupadi argues "woman s dignity, personal space, violence against women, treatment of daughter-in-law in the court?" I'm trying to translate "personal space" into Samskrta ...


It is there in critical edition ( If that is the version you follow)

Edited by M.Wheeler - 3 years ago
Agni_Jytsona thumbnail
Posted: 3 years ago
#17

Originally posted by: Bodhianveshika

The beauty of Mahabharata is it's vastness and wide scope.

While the teachings are still just as relevant, we are an evolving society and nothing is absolute.

The idea is, to learn from the past, live today and be hopeful of a better tomorrow.

I guess we have beaten one instance through ALL sides.

We agree that there was resistance to the act itself, however, it was perhaps not effective enough to stop the act or perhaps, the counter force exceeded which further stamped the need for establishment of Dharma and Nyaya.


This was, but one instance.

There would certainly have been many instances where Pratigya and Kartavya have come in the way of Nyaya

It would be good to learn about more such instances.

Frankly, the discussions have been insightful in getting such varied perspectives.


Dhanyosmi 🙏🏻.

If we are still talking about the dice hall sequence, then I would like to add that

Resistance that draupadi provided in dice hall was effective enough. She single handedely saved the day

Now coming to kartavya then one should read the draupadi speeches in vana parav where she talks at length about katvaya, justice , etc

I would post that citation later

Edited by M.Wheeler - 3 years ago
Posted: 3 years ago
#18

Note

Please keep your discussions within Mahabharat and its characters only. And please refrain yourselves from making indirect or direct personal attacks towards other members citing incidents outside Mahabharat.


Thanks & regards,

Interstellarr

1215019 thumbnail
Posted: 3 years ago
#19

I have already fully addressed Bodhianveshika’s chosen example of pratijñā and kartavya in conflict with righteousness. From the moment Śakuni asks Yudhiṣṭhira to disclose his remaining wealth (Kṛṣṇā Draupadī) until the moment Duḥśāsana sits down frustrated, that is, during the whole window of opportunity to “protect a woman’s honour” and “oppose what was happening because they knew it was wrong,” there is simply nothing in the text to suggest that pratijñā or kartavya was a consideration for any character except Yudhiṣṭhira and Kṛṣṇā Draupadī and Bhīma, or that the characters’ moral conscience was concerned with violence against women, rather than the questions of valid gambling, classification of women as wife or slave, and keeping menstruation out of sight. There is plenty of tears-shedding, ululating, cheering for Bhīma to drink Duḥśāsana’s blood, and saying “Dhik!” by the spectators, but what bothers them is open to interpretation.


Since HearMeRoar is quoting text from when it was too late to protect the woman from assault, I will point out that the characters like Vidura continue to demand only an answer to Kṛṣṇā Draupadī’s question, and not punishment for Duḥśāsana’s assault upon her. Vidura quotes Kaśyapa: if an assembly fails to condemn wrongdoing, the president (śreṣṭhaḥ) is half-guilty, the attendees are a quarter-guilty, and the wrongdoer is a quarter-guilty; if they condemn wrongdoing, the president and attendees are absolved and guilt belongs only to the wrongdoer; eye-witnesses, confessors, and hearsay-bearers all have responsibility as witnesses. Vidura here acknowledges his kartavya to call out wrongdoing. Why doesn’t he say that Duḥśāsana committed a crime, that no woman should be violated? Did Vidura, whose own mother was a slave, accept that abuse is part of slavery, and slavery is part of orderly society?


Kṛṣṇā Draupadī asks, what is more pitiful than the fact that she, being a respectable woman, has reached the middle of the hall? Where is the governors’ dharma? Formerly, men of dharma didn’t bring women to the hall, she has heard, but that permanent dharma of the past has been lost among Kuru’s descendants. Now, if this was actually dharma that society followed at the time, why didn’t she mention it when she sent Prātikāmin back to the hall without her? Why didn’t Vidura remind Duryodhana of this dharma while warning him about provoking his own death? In the very next chapter, Dhṛtarāṣṭra will speak in the hall right after Gāndhārī and Vidura tell him about bad omens; how is that possible if women don't enter the hall?


This whole speech of Kṛṣṇā Draupadī is poorly written. If the author wanted to make the point that violence against women is adharma, there could be no better place than this speech by a victim immediately following a sexual assault; however, that point is not phrased. Instead, the emphasis is that bringing women into the hall is not dharma, and hyperbole is used to describe how sheltered Kṛṣṇā Draupadī has been until today, in her room, unseen by wind or sun, untouched by the breeze. (Ironically, at this point Karṇa has ordered Duḥśāsana to take her to their rooms, and she insists on staying in the hall.) She laments that her husbands are suffering her touching by a bad man, the Kurus are forgiving the tormenting of their daughter-in-law and daughter who does not deserve it, and she cannot bear Duḥśāsana tormenting her for much longer. (She is the Kurus’ daughter in the most farfetched sense that Pañcālas are descendants of Ajamīḍha and Nīlī, and Kurus are descendants of Ajamīḍha and Dhūminī.) Now, shouldn’t she conclude by demanding justice for wrongdoing, as Vidura did? Instead, she promises twice that if they deem her a slave, she will obey.


Bhīṣma reiterates that dharma is subtle; at its limit (dharma-velāyāṃ), the view of the strongest person among people is adopted as dharma by the rest. The translation quoted by HearMeRoar is really misleading. Bhīṣma is not saying that dharma is always established by force; he is saying that in the specific situation of reaching the limit of established dharma, the person with the strongest ability to view dharma is followed by the rest. Bhīṣma goes on to say that he is unable to decide, he feels apprehensive, but he praises her for not deviating from dharma even in distress. Droṇa etc., the elders who know dharma, are looking dead, so Bhīṣma defers to Yudhiṣṭhira. Reading Bhīṣma’s speech as a whole, it’s obvious that the person he considers strongest to view dharma is Yudhiṣṭhira, a slave who is in no position to exert force.


At this point, the text switches to a different version of events: the governors, who were previously described as cheering for Bhīma against Duḥśāsana, now say neither "Right!" nor "Wrong!" to Kṛṣṇā Draupadī's question because they are afraid of Dhārtarāṣṭra (= Duryodhana). Duryodhana challenges Bhīma, Arjuna, Sahadeva, and Nakula to admit that Yudhiṣṭhira was not in control to stake her, that he lied by doing so. He challenges Dharmarāja himself to answer whether he was in control or not, and says that the other descendants of Kuru don't decide because they feel sorry for her and her husbands. Then everyone cheers for Duryodhana and wonders how each Pāṇḍava will reply. Bhīma says only that Yudhiṣṭhira is his master and he awaits his order to slay Dhṛtarāṣṭra's sons. After some words by Karṇa and Bhīma, Duryodhana again asks Yudhiṣṭhira to decide. As I've written before, I think Yudhiṣṭhira remains silent because he cannot speak against his master's interest after promising to be a loyal slave.


When Duryodhana shows his thigh to Kṛṣṇā Draupadī, and Bhīma vows to smash that thigh, there is no mention of how everyone in the hall reacted, unlike after his vow to drink Duḥśāsana's blood. Vidura comments that the gambling has gone too far when they are disputing a woman in the hall. He says that Yudhiṣṭhira would have been in control to stake her before being forfeit himself, but winning a round with someone not in control is like winning in a dream, invalid. Duryodhana again asks Bhīma, Arjuna, and the twins to declare that Yudhiṣṭhira was not in control. Finally, Arjuna says, how could he be in control when he himself was forfeit?

Edited by BrhannadaArmour - 3 years ago
1215019 thumbnail
Posted: 3 years ago
#20

Now I will move on to some actual examples of pratijñā compromises for the sake of self-interest. Self-interest (svasya ca priyam ātmanaḥ) is recognized as a feature of dharma in Bhagavad-Gītā.


When Arjuna tells Ulūpī that he cannot gratify her desire because his punishment is to practise celibacy for twelve years, she tells him to consider his vow limited to Kṛṣṇā Draupadī. Gratification of her desire is a worthy purpose. He accepts the compromise, and never bothers with celibacy thereafter. He goes on to propose marriage to Citrāṅgadā and take Subhadrā by force during those twelve years.

Edited by BrhannadaArmour - 3 years ago

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