Who killed Bhishma? - Page 3

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

My thought: I gave enough citations, including from Krishna's mouth and from Arjuna's own, that Shikhandi killed Bheeshma. Not merely helped or aided Arjuna, but killed.

That being said, I don't believe it happened in a vacuum. Shikhandi couldn't defeat Bheeshma on his own as seen on Day 7. Part of the reason is that Bheeshma did have a huge number of guards surrounding him as was appropriate for the commander-in-chief. Part of the reason COULD BE that the old chap was simply better than Shikhandi. Which was probably why Krishna was constantly urging Arjuna to kill even though the oath belonged to Shikhandi. Arjuna COULD kill Bheeshma but wasn't willing.

When the Pandavas, Upapandavas, Abhimanyu (I believe he was also there), and Shikhandi did a combined attack, death became inevitable for Bheeshma. This is where Bheeshma deciding to stop fighting Arjuna becomes important. His bigotry is well-documented in his own words in Anushasana Parva. He definitely did not want to die to a man he considered a woman. Knowing he was going to die, Bheeshma preferred to die at Arjuna's hands instead of Shikhandi's. Bheeshma's own words about Arjuna's arrows piercing his vitals are proof. Arjuna didn't use any of the special astras. Otherwise, arrows are arrows. Similar to bullets, unless one were to dig them out and examine, it wouldn't be possible to tell the difference for the one dying. Also, if he stayed alive for so long after war, he certainly wasn't struck in ANY vitals. He bled to death over days. He preferred to do so instead it being bandied about a gay man brought him down.

But post war narrative in many citations that you posted comes into play too, if It was Bhishma's wish not to be killed by Shikhandi and Everyone obliged, they won't mention it

If Bhishma wanted Arjuna to kill him and Arjuna did it then there's no confusion

Shikhandi was added to show Bhishma as invincible, His disdain towards LGBT community and preferring death over killing them makes him a hero for THAT time and now too, the narrative is that Bhishma was killed because he didn't want to fight a woman, this particular aspect is celebrated by the masses not criticized

Arjun used celestial weapon on Bhishma, It is mentioned by Sanjaya, in one of the citations I have provided

Pandava army was engaged with Kuru army, They couldn't put all their efforts on Bhishma as they had to stop the whole Kaurava army. Shikhandi is mentioned either in front of Arjuna or shooting arrows on Bhishma

"Besides these, all the Kshatriyas of the Pandava army who followed Dhananjaya, as soon as they approached Bhishma, had to go to Yama's abode. Covering the Pandava host from every side with showers of arrows"

No mention of Shikhandi here

Beholding him thus put forth his prowess, the slayer of Madhu, viz., the son of Devaki, cheerfully addressing Dhananjaya, said, 'There, Bhishma, the son of Santanu, stayeth between the two armies. Slaying him by putting forth thy might, thou mayst win victory. There, at that spot, whence he breaketh our ranks, check him, putting forth thy strength. O lord, none else, save thee, ventureth to bear the arrows of Bhishma.

Again, Krishna is talking to Arjun only, he is not talking about a plan to put Shikhandi before them

Then the king of the Panchalas the valiant Dhrishtaketu, Bhimasena the son of Pandu, Dhrishtadyumna of Prishata's race, the twins (Nakula and Sahadeva), Chekitana, and the five Kaikaya brothers, and the mighty-armed Satyaki and Subhadra's son, and Ghatotkacha, and the (five) sons of Draupadi, and Sikhandin, and the valiant Kuntibhoja, and Susarman, and Virata, these and many other powerful warriors of the Pandava army, afflicted by the shafts of Bhishma, seemed to sink in an ocean of grief, Phalguni, however, rescued them all

This is where I read Bhishma attacking Shikhandi on day 10

Then Sikhandin, taking up a mighty weapon and protected by Kiritin, rushed impetuously towards Bhishma alone. The unvanquished Vibhatsu then, knowing what should be done after what, slew all those that followed Bhishma, and then himself rushed at him. And Satyaki, and Chekitana, and Dhristadyumna of Prishata's race, and Virata, and Drupada, and the twin sons of Madri by Pandu, all protected by that firm bowman (viz., Arjuna) rushed against Bhishma alone in that battle. And Abhimanyu, and the five sons of Draupadi also,with mighty weapons upraised, rushed against Bhishma in battle. All those firm bowmen, unretreating from battle, pierced Bhishma in diverse parts of his body with well-aimed shafts. Disregarding all those shafts, large in number, shot by those foremost of princes belonging to the Pandava host, Bhishma of undepressed soul penetrated into the Pandava ranks.

After being attacked by so many people, He goes inside and kills so many people 🤦‍♀️ its just seems like exaggeration to me, and this is where the whole issue of Shikhandi being feminine comes when he attacked her in above paragraph, he is not feminine, let me quote -

Frequently looking at Sikhandin the prince of the Panchalas with a laugh, he aimed not a single arrow at him, recollecting his femininity. On the other hand, he slew seven great car-warriors belonging to Drupada's division

@bold - If everyone attacked Bhishma together then they outrank him, which is unethical like death of Abhimanyu

Also there's no mention of Dusashan who was protecting Bhishma

When Bhishma decided to stop fighting Arjuna, Pandavas-Upapandavas-Abhimanyu-Satyaki-Dhristadumya are specifically mentioned battling Kauravas who went to attack Arjuna, citation is in the main post

If everyone was attacking him together, he wouldn't have died at Shikhandi's hand, he would have achieved death like Abhimanyu by deciet and unethical means

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Shikhandi is mentioned doing two things and both things have different narratives -

1 Shooting arrows

2 Arjun putting him before himself

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Shooting arrows is important for Shikhandi's oath -

Now my original point was that Pandavas take oath very seriously, Shikhandi is mentioned shooting arrows at Bhishma but he couldn't overpower Bhishma that's where Arjun comes in and incapacitates Bhishma who dies because of arrows

Now whose arrows can't be decided, Shikhandi's oath was more important so everyone accepted that Shikhandi's arrows killed Bhishma

Shikhandi killing Bhishma wouldn't have been mentioned if they didn't want Bhishma to die at hands of someone from LGBT community, they respected Bhishma and would have respected his wish too

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Arjun putting Shikhandi before him -

This is Amba reincarnation theory where Bhishma couldn't attack Shikhandi and Arjuna kills Bhishma by putting Shikhandi ahead of him and he becomes the "Cause" of Bhishma's death

This narrative was given by Bhishma himself, citing feminity of Shikhandi time and again, this makes him a warrior who could be defeated only because he followed his principles

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Shikhandi is not mentioned when Bhishma surrenders, It is Arjuna leading Pandavas when Bhishma fell down from his chariot

If I remove Shikhandi from the picture, nothing changes apart from the narrative that Bhishma died only because he couldn't go against his principles

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My opinion in this is that I don't believe in Amba theory, so the only reason Sanjaya says that Bhishma fell from Arjun's arrows and Dhritrashtra says that he was slain by Shikhandi is because they can't tell whose arrows killed him, and Shikhandi had an oath to uphold so everyone agreed that it was Shikhandi's arrows which killed him

Amba theory was a later interpolation to give divinity to Bhishma

@Nora. Not quoting the whole thing.

1. The # of times Shikhandi is mentioned in the scene is immaterial. We only need to know if he were present in order NOT to rule out his role in killing Bheeshma. We know Shikhandi was present, we know he was firing arrows, and we definitely know they hit Bheeshma as he otherwise didn't need to insist the arrows which hit his VITALS weren't Arjuna's. For ex, how many times is Dusshasana's son mentioned in Abhimanyu vadha parva as opposed to the other warriors? But he was present and did deliver the death blow to Abhimanyu.

2. We also see many instances where characters, including ARJUNA (by implication and twice) and Krishna (bluntly), say Shikhandi killed Bheeshma.

3. We also know Bheeshma was laying the groundwork for excuses in case he died at Shikhandi's hands.

4. We also know there was no way for Bheeshma to recognize whose arrows were sticking out of him in order to claim that Arjuna's struck his vitals.

5. We also know there was no way he WAS struck in any vital organs if he stayed alive that long after.

That's why I concluded Bheeshma realized death was inevitable and decided to put down weapons in front of Arjuna instead. When Krishna agreed Arjuna killed Bheeshma, it was in response to Ganga's lament that her son was killed by Shikhandi. I assume she was just as bigoted, and Krishna was soothing her. When recounting the episode to someone with no skin in the game (ie, Vasudeva), Krishna said the truth. Shikhandi killed Bheeshma. I don't believe either Vyasa or Pandavas obliged Bheeshma in any intentional cover-up. There are far too many instances when characters say Shikhandi did the deed for it to be a cover-up. I think it just got stuck in popular psyche that Arjuna did it because he has been presented as the main hero (though not main protag).

On that note: considering Arjuna was about to give Karna the reprieve requested, and Krishna ordered Arjuna to attack, the 3 main Kaurava commanders were killed by Panchali's maikewaale😆 (yes, I'm considering Krishna one given his foster sister/cousin was married to Drupada).

^^^

There are citations where it is mentioned that Arjuna killed him too, it is mentioned Arjuna defeated him and he surrendered in front of Arjuna, when he fell from his car Arjuna was leading the Pandavas and Shikhandi is not mentioned there so Bhisma surrendering because he feared he would die at Shikandi's hand is not a possibility because he threw the dart at Arjuna, he was coming down to fight with sword after saying that he won't fight with Arjuna

The end scene of Bhishma has everyone from Pandavas to Kaurava and no mention of the person who killed him (Shikandi) but Arjuna is clearly mentioned there

Also, if he surrendered to Arjuna fearing a woman would kill him then it means Arjuna killed him

One more thing is that there's no way to know which arrows killed him so to keep Shikhandi's oath, they decided it was his arrows which killed him

Shikhandi is not shown doing anything heroic, he is shooting here and there, it was Arjuna who defeated Bhishma

The number of times Shikhandi being mentioned is different from Dusashan's son, Abhimanyu was alone fighting one by one so their mentions are limited but Bhishma was fighting with his troops, Shikhandi and Bhishma don't have one on one combat, if Bhishma was ignoring Shikhandi, Arjuna was taking care of Bhishma, what was Dusashana doing?

How come Shikhandi doesn't engage with any one else in Bhishm's side? He is freely shooting here and there without being attacked or being engaged in a combat

Most Importantly, The popular version is Bhishma as an invincible warrior and Shikhandi as the reason of his death, so both Bhishma and Shikhandi come out heroic in the popular Psyche and they show Arjuna using Shikhandi as a human shield, that's why I have said Shikhandi's presence serves Bhishma as the invincible one instead of some one who was defeated by Arjuna

Here Dhristadumya is saying that Arjuna killed Bhishma -

Having slain thy grandsire in battle, thou regardest that act to be righteous. Why then shouldst thou regard it unrighteous in me for my having slain my wretched foe?

Satyaki's reply to this in front of everyone is that Shikhandi was cause of Bhishma's death, They don't say that Arjuna didn't kill Bhishma and it was in front of everyone, even Arjuna was crying listening to this instead of saying that he didn't kill Bhishma

Thou hast charged Partha, that bull among men, with the slaughter of Bhishma. The latter, however, viz., that illustrious personage, himself accomplished his own death. Truly speaking, the uterine brother, (viz., Sikhandin), that foremost of all sinners, was the cause of Bhishma's death. dead

This is why I believe they couldn't decide who killed Bhishma and Shikhandi's oath was the cause of his death

Off topic -

Interesting to note that this happened during Drona Parva, Bhishma is dead by now, so did he really stay alive for 50+ days? The way they are speaking seems he is already dead

Note - I disliked Arjuna (True Story) but somehow I keep batting for him 🤣 now Poor dude doesn't get credit for killing Karna too

@ Nora

There is absolutely no question Arjuna could have killed Bheeshma. He didn't want to.

When everyone said Arjuna killed Bheeshma it was always 1) in front of Bheeshma or 2) in front of his mother. Beyond earshot of these 2, everyone said Shikhandi killed Bheeshma. The Dhrishtadyumna citation is when he was retorting to the charge he killed his teacher. He was basically like: "Oh, yeah? So you killed your grandfather!" Then, Satyaki goes, "No, your BROTHER killed Bheeshma."

😆 Believe it or not, I actually like Arjuna. But fact is that he is given credit where it is not due. Karna's killing WAS actually done by him, but Arjuna would have let Karna also go if it had been up to him. At one point, he was stated as wishing all the regular soldiers would get killed so he didn't have to kill Bheeshma.

O descendant of theBharata lineage! I am not your father, but your father’s father.” These are thewords he used to tell me in my childhood. How can he be killed by me now? Iwish that my soldiers are killed. I cannot fight with that great-souled one. OKrishna!
Which do you think is superior, victory or death?’

Day 9 – (CE – Vol 5, Section 64)

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

@ Nora

There is absolutely no question Arjuna could have killed Bheeshma. He didn't want to.

When everyone said Arjuna killed Bheeshma it was always 1) in front of Bheeshma or 2) in front of his mother. Beyond earshot of these 2, everyone said Shikhandi killed Bheeshma. The Dhrishtadyumna citation is when he was retorting to the charge he killed his teacher. He was basically like: "Oh, yeah? So you killed your grandfather!" Then, Satyaki goes, "No, your BROTHER killed Bheeshma."

😆 Believe it or not, I actually like Arjuna. But fact is that he is given credit where it is not due. Karna's killing WAS actually done by him, but Arjuna would have let Karna also go if it had been up to him. At one point, he was stated as wishing all the regular soldiers would get killed so he didn't have to kill Bheeshma.

O descendant of theBharata lineage! I am not your father, but your father’s father.” These are thewords he used to tell me in my childhood. How can he be killed by me now? Iwish that my soldiers are killed. I cannot fight with that great-souled one. OKrishna!

Which do you think is superior, victory or death?’

Day 9 – (CE – Vol 5, Section 64)

I have already listed it in detail

1 Every citation which states Shikhandi killed Bhishma contains information about Arjuna protecting him

2 The war chapters specifically show the fight was between Arjuna and Bheeshma with Shikhandi shooting here and there

3 There are citations saying Arjuna did it and they are not in front of Bhishma, One can argue that Krishna lied to his mother, Vasus cursed Arjuna (Wistfulness pointed out)

4 During fight with Bhishma there's no mention of Pandavas trying to protect Shikhandi or Kauravas engaging in a fight with him, it is important because Shikhandi is protected by Arjuna who is involved in a battle with Bhishma, Arjuna is engaging with other warriors too (Dusashan etc), it doesn't mention anyone trying to hurt Shikhandi or engaging with him except the part where Shikhandi attacks Bhishma along with other Pandava warriors but in other chapters you will see people engaging in combat with Shikhandi

5 "You killed your grandfather" is a very weird thing to say if Arjuna had no hand in it, if Arjuna's involvement was limited to incapacitating Bhishma so Shikhandi could kill him then Dhrishtadyumna didn't kill Drona on his own, he could have said Pandava brothers killed Drona, why did he say that Arjuna killed Bhishma?

6 Arjuna's reaction was crying, he wouldn't cry if Dhrishtadyumna was lying or saying things in the air, Arjuna started crying because of his guilt, if the statement was not correct or raised abruptly without any reason then Yudhishtira and all would have been confused about it

7 Satyaki didn't say that Shikhandi killed Bhishma, Shikhandi said Bhishma was responsible for his own death and Shikhandi was "Cause" of his death

8 Why didn't Kaurava try to eliminate a warrior who killed their CIC? Drona Parva starts with Karna's entry and karna mentions multiple times that warriors are afraid of Arjuna, not Shikhandi, which is weird if Shikhandi killed their CIC and Arjuna had no hand in it

The reason this point is important is because everyone had already decided to attack Shikhandi -

Therefore, with my whole soul I think that protecting the son of Ganga is our foremost duty. The very wolf may slay the lion left unprotected in the great forest. Let not Ganga's son be slain by Sikhandin like the lion slain by the wolf. Let our maternal uncle Sakuni, and Salya, and Kripa, and Drona, and Vivingsati, carefully protect the son of Ganga. If he is protected, (our) victory is certain.'

This is before or on day 9, It makes sense because 1 Shikhandi had taken the oath to kill Bhishma

2 They thought Bhishma won't attack Shikhandi

You have to keep in mind that there are two versions of the story considering Shikhandi therefore the interpolation/addition will be twice to support these two different stories. Arjuna killing Shikhandi is not a popular version, in fact both Shikhandi and Bhishma version is the popular one as it has divine angle for Bhishma, there must be addition to support this claim too

The quote you have added of Arjuna is way before day, a major incident took place of day 9, here Krishna asked Arjuna to kill Bhishma but Arjuna denies saying he doesn't feel anything good will come after killing his own kinsmen, but he will overthrow Bhishma but he kept fighting to be cautious of not killing Bhishma then -

Then that slayer of hostile heroes, viz., the mighty-armed Vasudeva of Madhu's race beholding that Partha was fighting mildly and that Bhishma was incessantly scattering his arrowy showers in battle

Abandoning then, O sire, Partha's steeds that looked like silver, and filled with wrath, that great lord of Yoga powers jumped down from that great car. Repeatedly roaring like a lion, the mighty Krishna of great energy and immeasurable splendour, the Lord of Universe, with eyes red as copper from rage, and having his bare arms alone for his weapons, rushed towards Bhishma, whip in hand, desirous of slaying him

Seeing Arjuna is not using his strength, Krishna goes down to kill Bhishma himself then -

Then Arjuna his dear friend, filled with sorrow, affectionately addressed Kesava, who was then sighing like a snake and whose eyes were troubled in wrath, saying, 'O thou of mighty arms, stop, O Kesava, it behoveth thee not to make those words false which thou hadst spoken before, viz., I will not fight. O Madhava, people will say that thou art a liar. All this burden resteth upon me. I will slay the grandsire. I swear

This particular event was the difference between day 1-9 and day 10 -

On day 10 -

Sanjaya said, "Arjuna then, O king, beholding the prowess of Bhishma in battle, addressed Sikhandin saying, 'Proceed towards the grandsire. Thou shouldst not entertain the slightest fear of Bhishma today. Even I will throw him down from his excellent car by means of my sharp shafts'. Thus addressed by Partha, Sikhandin, O bull of Bharata's race, having heard those words, rushed at the son of Ganga.

He was very much ready to incapacitate Bhishma, he is not there to take credit for his death, because it was Shikhandi's oath to kill Bheeshma and all of them were trying to fulfill it, that became the cause of Bhishma's death, the conversation between Satyaki and Dhrishtadyumna is an example of this only, that's why I feel it was unanimously decided that Shikhandi's arrows killed Bhishma to complete his oath and make sure Arjuna continues to fight instead of feeling guilty over it

Sequence before and after the event tell the story very clearly

There's nothing to suggest it was heroic battle by Shikhandi, neither event before the war, in day of the war or after the war, the credit is due for defeating Bhishma, if it was as easy as shooting arrows here and there then Shikhandi would have done it on day 1, the difference was in Arjuna from day 1 to day 10 not in Shikhandi

We seem to be going in circles, so posting this again. Conclusion will be up to the reader 😆.

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EVIDENCE THAT BHEESHMA ATTACKED SHIKHANDI

King Yudhishthira then, beholding Sikhandin flying away, having had his weapon cut off by Santanu's son became filled with anger. The high-souled Ajatasatru, angrily addressing Sikhandin in that battle, said these words, 'Thou saidst at that time, in the presence of thy sire, unto me--Even I shall slay Bhishma of high vows with my shafts of the hue of the effulgent sun.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06086.htm

EVIDENCE THAT BHEESHMA NEVER LAY DOWN HIS WEAPONS

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06120.htm

Then Bhishma, whose bows were thus cut off, excited with rage, and licking the corners of his mouth, took up a dart that was capable of riving a hill. In rage he hurled it at Phalguni's car

...

Having listened to these words of the celestials, Santanu's son Bhishma of great ascetic merit rushed out at Vibhatsu, even though he was then being pierced with sharp arrows capable of penetrating through every armour. Then Sikhandin, O king, excited with rage, struck the grandsire of the Bharatas in the chest with nine sharp arrows. The Kuru grandsire Bhishma, however, though struck by him in battle, thus, trembled not, O monarch, but remained unmoved like a mountain during an earthquake. Then Vibhatsu, drawing his bow Gandiva with a laugh, pierced the son of Ganga with five and twenty arrows. And once more, Dhananjaya, with great speed and excited with wrath struck him in every vital part with hundreds of arrows. Thus pierced by others, also with thousands of arrows, the mighty car-warrior Bhishma pierced those others in return with great speed

...

. Saying these words, Bhishma, the valiant son of Santanu, as if for the object of consuming the Pandavas, hurled a dart at Partha. Partha, however, caused that dart to drop down, cutting it into three fragments with three shafts, in the very sight, O Bharata, of all the Kuru heroes of thy army.

EVIDENCE THAT SHIKHANDI KILLED BHEESHMA

Dhritarashtra said, 'Alas, what was the state of (my) warriors, O Sanjaya, when they were deprived of the mighty and god-like Bhishma who had become a Brahmacharin for the sake of his reverend sire? Even then I regarded the Kurus and all the others as slain by the Pandavas when Bhishma, despising the son of Drupada, struck him not. Wretch that I am, also, I hear today of my sire's slaughter. What can be a heavier sorrow than this? My heart assuredly, O Sanjaya, is made of adamant, since it breaketh not into a hundred fragments on hearing of Bhishma's death! Tell me, O thou of excellent vows, what was done by that lion among the Kurus, viz., the victory-desiring Bhishma when he was slain in battle. I cannot at all brook it that Devavrata should be slain in battle. Alas, he that was not slain by Jamadagni's son himself in days of old by means of even his celestial weapons, alas, he hath now been slain by Drupada's son Sikhandin, the prince of Panchala!—

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06121.htm

I came to battle, placing that grandsire of mine, viz., the heroic Bhishma, at our head. Having slain him, Sikhandin, his aspiration fulfilled, stayeth at the very van of all the troops, surrounded by all the Panchalas, covetous of another triumph. 3

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07146.htm

Thou hast charged Partha, that bull among men, with the slaughter of Bhishma. The latter, however, viz., that illustrious personage, himself accomplished his own death. Truly speaking, the uterine brother, (viz., Sikhandin), that foremost of all sinners, was the cause of Bhishma's death. There is none in the world that is more sinful than the sons of the Panchala king. Thy father had created Sikhandin for the destruction of Bhishma. As regards Arjuna, he had only, protected Sikhandin while Sikhandin became the cause of the

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08073.htm

O Partha, it is owing to their having been always protected by thee that Dhrishtadyumna and Shikhandi succeeded in slaying Drona and Bhishma.

...

Encountering him, Shikhandi, protected by thee, slew that tiger among men with his straight shafts. Having obtained thee that art a tiger among men (as his foe), that grandsire is now stretched on a bed of arrows, illustrious Bhishma's death

(This was Krishna to Arjuna)

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08074.htm

Today, slaying Karna in dreadful battle, I will pay off my debt, O Madhava, to the Pancalas with Dhrishtadyumna and Shikhandi!

(Arjuna himself!)

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m07/m07195.htm

"Vasudeva said, 'The feats were highly wonderful that were achieved by those high-souled Kshatriyas. In consequence of their large number, they are incapable of being enumerated in even hundreds of years. I shall however, mention only the foremost of them. Do thou listen, therefore, to me as I mention in brief those feats achieved by the kings of Earth. O thou of godlike splendour. Bhishma of Kuru's race became the generalissimo, having eleven divisions of the Kaurava princes under his command, like Vasava of the celestial forces. 1 Sikhandin of great intelligence, protected by the blessed Arjuna, became the leader of the seven divisions of the sons of Pandu. The battle between the Kurus and the Pandavas (under these leaders) raged for ten days. It was so fierce as to make one's hair stand on its end. Then Sikhandin, in great battle, aided by the wielder of Gandiva, slew, with innumerable arrows, the son of Ganga fighting bravely. Lying on a bed of arrows, Bhishma waited like an ascetic till the sun leaving his southward path entered on his northerly course when that hero gave up his life-breaths.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m14/m14060.htm