Why didn't Krishna participate in Draupadi swayamvar? - Page 5

Originally posted by: NoraSM

1 Can you provide some link or words to hint towards this?

2 What I am trying to understand is that the way it is being mentioned here it seems Krishna actively participated in preparation of Swayamvar like Ladki wala and waited for Pandavas, instead of being one of the guests who attended the Swayamvar, I am just trying to understand the relationship he shared with Panchal and Draupadi

3 Krushna supporting Pandavas is understandable but if Drupad's aim was uniting Panchal with Kurus, I believe Duryodhana would be an easier option because Pandavas had nothing

VYASA wanted Yudhishtira, and Vyasa's word clearly carried the day in Panchal.

If we read the sequence of events: he doesn't tell Pandavas about swayamvara first. He leads them to Ekchakra and leaves. After a long time, they hear about swayamvara from other people, then Vyasa returns.

Conjecture: he went to Panchal to arrange just that. That is why Drupada made the archery contraption to fit Arjuna's skills because he'd already heard Arjuna was alive.

Krishna meets Arjuna for the first time until after the swayamvara.

We need to understand he had connections with BOTH Panchal and Pandavas. Nandagopa's niece, aka Krishna's much older foster sister, was married to Drupada. Ie, technically Panchali was Krishna's niece. Pandavas were his cousins.

As to why VYASA wanted Yudhishtira for the Kuru-Panchal alliance and not Suyodhana: the former was more controllable. Suyodhana would've won the girl and the nation without giving Vyasa any control over how things were run. That he had that control is evident in the fact that Yudhishtira almost never listened to Krishna either. But Vyasa... always!

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Arjun and Krushna were cousins, it's unlikely he didn't meet them before.

If you notice, they already knew about Swayamvar then Vyasa comes to talk only about Draupadi's past life, if you remove this still they were going to Panchal, then Arjun met someone who told him about Sage Dhaumya, That's when they thought they will win the Swayamvar and get the kingdom back, no mention of Draupadi's past life in these pages (Sorry if I missed it), Then they met Bhrahmans who were going to Swayamvar they told them about Swayamvar and said that there's a chance of Draupadi selecting one of them.

I am trying to understand that Drupad, Krushna, Vyasa, Pandavas everyone was involved in this plan, why go for Swayamvar? If the plan was Pandavas winning Swayamvar, why invite all these people who can potentially alter the chance of Pandavas who are dressed as Brahmans winning the Swayamvar? Didn't they leave everything upto destiny and none of the Kshatriya could win the Swayamvar ultimately they had to go for Brahmans? This is huge risk, why would one take this risk?

If you remove Vyasa's visit, (All he did was tell them about her past life and that 5 of them have to marry her, everything goes the same. It's not like it was Vyasa who told them about Swayamvar

Acrually the fact Krishna INTRODUCES himself after swayamvara is a giveaway that he never met them before. Not only that, Balram doesn't recognize them. Also, Kunti never returned to Mathura/Dwaraka after her adoption and even after any of the calamities in her life.

As for Vyasa's part, please read through the links.

They were told by Vyasa to go to Ekchakra. Weeks later, they get to hear about swayamvara and go there for the ALMS, not the girl, though they were tickled at the idea of a gorgeous bride. Vyasa tells them to go win her.

For the Suyodhana part, I made another post in the same thread.

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

Because pandavas were not chilling out in hastinapur waiting for wedding proposal. They were hiding from their murderers. Hence krishna and gang lured them with the Swamyvaar. And vyasa who ofcourse wanted yudhishtra on throne insisted then to go.

1 Why did they have to lure them when they had a spy network, Drupad, Vyasa, Krishna and Pandavas who wanted Yudhishtira +/- Pandavas to marry Draupadi? Drupad arranged a Swayamvar because Krushna told him that Pandavas will be here, he could have gone to a place where Pandavas were to marry Draupadi off to them?

2 Why would Drupad marry his daughter to people who are hiding, not even capable of protecting themselves?

Originally posted by: NoraSM

1 Why did they have to lure them when they had a spy network, Drupad, Vyasa, Krishna and Pandavas who wanted Yudhishtira +/- Pandavas to marry Draupadi? Drupad arranged a Swayamvar because Krushna told him that Pandavas will be here, would have gone to a place where Pandavas were to marry Draupadi off to them?

2 Why would Drupad marry his daughter to people who are hiding, not even capable of protecting themselves?

Because a swayamvara is a political event as much as a wedding. It is the arena where the kings demonstrated who was the mightiest of them all.

In the summary at the beginning, it is clearly stated that Arjuna's fame started with Panchali swayamvara.

With that, the world knew a new power center had formed. In the subsequent imperial campaign, many kingdoms surrendered without a fight. They surely didn't do so because of love for Yudhishtira. They did so because of high chance of losing to the Pandavas.

2. Drupada listened to Vyasa. And Vyasa wanted Yudhishtira for reasons listed in other post.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Because a swayamvara is a political event as much as a wedding. It is the arena where the kings demonstrated who was the mightiest of them all.

In the summary at the beginning, it is clearly stated that Arjuna's fame started with Panchali swayamvara.

With that, the world knew a new power center had formed. In the subsequent imperial campaign, many kingdoms surrendered without a fight. They surely didn't do so because of love for Yudhishtira. They did so because of high chance of losing to the Pandavas.

2. Drupada listened to Vyasa. And Vyasa wanted Yudhishtira for reasons listed in other post.

Replying to all posts here -

@Proneeti has listed events where Krushna met Pandavas before Swayamvar

Vyasa wanted Yudhishtira as King, Yudhishtira and his brothers were hiding, not even capable enough to show their faces and reality but Drupad discarding all this agreed to let Drapaudi marry Pandavas because it benefits Vyasa as Vyasa wanted Yudhishtira as King who would listen to him as opposed to Duryodhana, who didn't listen to him

1 There's a contradiction here, Is Arjun the best archer in the world or someone who had to hide from murderers?

2 What's in it for Drupad? Vyasa benefits and Yudhishtira benefits, what did Drupad get from this alliance, he was king of one of the strongest Kingdoms, He surely wasn't stupid to go in for something which benefitted Yudhishtira and Vyasa. Politically Speaking, it was Drupad's backing through which Yudhishtira went home, At this point, Drupad didn't know there will be a war and Yudhishtira will be a King, He was someone who needed to hide from murderer's, Yudhishtira will be King can't be decided by Vyasa, We are just giving this guy too much power where he is controlling Drupad, Yudhishtira and future

In Swayamvar, Draupadi's brother lists Krushna among people who are there to participate in Swayamvar.

The question is why Krushna didn't participate? If Krushna along with Drupad was directing all this then he was Ladki wala, he was never meant to participate that's what I am trying to understand from the beginning, there's too much contradiction

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Replying to all posts here -

@Proneeti has listed events where Krushna met Pandavas before Swayamvar

Vyasa wanted Yudhishtira as King, Yudhishtira and his brothers were hiding, not even capable enough to show their faces and reality but Drupad discarding all this agreed to let Drapaudi marry Pandavas because it benefits Vyasa as Vyasa wanted Yudhishtira as King who would listen to him as opposed to Duryodhana, who didn't listen to him

1 There's a contradiction here, Is Arjun the best archer in the world or someone who had to hide from murderers?

2 What's in it for Drupad? Vyasa benefits and Yudhishtira benefits, what did Drupad get from this alliance, he was king of one of the strongest Kingdoms, He surely wasn't stupid to go in for something which benefitted Yudhishtira and Vyasa. Politically Speaking, it was Drupad's backing through which Yudhishtira went home, At this point, Drupad didn't know there will be a war and Yudhishtira will be a King, He was someone who needed to hide from murderer's, Yudhishtira will be King can't be decided by Vyasa, We are just giving this guy too much power where he is controlling Drupad, Yudhishtira and future

In Swayamvar, Draupadi's brother lists Krushna among people who are there to participate in Swayamvar.

The question is why Krushna didn't participate? If Krushna along with Drupad was directing all this then he was Ladki wala, he was never meant to participate that's what I am trying to understand from the beginning, there's too much contradiction

The listed times Krishna met Pandavas are not from Mahabharata or Harivamsa. Rather, they're from a text written after Krishna's Godhood was accepted. Even Harivamsa was written after. Going strictly by Mahabharata, they did not meet before.

Moreover, the fact that Krishna introduced himself cannot be discounted. HE was not in disguise. The Pandavas were. They should've recognized him if they met before. Balram not recognizing Pandavas is another piece of evidence. Kunti never returned to Mathura/Dwaraka. From their birth, Pandavas' movements have been described. They never went to either Yadava nation before Arjuna's first visit in exile.

1. Arjuna was an archer, but he also needed the backing of a kingdom and an army and yes, money. One man, whatever the shows depict, cannot build an empire on his own.

2. Kuru and Panchal were the only kingdoms thought to have a right to the imperial throne usurped by Jarasandha. If either kingdom went at it on its own, the other could oppose. They needed to unite to dethrone Jarasandha. Drupada had already seen that he couldn't beat Hastinapuri with Pandavas around. His best chance at having a say over the empire was through a daughter.

PLAN for future is different from foreseeing the future. That Vyasa wanted the alliance and that Vyasa persuaded Drupada are undeniable facts presented in the epic. They wanted to build an empire. The alliance was their best shot at it. None of this means Vyasa KNEW it would happen. Rather, he PLANNED it.

3. Krishna is listed and so are the other Yadavas. If it were only Krishna not participating, any individual motive could be ascribed. But NONE of the Yadavas participated. Forgive me, but I'm not seeing the contradiction here. In no version does he participate.

Pandavas were in disguise. Moreover, they were rumored to be dead. If Krishna recognized them and later introduced himself to them it needs to mean 2 things: One, he knew they were alive which he either got from Vyasa or through his own spies. Two, they'd never met before. Add to that the fact he/Yadavas didn't participate we have Three, they knew what was PLANNED (not preordained).

For whoever asked the Yadava-Panchal alliance question: Kurus and the Panchalas were the ones thought to have a right on the imperial throne. If Yadavas aligned themselves with one or the other, there would've been inevitable clashes. Also, Krishna's Godhood came later. Contemporaneously, he was not well regarded as seen from Shishupal incident. if he tried to build an empire, there would've been too many opponents, including from the same Kurus and perhaps the Panchalas. The best way forward for Krishna was to associate his clan with both which he did beautifully though Panchali. Bit harsh on both of them if there were really any tender feelings. But personal feelings cannot take precedence over the survival of an entire clan.

😆

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

The listed times Krishna met Pandavas are not from Mahabharata or Harivamsa. Rather, they're from a text written after Krishna's Godhood was accepted. Even Harivamsa was written after. Going strictly by Mahabharata, they did not meet before.

Moreover, the fact that Krishna introduced himself cannot be discounted. HE was not in disguise. The Pandavas were. They should've recognized him if they met before. Balram not recognizing Pandavas is another piece of evidence. Kunti never returned to Mathura/Dwaraka. From their birth, Pandavas' movements have been described. They never went to either Yadava nation before Arjuna's first visit in exile.

1. Arjuna was an archer, but he also needed the backing of a kingdom and an army and yes, money. One man, whatever the shows depict, cannot build an empire on his own.

2. Kuru and Panchal were the only kingdoms thought to have a right to the imperial throne usurped by Jarasandha. If either kingdom went at it on its own, the other could oppose. They needed to unite to dethrone Jarasandha. Drupada had already seen that he couldn't beat Hastinapuri with Pandavas around. His best chance at having a say over the empire was through a daughter.

PLAN for future is different from foreseeing the future. That Vyasa wanted the alliance and that Vyasa persuaded Drupada are undeniable facts presented in the epic. They wanted to build an empire. The alliance was their best shot at it. None of this means Vyasa KNEW it would happen. Rather, he PLANNED it.

3. Krishna is listed and so are the other Yadavas. If it were only Krishna not participating, any individual motive could be ascribed. But NONE of the Yadavas participated. Forgive me, but I'm not seeing the contradiction here. In no version does he participate.

Pandavas were in disguise. Moreover, they were rumored to be dead. If Krishna recognized them and later introduced himself to them it needs to mean 2 things: One, he knew they were alive which he either got from Vyasa or through his own spies. Two, they'd never met before. Add to that the fact he/Yadavas didn't participate we have Three, they knew what was PLANNED (not preordained).

For whoever asked the Yadava-Panchal alliance question: Kurus and the Panchalas were the ones thought to have a right on the imperial throne. If Yadavas aligned themselves with one or the other, there would've been inevitable clashes. Also, Krishna's Godhood came later. Contemporaneously, he was not well regarded as seen from Shishupal incident. if he tried to build an empire, there would've been too many opponents, including from the same Kurus and perhaps the Panchalas. The best way forward for Krishna was to associate his clan with both which he did beautifully though Panchali. Bit harsh on both of them if there were really any tender feelings. But personal feelings cannot take precedence over the survival of an entire clan.

Whether Krishna met them before or not, I'd let you and Proneeti figure out, I haven't read enough to form an opinion on this one

What we are discussing is "why didn't Krishna participate?"

What I am trying to understand if he went there for participate like a guest of Panchal or he was involved in this plan of Vyasa and Drupad? If he was involved in this plan then why would he participate? He was from Draupadi's side therefore Ladki wala, that's why I asked if their relationship was presented as a strong bond where he visited both Panchal and Draupadi to reach a conclusion if his not participating had anything to do with his friendship with Draupadi not willing to be one of his wives.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Whether Krishna met them before or not, I'd let you and Proneeti figure out, I haven't read enough to form an opinion on this one

What we are discussing is "why didn't Krishna participate?"

What I am trying to understand if he went there for participate like a guest of Panchal or he was involved in this plan of Vyasa and Drupad? If he was involved in this plan then why would he participate? He was from Draupadi's side therefore Ladki wala, that's why I asked if their relationship was presented as a strong bond where he visited both Panchal and Draupadi to reach a conclusion if his not participating had anything to do with his friendship with Draupadi not willing to be one of his wives.

@PoorabhForever - There was no intent to taunt or anything, @hearmeroar had quoted my post where I had replied to your post stating they were hiding from murderers, that's why I included it in my reply to her

Let's take known factors first

1. He went there as did other yadavas

2. Dhristadyumna lists them as suitors

3. None of them participate in spite of being listed as suitors even BEFORE Arjuna makes his move

4. Krishna recognized. ie, he knew they were alive.

Extrapolations (not conjectures as the following have basis in fact):

1. Krishna had to have known the Pandavas were alive.

2. The only way for him to know was through Vyasa or through his own spies.

3. Either way, the fact he and other Yadavas didn't participate tell us they were likely waiting for Pandavas to make their entry.

4. If Krishna didn't know the plan, he was leaving a lot to chance. Nothing about the man suggests he would've left anything to chance. ie, he planned for Pandavas to win the swayamvara. Since he couldn't make them win without actually bringing them there, we have to assume he knew Vyasa was bringing them there.

5. Drupada clearly at least HOPED Arjuna was alive or he wouldn't have built that contraption. Equally clearly, he didn't recognize the Pandavas in the arena. Now, the swayamvara is mentioned between Vyasa's 2 visits to the Pandavas in exile. One may assume Vyasa wouldn't arrange something major as this without informing the bride's father.

6. Vyasa tells Drupada a story where Arjuna already ran into Panchali when they were in the form of Indra and Sri respectively. She was crying at the time, and he follows her and meets Shiva who gives him the story of 5 Indras. If we take out divinity/reincarnation, Arjuna ran into her while he was still a prince (Indra) and not an exile, and she was whoever she was prior to the adoption which made her Panchali. In that story, Hari (Krishna) is specifically told about the plan. Sri knows as well though this part is not told to Arjuna.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01200.htm

TL; DR: They all knew, but it doesn't look like Pandavas knew the others knew. It was all political.

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Regarding the human element. Krishna's foster cousin was Drupada's wife. I'm going to keep repeating it until people hear me😆. That is probably how he and Panchali knew each other. There is nothing in the text which suggests Krishna wanted to save their friendship by marrying her which would be very weird IMO. Also, given the fact he swears to destroy the universe any time her trauma is mentioned - more than the Pandavas or her brothers, actually - I think his feelings went a little deeper. It's not just me saying it. Many, many writers have come to the same conclusion. Panchali, though, is harder to read. She almost comes across as a man (forgive me for saying this and don't shred my feminist card 😆) in putting duty ahead at all times.

About if Krishna met the Ps before or not: SB clearly mentions that they had, way before the Varnavart incident. However, MB gives us no such clues. Krishna himself appears for the very first time at Drau's swayamvar and not before that.

Here again one more point arises, that MB was the P's story and SB Krishna's so obviously they each get their back story in their "own books" so to speak. And we cannot ignore SB while examining MB timelines and loopholes.

MB's narrative is kinda sketchy. Krishna just accidentally finds the Ps at the most important event of the country and then just goes along with it.

My personal opinion is that we should go by SB at this point. Krishna sending Akroora to "get the lay of the land" in HP makes way more sense and it confirms that Krishna did indeed have a meticulous espionage system and probably he was one directing Vyasa and not the other way around.

The answer to this question will obviously be gained satisfactorily by closely comparing the MB and SB timelines. One very important point to fix here is when exactly did the Ps&Ks and Krishna-Balram finish their education?

Did they graduate together?

If not then how much of a gap was there?

Also, how does the 17/18 sieges of Jarasandh on Mathura exactly line up with the MB timeline (Rangabhoomi and all)?