The Print Article - Indians ignore what was done to Subhadra - Page 2

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

@bold - I think if you read the text, Krishna instructed him for it. Knowing Arjun, if Subhadra was his real love interest (only love at first sight ie attraction is mentioned in text) he could have easily asked for her hand. Krishna suggested it first, he was the one who asked Arjun to abduct her.

Also, I do not think Krishna would have done something of this sort if Subhadra was completely disinterested. I am sure she was not in love with Arjun as she didn't even know him, but I don't particularly think she had a problem with this. However she hardly has dialogues so this is my assumptions based on Arjun and Krishna's deeds and character. I maybe wrong.

However, I still don't think Arjun is to be really blamed alone. If we are talking about abduction of princesses, there are several such instances and we have fo address this point of abduction as a form of marriage as wrong.

Krushna's words - "Vasudeva answered, 'O bull amongst men, self-choice hath been ordained for the marriage of Kshatriyas. But that is doubtful (in its consequences), O Partha, as we do not know this girl's temper and disposition. In the case of Kshatriyas that are brave, a forcible abduction for purposes of marriage is applauded, as the learned have said. Therefore O Arjuna, carry away this my beautiful sister by force, for who knows what she may do at a self-choice.'

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01141.htm

Krushna asks Arjun to take her by force as they don't know her decision, the girl didn't get a chance.

That's what this article is talking about, Krushna and Arjun are heroes therefore they can't do anything wrong

Quote from the article - The problem begins when instead of questioning the epic heroes we start questioning the act of abduction itself. Did Subhadra license it? Why didn’t she scream? Maybe abduction is justified if done by the ‘Hero’?

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

How was the story changed though?

It's written in the article, Quoting full article isn't allowed but it has changed from forceful abduction of Subhadra to Subhadra abducting Arjun, worst part is Krushna acknowledging that his sister may say no to marrying Arjun, therefore take away this little right she had from her

The course of story has changed, Women do not have agency today to refuse marriage then back in those days, she really didn't have any choice but serve her husband.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

@bold - I think if you read the text, Krishna instructed him for it. Knowing Arjun, if Subhadra was his real love interest (only love at first sight ie attraction is mentioned in text) he could have easily asked for her hand. Krishna suggested it first, he was the one who asked Arjun to abduct her.

Also, I do not think Krishna would have done something of this sort if Subhadra was completely disinterested. I am sure she was not in love with Arjun as she didn't even know him, but I don't particularly think she had a problem with this. However she hardly has dialogues so this is my assumptions based on Arjun and Krishna's deeds and character. I maybe wrong.

However, I still don't think Arjun is to be really blamed alone. If we are talking about abduction of princesses, there are several such instances and we have fo address this point of abduction as a form of marriage as wrong.

Abduction as a form of marriage is completely wrong, but I think the point TM wants to make here is that when it is done by Duryodhan, Bhanumati becomes the sufferer and the act becomes bad, when it is by Bheeshm Pitahmah, it's wrong but then he didn't have many other options so it is pardonable, when done by Arjun, it becomes a love story

Why is the same act given three completely different responses

When Krishna married Rukmini, it was not by force. She clearly writes him a letter begging him to take her away so she's not forced into marriage with another. There, Krishna makes a speech about how it's wrong and unethical to force a woman into marriage. I highly doubt the same Krishna, in the same epic, would force his own sister into a marriage not of her own choosing. Krishna always practiced what he preached. He would not make one rule for his wife and another rule for his sister.

My thoughts on this incident are that Krishna uses sarcasm when he convinces Arjuna to abduct Subhadra, because later on when Subhadra approaches Draupadi dressed as a Gopi, she and Arjuna clearly love one another. It was not a case of forced marriage where Subhadra is unhappy. Krishna often used sarcasm to convince Arjuna to do something, as Arjuna was one who had many doubts before taking a decision he felt was unethical. It makes more sense that Krishna would use sarcasm to convince him than that he'd condone forced marriage.

Originally posted by: RamKiSeeta

When Krishna married Rukmini, it was not by force. She clearly writes him a letter begging him to take her away so she's not forced into marriage with another. There, Krishna makes a speech about how it's wrong and unethical to force a woman into marriage. I highly doubt the same Krishna, in the same epic, would force his own sister into a marriage not of her own choosing. Krishna always practiced what he preached. He would not make one rule for his wife and another rule for his sister.

My thoughts on this incident are that Krishna uses sarcasm when he convinces Arjuna to abduct Subhadra, because later on when Subhadra approaches Draupadi dressed as a Gopi, she and Arjuna clearly love one another. It was not a case of forced marriage where Subhadra is unhappy. Krishna often used sarcasm to convince Arjuna to do something, as Arjuna was one who had many doubts before taking a decision he felt was unethical. It makes more sense that Krishna would use sarcasm to convince him than that he'd condone forced marriage.

But if it wasn't for some confusion over the decisions of Subhadra, why was abduction needed at all? He could have simply let the Swayamwar happen and let Subhadra select Arjun(or anyone else she liked)

Originally posted by: RamKiSeeta

When Krishna married Rukmini, it was not by force. She clearly writes him a letter begging him to take her away so she's not forced into marriage with another. There, Krishna makes a speech about how it's wrong and unethical to force a woman into marriage. I highly doubt the same Krishna, in the same epic, would force his own sister into a marriage not of her own choosing. Krishna always practiced what he preached. He would not make one rule for his wife and another rule for his sister.

My thoughts on this incident are that Krishna uses sarcasm when he convinces Arjuna to abduct Subhadra, because later on when Subhadra approaches Draupadi dressed as a Gopi, she and Arjuna clearly love one another. It was not a case of forced marriage where Subhadra is unhappy. Krishna often used sarcasm to convince Arjuna to do something, as Arjuna was one who had many doubts before taking a decision he felt was unethical. It makes more sense that Krishna would use sarcasm to convince him than that he'd condone forced marriage.

Did they show him asking Subhadra later on? Subhadra and Arjun stayed in Dwarika for almost one year before they returned to Indraprastha. Even now women who are forced live with their husbands happily, you'd see victim of domestic violence supporting their husbands. Point being it wasn't her decision, they made sure she doesn't get a chance to take a decision and it wasn't funny

I haven't seen a single Mahabharata version where they show the real event, In both BRC and SP Mahabharata, They show Subhadra abducting Arjuna

This need to cover or manipulate an incident comes from glorification of one character like Karna begging Duryodhan to let go of Draupadi during Dyut Sabha was part of a show glorifying Karna, they don't show real incident thinking it will hurt image of their hero

@NoraSM

Thanks much for the article link! 👍🏼

I find it difficult to stomach the fact that Lord Krishna gave his approval for his sister Subhadra's abduction by Arjun..

All my life, I have grown up reading / listening to the love story of A and S.. 😒

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Krushna's words - "Vasudeva answered, 'O bull amongst men, self-choice hath been ordained for the marriage of Kshatriyas. But that is doubtful (in its consequences), O Partha, as we do not know this girl's temper and disposition. In the case of Kshatriyas that are brave, a forcible abduction for purposes of marriage is applauded, as the learned have said. Therefore O Arjuna, carry away this my beautiful sister by force, for who knows what she may do at a self-choice.'

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01141.htm

Krushna asks Arjun to take her by force as they don't know her decision, the girl didn't get a chance.

That's what this article is talking about, Krushna and Arjun are heroes therefore they can't do anything wrong

Quote from the article - The problem begins when instead of questioning the epic heroes we start questioning the act of abduction itself. Did Subhadra license it? Why didn’t she scream? Maybe abduction is justified if done by the ‘Hero’?

Why didn't Subhadra protest is another question because she didn't even know Arjun, it's natural for her to feel shocked, which is why I more so feel Subhadra already had a hint about it.

And I already said that Krishna told Arjun to do the abduction - forceful meaning abduction.

Also I don't understand what out of this makes abduction justified. If we do question the practice of abduction itself, it doesn't give those who have practiced it a clean chit.

Originally posted by: NoraSM

It's written in the article, Quoting full article isn't allowed but it has changed from forceful abduction of Subhadra to Subhadra abducting Arjun, worst part is Krushna acknowledging that his sister may say no to marrying Arjun, therefore take away this little right she had from her

The course of story has changed, Women do not have agency today to refuse marriage then back in those days, she really didn't have any choice but serve her husband.

Oh all that is folktales honestly. It's the same as how Karna has been changed into a folk hero, how Draupadi's andhe ka putra andha has come in. All these Subhadra abducting Arjun and Arjun Subhadra love story come from tales and anyone who has read the MB will not fall for all this.

About women, yeah I agree women was losing their rights already. However I just want to say it is important to question abduction in general just like we question the practice of child marriage, Sati etc.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

But if it wasn't for some confusion over the decisions of Subhadra, why was abduction needed at all? He could have simply let the Swayamwar happen and let Subhadra select Arjun(or anyone else she liked)

It's not mentioned in KMG but I think Krishna instructed abduction because Balaram would not accept Arjun and also Duryodhan was supposed to marry Subhadra. Or is this also a story created to justify their actions?