The Print Article - Indians ignore what was done to Subhadra - Page 4

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

There is a difference between manipulation anf convincing. Manipulation is something Krishna excels in. This means to convince Subhadra that Arjun is the right choice. Also, unless Subhadra was a rebel like Amba I don't see any reason how she could say no to something her brothers decided for her.

If he could manipulate or convince her as easily, he would have done it and we wouldn't be discussing this. It would have been better for Krushna as all he had to do was manipulate or convince Subhadra to choose Arjun and Balram would have been fine with it. If she had to do something which her brother decides for her that defeats the purpose and right of Swayamvar given to her, What I am trying to say is that when people know they have a certain right, they do it, Krushna was in no position to decide for her as it was the only right given to her and he himself admits that he doesn't know what she will do if given self choice so he takes that away from her. If he could manipulate her, he would have done it rather he asks Arjun to force himself on her.

The thing is that a woman was considered ruined if she was found in compromised position with a man, Once abducted she really didn't have any choice but marry Arjun

One more thing here is that Subhadra was Balram's sister and Krushna's half sister, She lived in Balaram's palace (Not sure about it)

Originally posted by: NoraSM

If he could manipulate or convince her as easily, he would have done it and we wouldn't be discussing this. It would have been better for Krushna as all he had to do was manipulate or convince Subhadra to choose Arjun and Balram would have been fine with it. If she had to do something which her brother decides for her that defeats the purpose and right of Swayamvar given to her, What I am trying to say is that when people know they have a certain right, they do it, Krushna was in no position to decide for her as it was the only right given to her and he himself admits that he doesn't know what she will do if given self choice so he takes that away from her. If he could manipulate her, he would have done it rather he asks Arjun to force himself on her.

The thing is that a woman was considered ruined if she was found in compromised position with a man, Once abducted she really didn't have any choice but marry Arjun

One more thing here is that Subhadra was Balram's sister and Krushna's half sister, She lived in Balaram's palace (Not sure about it)

Yes she was born to Rohini. All together Krishna Balram were 86 siblings. Hence Duryodhan willing to marry Subhadra only for alliance sake doesn't seem possible, even if Subhadra gone, he could have tried other Yadav sister. Balram too could have married his other sister to Duryodhan, because it wasn't that Subhadra was anywhere better than other sisters of Krishna Balram until then (she became one later when her grand son ascended the throne and his great grandson heard the story we know now)

Saying that I don't think it matters much she was as much the sister of Krishna as she was of Balram. Ram ji n Bharatji were half brothers, so were the Pandavas. In fact biologically speaking Nakul Sahdev were not even blood related to the other three, yet their love for each other was no less

Arjuna-Subhadra love story is resent in southern recension. It's not only in folk tales.

However, northern recension bluntly presents it as Krishna persuading Arjuna to abduct her.

One of the things to note is what happens before.

"Vaisampayana said, 'Then Arjuna of immeasurable prowess saw, one after another, all the sacred waters and other holy places that were on the shores of the western ocean. Vibhatsu reached the sacred spot called Prabhasa. When the invisible Arjuna arrived at that sacred and delightful region, the slayer of Madhu (Krishna) heard of it. Madhava soon went there to see his friend, the son of Kunti. Krishna and Arjuna met together and embracing each other enquired after each other's welfare. Those dear friends, who were none else than the Rishis Nara and Narayana of old, sat down. Vasudeva asked Arjuna about his travels, saying, 'Why, O Pandava art thou wandering over the earth, beholding all the sacred waters and other holy places?' Then Arjuna told him everything that had happened. Hearing everything, that mighty hero of Vrishni's race said, 'This is as it should be.'

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01221.htm

Points to remember:

1. FACT: Krishna clearly didn't know why Arjuna was roaming the land. Unlike in Star Plus, no one told Krishna that Arjuna was exiled because of Panchali until the exile in question arrived in Dwaraka.

2. FACT: Arjuna was important to the empire they would eventually build.

3. FACT: A split in the family was not something the Pandavas could afford.

4. FACT: Krishna says later on Arjuna is good husband material

5. FACT: Krishna admits he didn't know what Subhadra would do if left to her own devices.

5. EXTRAPOLATION: Krishna encouraged the abduction for political purposes and rationalized it in his own mind by the thought that Arjuna was a good man.

None of this is to excuse what Krishna did which was certainly against the ethics of time as well. Nor will I attempt to excuse Arjuna though it was within the ethos of the times; he was not an unthinking man and would've known better.

If we go by southern recension, Arjuna-Subhadra was a love story.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Yes she was born to Rohini. All together Krishna Balram were 86 siblings. Hence Duryodhan willing to marry Subhadra only for alliance sake doesn't seem possible, even if Subhadra gone, he could have tried other Yadav sister. Balram too could have married his other sister to Duryodhan, because it wasn't that Subhadra was anywhere better than other sisters of Krishna Balram until then (she became one later when her grand son ascended the throne and his great grandson heard the story we know now)

Saying that I don't think it matters much she was as much the sister of Krishna as she was of Balram. Ram ji n Bharatji were half brothers, so were the Pandavas. In fact biologically speaking Nakul Sahdev were not even blood related to the other three, yet their love for each other was no less

No, I meant she lived with Balaram so both Balaram and Krushna could have tried to manipulate her into marrying people they like and there's no reason for Subhadra to overlook what Balaram is asking as she was living with him like other people you have mentioned lived together.

I am not sure about it though

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Arjuna-Subhadra love story is resent in southern recension. It's not only in folk tales.

However, northern recension bluntly presents it as Krishna persuading Arjuna to abduct her.

One of the things to note is what happens before.

"Vaisampayana said, 'Then Arjuna of immeasurable prowess saw, one after another, all the sacred waters and other holy places that were on the shores of the western ocean. Vibhatsu reached the sacred spot called Prabhasa. When the invisible Arjuna arrived at that sacred and delightful region, the slayer of Madhu (Krishna) heard of it. Madhava soon went there to see his friend, the son of Kunti. Krishna and Arjuna met together and embracing each other enquired after each other's welfare. Those dear friends, who were none else than the Rishis Nara and Narayana of old, sat down. Vasudeva asked Arjuna about his travels, saying, 'Why, O Pandava art thou wandering over the earth, beholding all the sacred waters and other holy places?' Then Arjuna told him everything that had happened. Hearing everything, that mighty hero of Vrishni's race said, 'This is as it should be.'

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01221.htm

Points to remember:

1. FACT: Krishna clearly didn't know why Arjuna was roaming the land. Unlike in Star Plus, no one told Krishna that Arjuna was exiled because of Panchali.

2. FACT: Arjuna was important to the empire they would eventually build.

3. FACT: A split in the family was not something the Pandavas could afford.

4. FACT: Krishna says later on Arjuna is good husband material

5. FACT: Krishna admits he didn't know what Subhadra would do if left to her own devices.

5. EXTRAPOLATION: Krishna encouraged the abduction for political purposes and rationalized it in his own mind by the thought that Arjuna was a good man.

None of this is to excuse what Krishna did which was certainly against the ethics of time as well. Nor will I attempt to excuse Arjuna though it was within the ethos of the times; he was not an unthinking man and would've known better.

If we go by southern recension, Arjuna-Subhadra was a love story.

Which one is correct?

Krushna didn't know about Arjun's exile makes me wonder if he didn't contact Pandavas and Arjun for 12 years or was Arjun's exile only for one year?

The point we are discussing is Krushna acknowledging Subhadra's protest and going ahead with his plan, Arjun was as wrong as other people who abducted women

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Which one is correct?

Who knows?😕 I'm inclined to think northern recension because of the cold political calculation on Krishna's part. Not many interpolaters would dare do that to him without couching it in a hundred excuses.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Who knows?😕 I'm inclined to think northern recension because of the cold political calculation on Krishna's part. Not many interpolaters would dare do that to him without couching it in a hundred excuses.

That makes sense, He is the hero, they wouldn't show him in such a bad light if they couldn't just side track from it or gloss it a bit

Originally posted by: NoraSM

Which one is correct?

Krushna didn't know about Arjun's exile makes me wonder if he didn't contact Pandavas and Arjun for 12 years or was Arjun's exile only for one year?

The point we are discussing is Krushna acknowledging Subhadra's protest and going ahead with his plan, Arjun was as wrong as other people who abducted women

Most likely his exile was just one year.

Krishna's intention was political is a fact. I don't think there's two ways about that. However, he could have let any of the Pandavas marry her, Yudhishthir for instance. She could be Queen. But he chose Arjun because apparently good husband material.

Now, as per citations provided, Krishna is not sure whether Subhadra would at all choose Arjun. All women had the right to choose their husbands via a Swayamvar. However, I am just saying would it not be easy for someone like Krishna to CONVINCE his sister that Arjun is the right choice. (It would still be manipulation because that denies her the right to use her free will). But yet, it would be better than having his own sister abducted by his friend.

I am only saying, I wonder why he didn't go for Option 1 and insisted on abduction. Now we don't know much about Subhadra's character. Maybe he had his doubts that he could not manipulate her or convince Balaram that Arjun is the right choice. And he HAD TO get this marriage to happen - cold ruthless politics.

However again, this does not justify what he did. He took away Subhadra's right to choose and convinced Arjun to abduct her. Interestingly, Subhadra hardly has anything to say even in later times which also makes me wonder probably her voice was supressed lest she destroys Krishna's divine image. This is a move to whitewash KRISHNA, not Arjun because Arjun technically was not legally wrong but definitely morally wrong as he never protested. I would like to believe he was very much interested in this and he too hence grabbed this chance. There is no reason to think Arjun was not willing, so he was at fault too, but Krishna more.

^^^ Krishna could hardly manipulate Balram. Despite being the husband of his sister, Arjun was never dearer to Balram ji than Duryodhan, there is no need to believe that Krishna ji could have manipulated everyone.

This line in the epic clearly indicate that he wasn't sure that he would be able to manipulate her

As I said, I don't buy that Balram ji insisting on the marriage with Duryodhan story since had it been so, Duryodhan would have attempted to marry other Yadav princess and Blaram would have facilitated that