What is the BASIS of GREATness ? - Page 3

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RadhikaS0 thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#21
Abhay

I know we cannot compare Maharana Pratap and Akbar. But some points came to my mind.

If we talk of principles then MP inherited Rajput principles of independence and honor above everything. No doubt he was liberal and tolerant but he ruled over a majorly single culture. His people shared his principles because that was in their blood. So it might have been easier for MP to rally his people around to his cause.

Akbar developed his principles of liberalism and tolerance over many years, out of necessity, to rule an empire that was a melting pot of many cultures. He faced revolts and rebellions from within his own empire and family and had a tougher time trying to marshall everyone to his way.

I do not accept the view that Akbar was powerful and could therefore make people bend to his ideas. Even the most powerful empire in the world cannot stand the fury of its people unless it keeps its people happy. We have numerous examples of the fall of mighty empires when people revolted in our times only.

Also, Akbar's army was a coming together of various units, each of which was loyal only to its own unit commander. There was no discipline nor common fighting technique nor even a common loyalty to the empire. Most soldiers fought for the pay and not the empire. Even the commanders had rivalries and could hardly be credited with looking beyond their own promotions.

This seems to contrast with the army of Mewar which was disciplined and extremely loyal to the kingdom till death. Where a Mughal soldier would have run when his commander fell in battle, a Rajput soldier would fight on till death under similar conditions.

So controlling the army and using it to win a war was that much more difficult for Akbar than it might have been for MP.

So while MP had fewer resources, those few men were more loyal to him than the huge army of Akbar. I would say that MP had an advantage here. Since he spent many years fighting from forests, hills and caves, it was really a boon for him to have small units that could attack and disappear suddenly.

The size of an army is hardly a precondition to success. In fact Humayun lost against Sher Shah Sur though he had a bigger army. And then won back his kingdom with a smaller army. The larger the army, the more difficult it becomes to control it and keep it motivated.

Comparing on these 2 counts, we can see MP's struggle was different and Akbar's different. While MP's struggle for independence from a mightier empire is clearly visible, we have to look and identify Akbar's struggle to deal with a multi-cultural society and its associated problems. The size of the empire only added to Akbar's woes because some far-flung corner of the empire was always burning.

Where Akbar is known widely for his contribution to art, architecture, culture, and literature, thanks to widely available English translations of the history of his times, we know very little about the times of MP, due to lack of English literature on his reign.

MP was born great, Akbar achieved greatness. This perhaps sums it. Both of them had their share of odds to overcome, which they did in their own ways.

While it is easy for us to accept that MP was great because there is no blot on his character, it would be a great injustice to Akbar's greatness if it is attributed to his power and might. Chittor is a blight on Akbar's political graph. So is Ranthambor too and many other battles, including the one against Hemu.

Regarding his dithering stand on Jiziya, some say he reimposed it to pressure the people of Rajputana, while some say that the initial abolition was for 10 years only after which it came into force again.

If we want to, we can put a question mark on every act of Akbar's. His trips to Ajmer, his support for Haj initially and later withdrawal of the support, his changing views on religion, his turning from being a gazi to being almost termed a kafir. Almost every act of Akbar can be viewed as being politically-driven.

Or we can view Akbar's transformation to be genuine and meant for the welfare of his subjects. It is a matter of perspective.

In short, I view both as being great for different reasons. Here there is no need to decide who is greater among the two, just as we don't look at the stars in the night sky with the desire to find out which shines brighter. Just as there is enough space in the firmament for each star to shine to its full glory, so is the case with history.


Abhay, I have only one complaint with this thread. It is assumed that greatness is associated with only Men. What about Great Women in History? Anyone wants to start with this?

ayushimehra thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#22
Hi
i posted my views upper this page balance i will write as a get time.

https://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4363101&PID=122071170&#p122071170
Autumn_Rose thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#23

This thread is gonna be fun to read 😊
Sandhya.A thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#24
Thanks for the link Abhay. Great discussions going on. Here i am copy pasting what i posted in the other thread.
Thanks for sharing the articles. Such narrow minded thinking is pathetic.


Our country has given birth to many precious men and women, rulers who have exhibited heroism and exceptional achievements. Chandragupta Maurya , Harshavardhana, Maharana Pratap, Chand Bibi, Chatrapati Shivaji, Raja RajaChola,Vikramaditya, PrithviRaj Chauhan, Rana Sanga and many more. Each of them were special and heroic in their own way.


But Ashoka and Akbar are accorded the suffix 'Great' due to the scale of their achievements and due to their humility and humanity inspite of such huge achievements. And deservedly so.

The world has seen innumerable scientists whose contributions to science has been special and valuble. But why is Einstein considered the greatest of them all ?

What makes Tulsidas the greatest among Hindi poets? Aren't others' works valuble?

What makes Amitabh's voice the most sought after in India? Why is M.S. Subbulakshmi considered the best Carnatic Singer? Why is the Mona Lisa the most famous painting? Why is Don Bradman and Sachin's cricket hailed? Aren't other's cricket good enough? What makes Shakespeare's plays superior to the rest. What makes Mahatma Gandhi the Father of the nation? Aren't other's patriotism and sacrifice great?

Not that others are not good, but they are extra good, so good that they have beome symbolic and iconic.

Ashoka and Akbar are the greatest among great rulers and warriors of India. Two greatest kings who have ruled India and are called 'The Great'.


And my response to your response.

Completely agree that noone can be called greatest. But some stand out among the greats, stand taller because of the scale and magnitude of their achievements.

Rani Lakshmi Bai , Bhagat Singh and many other freedom fighters are great in their own ways. But what makes Gadhiji stand out among them all?

Gadhiji certaintly has his admirers and critics. He has his positives and many shortcomings and partialities too. But surely it is undeniable that he gave a proper direction to the freedom struggle without which not all the rebellions and sacrifices of all the fighters would have yielded the results.

He had the charisma to pull the common man and unite them in his efforts. He understood the reason why England wished to retain India as a colony. They found it profitable. It provided a big market for the British industries. By the Swadeshi movement he shattered the market. By his non cooperation movement he made India too expensive to handle. That is why the British left. NOT due to any act of bravery by anyone which they could have supressed easily with their supreme weaponry.

Whatever be his personal pluses and negatives, it is to his credit that he understood the core of the problem, the method to solve it, and mobilise the huge public to achieve his plan. That is why he is called the Father of the nation.

Again this is not a question of being greatest, but greater among the greats.
Sandhya.A thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#25

Originally posted by: Kaana

Abhay, here I go on Akbar regarding couple of points you had made.
- Chittor massacre a blot - can we write off saying its a blot? Or can it be justified that he is a devil to one who opposes him? If one does not lay prostrate at his feet, then he is finished??? And killing of 30000 innocents and make a tower of their heads - all this because they did not offer their selves to him? I could never ignore this.
- Akbar was transformed later- the more I think I am beginning to be suspicious. Talking of the same Chittor massacre, this happened after the transformation, should I say 'so to say'? I find these two contradictory.
So I am left wondering about the intent behind all these - was it superficial or to be more precise, convenient? An intelligent king knows well that he needs his subjects support. He would have seen a classic example of this in the case if Maharana. To run such a big empire, it will only make sense to get everyone into the fold. I am not criticising about his religious tolerance and also how he dared to oppose the moulvis (though i feel he was powerful king and could twist things in his favour). But I am left to wonder if there was any selfishness in the veil of transformation? Pilgrimage tax - if my understanding is right, he revoked, then again enforced and later again withdrew. Why? If he 'believed' in it, where was the confusion?
Sorry, if I am being too open here. But this is something I am seeking an answer till date. I find his behaviour contradictory and not justifiable. Can someone please clarify?


Kaana

Surely you are watching CAS. When Varahamihir is captured and he refuses to divulge the truth, Chanakya asks that he be deprived of sleep for days. Give him anything but don't allow him to sleep. He will blabber all answers.

Now is that being cruel? Inhuman? Does it befit a Brahman scholar?

It is not easy to be at the very top and be perfect.You have to take hard decisions with the larger picture in mind.

I am not justifying Chittor. No way. But when political decisions are made for the greater good the intent and uchithness and anuchithness cannot be always questioned.

Maybe Akbar abolished Jaziya as a political strategy. May be he formed friendships to stabilise himself. Even if it was selfishness and part of his plan it is undeniable that his rule saw peace and prosperity and developed brotherhood feelings among his diverse subjects. His rule was called 'RamRajya'. That wipes out the necessity to question the intent.
history_geek thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#26

Originally posted by: Sandhya.A

Thanks for the link Abhay. Great discussions going on. Here i am copy pasting what i posted in the other thread.

Thanks for sharing the articles. Such narrow minded thinking is pathetic.


Our country has given birth to many precious men and women, rulers who have exhibited heroism and exceptional achievements. Chandragupta Maurya , Harshavardhana, Maharana Pratap, Chand Bibi, Chatrapati Shivaji, Raja RajaChola,Vikramaditya, PrithviRaj Chauhan, Rana Sanga and many more. Each of them were special and heroic in their own way.

But Ashoka and Akbar are accorded the suffix 'Great' due to the scale of their achievements and due to their humility and humanity inspite of such huge achievements. And deservedly so.


The world has seen innumerable scientists whose contributions to science has been special and valuble. But why is Einstein considered the greatest of them all ?

What makes Tulsidas the greatest among Hindi poets? Aren't others' works valuble?

What makes Amitabh's voice the most sought after in India? Why is M.S. Subbulakshmi considered the best Carnatic Singer? Why is the Mona Lisa the most famous painting? Why is Don Bradman and Sachin's cricket hailed? Aren't other's cricket good enough? What makes Shakespeare's plays superior to the rest. What makes Mahatma Gandhi the Father of the nation? Aren't other's patriotism and sacrifice great?

Not that others are not good, but they are extra good, so good that they have beome symbolic and iconic.

Ashoka and Akbar are the greatest among great rulers and warriors of India. Two greatest kings who have ruled India and are called 'The Great'.

And my response to your response.

Completely agree that noone can be called greatest. But some stand out among the greats, stand taller because of the scale and magnitude of their achievements.

Rani Lakshmi Bai , Bhagat Singh and many other freedom fighters are great in their own ways. But what makes Gadhiji stand out among them all?

Gadhiji certaintly has his admirers and critics. He has his positives and many shortcomings and partialities too. But surely it is undeniable that he gave a proper direction to the freedom struggle without which not all the rebellions and sacrifices of all the fighters would have yielded the results.

He had the charisma to pull the common man and unite them in his efforts. He understood the reason why England wished to retain India as a colony. They found it profitable. It provided a big market for the British industries. By the Swadeshi movement he shattered the market. By his non cooperation movement he made India too expensive to handle. That is why the British left. NOT due to any act of bravery by anyone which they could have supressed easily with their supreme weaponry.

Whatever be his personal pluses and negatives, it is to his credit that he understood the core of the problem, the method to solve it, and mobilise the huge public to achieve his plan. That is why he is called the Father of the nation.

Again this is not a question of being greatest, but greater among the greats.






For those who are wondering which articles i/Sandhya are talking about here.. We were discussing the few articles making rounds these days which mention a statement by some of our politicians, regarding the GREATness of Maharana Pratap and Akbar.

Copying my OLD response from the thread where we started this discussion..

I am replying only to that part of your comment which i turned blue in color.
Rest of reply i will post later..

Sandhya,

The tag of GREAT(formally/academically) to Akbar and Ashoka was given by the British historians of the Raj. They used his policies mostly.

No one talked about Ashoka till James Princep discovered his edicts in 19th Century. He remained forgotten for 2000 years.

The choice of GREATness also varies from individual to individual, and can be debated and subject to personal choice of a person. :)


We make comparisons when there is a set criteria. We can't compare a 100m race champion with 100m hurdles champion. In short, there are NO predefined CRITERIAs for greatness.

I am not putting down anyone of these rulers here, as i said I can not decide who was GREATest. GREAT i understand but GREATest i hesitate. You might have read many views here itself about GREATness and can see, how different people among us analyze the "GREATness" differently.!

My comment was not related to that minister. I have already said, that it is wrong to compare these people. As much as i admire Akbar, i admire Maha Rana Pratap(MP) also, i admire Raja Raja Chola also, and not to forget KrishnaDeva Raya of Vijayanagar Empire - this empire was for 200+ years.

All these rulers are different and their times are different, their ambitions are different, their resources are different. Still, how can we compare them ?

One of the articles was also dragging MP's name with communalism. I would like to mention Hakim Khan Suri was MP's close friend. He had many Muslims as his friends. Even today if we visit Udaipur, one can not differentiate, seeing the person, who belongs to which religion.

I have already said, these people have nothing to do with religion. Their thinking was beyond such things. It's unfortunate their name is dragged to such lengths. Views of few people, do not mean all are like that.


As Maddy said on the other thread - This is what i too believe. There is no need to pull down anyone to raise others. I am sure you might have read those ONE-SIDED articles from that website - scr*ll.in . The writer there, in order to justify Akbar, had very badly pulled down the Rajputs, demeaning the entire clan. The language was evident and made it clear. Its like a Tit for Tat game. Someone speaks against Akbar, and someone against MP.

I protested there itself. There are many articles making rounds these days, some are degrading Akbar some are for MP and some are for their clans. Why can't people celebrate BOTH of them peacefully.!

I feel, both were "remarkable" in their "own" manner.!

Finally to end i would say, it is distasteful to see people degrading anyone of Akbar or MP. I have protested a lot about this, taking sides of both of them at many places in last few days. What reforms Akbar brought were remarkable. We all know him. Pages can be written.

But, having said this, i would also say that, what MP did was NO MEAN FEAT. Fighting with the MIGHTIEST EMPIRE of your times, with an Emperor who had the ENTIRE Hindustan at his reach and had a never ending BIG army with services of BEST of the generals of Hindustan. MP lived in forests with his family for YEARS together, his small kids and toddlers survived on water and eat bread made of grass instead of the royal food which they deserved being a prince or a princess , and still he fought for his land and did not accept the authority of his "enemy" , he lived and died for his principles and moral aspect of struggle. Not only he fought Akbar, he won almost entire Mewar back from him, except the MAJOR Fort of Chittor.

It was something one really needs a BIG HEART to do it. ~~~~
The WILL of such a MAN can not be measured on the scales of GREATness..

GREAT i understand.
But to say about who was GREATest, i fail here. I really fail to answer this.

Will reply to the other half of your comment later..
Hope more people chip in to give their views in the meantime.

Edited by history_geek - 10 years ago
Kaana thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#27

Originally posted by: Sandhya.A


Kaana

Surely you are watching CAS. When Varahamihir is captured and he refuses to divulge the truth, Chanakya asks that he be deprived of sleep for days. Give him anything but don't allow him to sleep. He will blabber all answers.

Now is that being cruel? Inhuman? Does it befit a Brahman scholar?

It is not easy to be at the very top and be perfect.You have to take hard decisions with the larger picture in mind.

I am not justifying Chittor. No way. But when political decisions are made for the greater good the intent and uchithness and anuchithness cannot be always questioned.

Maybe Akbar abolished Jaziya as a political strategy. May be he formed friendships to stabilise himself. Even if it was selfishness and part of his plan it is undeniable that his rule saw peace and prosperity and developed brotherhood feelings among his diverse subjects. His rule was called 'RamRajya'. That wipes out the necessity to question the intent.

Sands, nice seeing you here. I was missing you so much on an interesting topic posted by Abhay here. Great to see your response and great points indeed, as always 😊
I am not seeing CAS anymore. The Helena and all villains with one bechara Chanakya puhed me out successfully. If its any interesting now, will watch it.
Sands, we both have an open mind and so I will not hestiate to discuss openly with you like with Abhay. As I do not wish to get into arguments which go in the mode of proving oneself right. So, you are a comfort zone for me and here are my thoughts.
Firstly, I see Akbar as great for certain set of qualities, no doubt. I admire him as a great strategist especially. For that matter, he was great to my mother and me (still very great to my mom), till the time I read through the Chittor masaacre details when I started questioning myself.
I am only going by the intent here. I cannot specifically comment on the Varahamihira part, but I share my views in general. Chanakya had a good intent for which the trurth was imperative. So, getting the truth out of the person, who is uncooperative and crucial to achieve a lofty goal, somehow is fine, as the goal is superior here. Why, we see so many instances in Mahabharata where Lord Krishna had to do chal - but all for the singl lofty goal of establishing dharma.
In the case of Akbar, I am fine with him even for his imperialism. It is the king's ways and as Abhay raids etc are general ways those days. The point is Akbar is noted as great not for the size of his kingdon, as Samudragupta had a bigger land mass under him, but for his religious tolerance and praja friendly & well wisher king. His reforms made him tall and apart from others, that too in a day when Moulvis and the lot had their importance and any religion, be it Hinduism or Islam were deep rooted for religious practices. So braving all these is a fet by itself!
However, if Akbar is so noble as depicted, then he would not have allowed the massacre even by his soldiers, let alone ordering one. He might have killed Pratap, if e had captured, because having him alive would be a wrong decision. But killing 30,000 people and making a tower - how could this ever be justified in the case of noble king? This only makes me rethink and conclude, yes, he has certain great qualities, but the basic humaness seem to be lost in him. Also, the intent of all those reforms also now seem as a means to have a Hindu majority country well under his control. Ruling their land, it will only be wise to have their buy in too. And we all know Akbar as a pastmaster when it comes to strategies. This is my rational behind this conclusion w.r.t. to calling him noble or a great king on the grounds stated. As both these qualities could not coexist in my humble view, but they could be co-operated.
Going back to Abhay's post that Chittor massacre is the ony blot in his life - my response was that it was not a blot that could be ignored.
Regarding RamaRajya, the fact of 30000 killing itself is a pointer that it could not have been a Ramarajya. Either it was stated so by his bhakt or one who does not understand the meaning of Ramarajya. Refering to goverance as Ramarjya seem a facny these days. We see so many politicians also refering to regimes like that. Only justice prevailed then, and his praja before Him as Sri Rama's ways. I feel it an insult to Lord Rama when such rajyas are called as Rama Rajya.
ritu_0117 thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#28
Hi abhay🤗 you made post on greatness!!! Awesome post dear!!!
i am quiet late in replying was busy with exams.
I used to think about this many a times but never took it that seriously.
I keep this res for a short time as it requires lot of thinking and at the same i have a very limited knowledge about history.
But it may take time abhay.
Sandhya.A thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#29

Originally posted by: Kaana

Sands, nice seeing you here. I was missing you so much on an interesting topic posted by Abhay here. Great to see your response and great points indeed, as always 😊
I am not seeing CAS anymore. The Helena and all villains with one bechara Chanakya puhed me out successfully. If its any interesting now, will watch it.
Sands, we both have an open mind and so I will not hestiate to discuss openly with you like with Abhay. As I do not wish to get into arguments which go in the mode of proving oneself right. So, you are a comfort zone for me and here are my thoughts.
Firstly, I see Akbar as great for certain set of qualities, no doubt. I admire him as a great strategist especially. For that matter, he was great to my mother and me (still very great to my mom), till the time I read through the Chittor masaacre details when I started questioning myself.
I am only going by the intent here. I cannot specifically comment on the Varahamihira part, but I share my views in general. Chanakya had a good intent for which the trurth was imperative. So, getting the truth out of the person, who is uncooperative and crucial to achieve a lofty goal, somehow is fine, as the goal is superior here. Why, we see so many instances in Mahabharata where Lord Krishna had to do chal - but all for the singl lofty goal of establishing dharma.
In the case of Akbar, I am fine with him even for his imperialism. It is the king's ways and as Abhay raids etc are general ways those days. The point is Akbar is noted as great not for the size of his kingdon, as Samudragupta had a bigger land mass under him, but for his religious tolerance and praja friendly & well wisher king. His reforms made him tall and apart from others, that too in a day when Moulvis and the lot had their importance and any religion, be it Hinduism or Islam were deep rooted for religious practices. So braving all these is a fet by itself!
However, if Akbar is so noble as depicted, then he would not have allowed the massacre even by his soldiers, let alone ordering one. He might have killed Pratap, if e had captured, because having him alive would be a wrong decision. But killing 30,000 people and making a tower - how could this ever be justified in the case of noble king? This only makes me rethink and conclude, yes, he has certain great qualities, but the basic humaness seem to be lost in him. Also, the intent of all those reforms also now seem as a means to have a Hindu majority country well under his control. Ruling their land, it will only be wise to have their buy in too. And we all know Akbar as a pastmaster when it comes to strategies. This is my rational behind this conclusion w.r.t. to calling him noble or a great king on the grounds stated. As both these qualities could not coexist in my humble view, but they could be co-operated.
Going back to Abhay's post that Chittor massacre is the ony blot in his life - my response was that it was not a blot that could be ignored.
Regarding RamaRajya, the fact of 30000 killing itself is a pointer that it could not have been a Ramarajya. Either it was stated so by his bhakt or one who does not understand the meaning of Ramarajya. Refering to goverance as Ramarjya seem a facny these days. We see so many politicians also refering to regimes like that. Only justice prevailed then, and his praja before Him as Sri Rama's ways. I feel it an insult to Lord Rama when such rajyas are called as Rama Rajya.

Kaana

i am sure that you are open to alternate views. Here too i am not justifying Chittor. But weighing it down with the rest of Akbar.

Either he lost his control in a moment of madness. Yudhishtir did in dhyuthkreeda. So did Karna when he called Draupadi a veshya. Akbar let off steam due to the very testing and terrific resistance the brave chaps put up. He set a gruesome example so that no one else will dare to repeat such resistance.

With Chanakya too it is not all about noble intent at every point or decision. His only noble intent was safety of the empire. How je tricked Rakshasa to win is well known. There is always an element of ruthlessness in Chanakya's approach. A clinical perception and planned execution. An Empire cannot be run on nobility alone.

Chittor was probably Akbar's ruthlessness to achieve his goal- unified India and a stable empire. The number 30000 is startling indeed. But this is nothing compared to the loss of lives due to constant wars by the little kings then and the loss of money in the process. Lack of a good governance and instability and constant wars was literally looting the masses. There was peace and prosperity in Akbar's rule.

One Chittor doesn't take away the achievements even if planned or as a strategy. When the larger picture is clear and fine blots here and there hardly matter. Well, my POV.



Kaana thumbnail
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Posted: 10 years ago
#30

Originally posted by: Sandhya.A


<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Kaana</font>

<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">i am sure that you are open to alternate views. Here too i am not justifying Chittor. But weighing it down with the rest of Akbar.</font>

<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Either he lost his control in a moment of madness. Yudhishtir did in dhyuthkreeda. So did Karna when he called Draupadi a veshya. Akbar let off steam due to the very testing and terrific resistance the brave chaps put up. He set a gruesome example so that no one else will dare to repeat such resistance.</font>

<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">With Chanakya too it is not all about noble intent at every point or decision. His only noble intent was safety of the empire. How je tricked Rakshasa to win is well known. There is always an element of ruthlessness in Chanakya's approach. A clinical perception and planned execution. An Empire cannot be run on nobility alone.</font>

<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Chittor was probably Akbar's ruthlessness to achieve his goal- unified India and a stable empire. The number 30000 is startling indeed. But this is nothing compared to the loss of lives due to constant wars by the little kings then and the loss of money in the process. Lack of a good governance and instability and constant wars was literally looting the masses. There was peace and prosperity in Akbar's rule.</font>

<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">One Chittor doesn't take away the achievements even if planned or as a strategy. When the larger picture is clear and fine blots here and there hardly matter. Well, my POV.</font>





Sands thanks for your response. As you had said I am open to alternate views and that is exactly why I genuinely was asking for someone to clarify and convince me.

Sands, somehow I am unable digest it. Even Ottoman Mehmed massacred the civilians when Constantinople fell, but he regretted it. Ashoka regretted Kalinga. That is why I had asked Abhay if there is any record of grievance from Akbar for this cruel act. And unlike any other kings, Akbar stands tall in erecting a tower with the heads of those massacred!

This was a quick response. Will revert on Chanakya, Yudhustira, Karna and deeper thoughts on Akbar. Thanks for the interesting conversation.

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