What is the BASIS of GREATness ?

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MaxMayfield

@MaxMayfield

Trailblazer

+ 4

Posted: 10 years ago

#11

Abhay - great post btw!

My feelings - "greatness" its a very subjective term and at the end of the day, its a choice - how much do we want to believe about a particular historical figure..when nobody has escaped criticism in some form or the other..

the reason is simple, there is no way we will know everything that happened at that point of time in history. How much of what is written can be believed for real? How much of what was real, has not been documented even maybe? How much has been glorified? How much is understated?

In case of MP - he definitely is great for me because he fought to protect his own...he loved his people, his people loved him, he was the leader who emerged from people's vote, maybe that is what is the first mark of democracy...I have read arguments where it is said, that in essence MP only ended up stopping the inevitable - the unification of India or that he fought for his ego..but if that was so and if that meant his people were happier being part of the mughal rule, then m sure they would raised their arms up against him..and also why did the other rulers urge pratap to marry other rajput princesses - if it was hunky dory to send them to akbar instead? is it wrong to protect what is really urs? his people were ready to give away all their wealth to help him fight akbar..he himself lived like an ordinary man foregoing the riches and comforts, if he had joined hands with jalal..

the problem though to substantiate MP's value in our history is that all we really have is some accounts here and there and folklores and poems from rajasthan, the stories that have passed down through ancestors, which maybe filtered, diluted, and some info maybe even lost. So now, the question is how much do we rely on folklores? its a choice - believe or not..that said, doesnt it raise a question that MP could also have got a biography documented on himself - about his greatness or his doings? then according to me, its an admirable quality of his, that he dint want any praises for himself..but just, no strings attached, fought for his right and principles..

akbar definitely reformed and maybe he was the most tolerant amongst all mughals, but I dont think it all happened in the blink of eye..his transformation took time as well..I laud him for atleast trying to be considerate towards all religions, which set a benchmark and was an administrative masterstroke for ruling over various regions peacefully..

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Rashmi81

@Rashmi81

Rocker

Posted: 10 years ago

#12

Hi ,

Abhay what a great post .

Well I came to know many interesting facts about Alexander ,MP and Akbar from your post and for me no doubt they were great men.

I would like to talk about one more person here ,though size of his kingdom was too small as compared to these people but his dreams had no boundaries.For me he wasn't just a great warrior who fought for " Hidnavi swarajya" but he was a brilliant strategist ,a liberal ruler who respected all religions, even in our neighboring country this year on his birth anniversary ,had an article in their local newspaper talking about his tolerance towards all religions .I am talking about Shivaji Maharaj whom we all maharashtrians adore.Here Maharasthrian doesn't mean only marathi but any Indian who has stayed all his life in Maharashtra and knows about him ,loves him.

Ofcourse Akbar was a great Mughal ruler.But after him ,specially during Aurangzeb's reign ,Mughals were different .Many know about the Barbaric acts carried by them in Deccan region.

Shivaji ,a man with a humble beginning and not so formal education went on to become one of the enigmatic kings in our history .

Many think he was just a Hindu King .But all religions were respected under his reign.Not one mosque was touched by his men .

When Aurangzeb imposed jaziya tax on Hindus, Shivaji sent the following message to him

'In this land Muslims, Hindus, Christians and other people have stayed together without any problem. Your own great grandfather Akbar was well known for his tolerance and fairness to all faiths. Your imposing of this tax will lead to terrible hardship for poor people and your empire will not survive. The Quran is God's revelation and it does not make distinction between God's children. In the mosque the Muslims give Azzan while the Hindus ring bells in temples -- what is the difference?'

He was an administrator of par excellence .It can be seen from his establishment of government which is similar to our modern cabinet system of governments with ministers for foreign affairs ,finance and so on.

He treated ladies with outmost respect .This can be seen from the incident of Kalyan's subedar's beautiful DIL being captured and brought to him.But this noble man said that the young lady was like his mother and sent her back with royal treatment.

For me ,a King shouldn't be only a great warrior but a man who understands the need of his subjects and works for their welfare irrespective of their social and cultural background.And Shivaji was one such King.

Edited by Rashmi81 - 10 years ago

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Kaana

@Kaana

Voyager

Posted: 10 years ago

#13

Abhay, here I go on Akbar regarding couple of points you had made.
- Chittor massacre a blot - can we write off saying its a blot? Or can it be justified that he is a devil to one who opposes him? If one does not lay prostrate at his feet, then he is finished??? And killing of 30000 innocents and make a tower of their heads - all this because they did not offer their selves to him? I could never ignore this.
- Akbar was transformed later- the more I think I am beginning to be suspicious. Talking of the same Chittor massacre, this happened after the transformation, should I say 'so to say'? I find these two contradictory.
So I am left wondering about the intent behind all these - was it superficial or to be more precise, convenient? An intelligent king knows well that he needs his subjects support. He would have seen a classic example of this in the case if Maharana. To run such a big empire, it will only make sense to get everyone into the fold. I am not criticising about his religious tolerance and also how he dared to oppose the moulvis (though i feel he was powerful king and could twist things in his favour). But I am left to wonder if there was any selfishness in the veil of transformation? Pilgrimage tax - if my understanding is right, he revoked, then again enforced and later again withdrew. Why? If he 'believed' in it, where was the confusion?
Sorry, if I am being too open here. But this is something I am seeking an answer till date. I find his behaviour contradictory and not justifiable. Can someone please clarify?

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Rashmi81

@Rashmi81

Rocker

Posted: 10 years ago

#14

@Abhay ,

Sorry I just visited the link and I didn't know this was MP forum.I somehow thought I was posting in our forum.I will edit it.

I am so sorry .

Sorry Mods.

Edited by Rashmi81 - 10 years ago

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Kaana

@Kaana

Voyager

Posted: 10 years ago

#15

Originally posted by: Rashmi81
@Abhay ,
Sorry I just visited the link and I didn't know this was MP forum.I somehow thought I was posting in our forum.I will edit it.
I am so sorry .
Sorry Mods.

I am not sure what wrong you have said here:-). It's a very nice post and request you to leave it as here please.

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Kaana

@Kaana

Voyager

Posted: 10 years ago

#16

Originally posted by: Hiral_Halwa
Abhay - great post btw!

My feelings - "greatness" its a very subjective term and at the end of the day, its a choice - how much do we want to believe about a particular historical figure..when nobody has escaped criticism in some form or the other..

the reason is simple, there is no way we will know everything that happened at that point of time in history. How much of what is written can be believed for real? How much of what was real, has not been documented even maybe? How much has been glorified? How much is understated?

In case of MP - he definitely is great for me because he fought to protect his own...he loved his people, his people loved him, he was the leader who emerged from people's vote, maybe that is what is the first mark of democracy...I have read arguments where it is said, that in essence MP only ended up stopping the inevitable - the unification of India or that he fought for his ego..but if that was so and if that meant his people were happier being part of the mughal rule, then m sure they would raised their arms up against him..and also why did the other rulers urge pratap to marry other rajput princesses - if it was hunky dory to send them to akbar instead? is it wrong to protect what is really urs? his people were ready to give away all their wealth to help him fight akbar..he himself lived like an ordinary man foregoing the riches and comforts, if he had joined hands with jalal..

the problem though to substantiate MP's value in our history is that all we really have is some accounts here and there and folklores and poems from rajasthan, the stories that have passed down through ancestors, which maybe filtered, diluted, and some info maybe even lost. So now, the question is how much do we rely on folklores? its a choice - believe or not..that said,doesnt it raise a question thatMP could also have got a biography documented on himself - about his greatness or his doings?then according to me, itsan admirablequality of his, that he dint want any praisesfor himself..but just, no strings attached, fought for his right and principles..

akbar definitely reformed and maybe he was the most tolerant amongst all mughals, but I dont think it all happened in the blink of eye..his transformation took time as well..I laud him for atleast trying to be considerate towards all religions, which set a benchmark and was an administrative masterstroke for ruling over various regions peacefully..

What a lovely post. Thanks friend.

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Rashmi81

@Rashmi81

Rocker

Posted: 10 years ago

#17

Originally posted by: Kaana

I am not sure what wrong you have said here:-). It's a very nice post and request you to leave it as here please.

Thanks dear .I thought this is MP forum and was a bit tensed about DT note for diverting from the topic.

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Ramya

@Ramya_98

Sparkler

+ 7

Posted: 10 years ago

#18

First of all thanks abhay for making this post.I thoroughly enjoyed reading all the posts here.

Coming to greatness, the oxford english dictionary defines 'great' as considerably above average in ability or quality or in other words excellent.I don't want to say that we must go by this meaning but being a reliable source,we must take it into consideration.

I must emphasize that all the men you mentioned in your post are undoubtedly great.However i won't call hitler a great man.

As i already mentioned before in kaana's post both akbar and maharana pratap were great men and they were right on their own fronts.According to what i have read in books about akbar,he was not such a ruthless man as depicted in the serial.Yes,he was cruel in his initial days but later after realising the truth of his foster mother and brother (i.e maham anga and adham khan)& after his marriage with the princess of amber(jodha bai),he was a changed man. He became religiously tolerant and brought about many reforms.The orthodox mullas did'nt like him abolishing jaziya while the hindus were against him abolishing sati & child marriage.But he never looked back and took various steps in favour of his subjects.This is how he earned the title 'akbar'-the people's king.

But he had a certain dream or say,an ambition to rule over the entire hindustan. That is why he attacked chittor and conquered it.In my opinion he did it only to achieve his aim.

On the other hand,for the maharana, akbar was an outsider and he could'nt let him rule over his motherland.He considered him an enemy who had come to conquer his kingdom. More over there was the rajput pride,glory&ideals which he was bound by and he could not submit to an invader.So after the chittor sieze ,he took a terrible oath & he fought for his mathrabhumi till the very end of his days.

Akbar never thought of the maharana as a foe as being shown.In fact, he respected him greatly which is outlined by the following episode.

When the news of the rana's death reached akbar, he expressed his sorrow and rewarded Dursa,the bard of his court for composing the following lines in his praise-

"o pratap,you kept your horses unbranded,your head unbowed,your fame untarnished.You were strong enough to carry on your work against all odds.You never participated in nauroza festival,nor did you mount guard on the imperial presence,down the jharokha darshan. You attained a very high place in this world. On hearing of your death,O pratap, akbar's eyes were dimmed and tongue stuck in his throat."

(source-'yug pourush maharana pratap' by r.k. sharon & s.p. jain.)

Coming to alexander,he was perhaps the most famous and greatest soldier of the ancient world.By the time he died at 33,his vast empire stretched from greece in the west to india in the east.At a young age,he defeated the persian army and became the king of persia.He also invaded india but his exhausted soldiers refused to carry on and he agreed to turn back.He died shortly after his return to persia.All through his life he was proud to be a greek as taught by his teacher the great philosopher aristotle.After his death ,no one was able to keep his empire together!He too, like akbar had an ambition to rule over the entire world.His skills as a warrior were unmatched and it was believed that no one could defeat him.

On the other hand,talking of hitler and going by reliable books,he was an ultimate dictator.He hated jews and had them killed in thousands.He hated women and married just before his death. His aggressive foreign policy is considered to be the primary cause of the second world war.

Edited by crazy-for-praja - 10 years ago

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ayushimehra

@ayushimehra

Rocker

Posted: 10 years ago

#19

res

Hi, Kanna, +Abhay,

Greatness, is a very Deep & vast meaning.or Greatness, is a Path, where, less people walk,
or after walking, they save their name;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;Greatness World. or this journey, have no end,;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;but we can add more greatness things, with our great valuable thoughts some stops their way, acc to their choice, in middle, ;;;;;;;;;;;;because, they feel, its enough for them..This journey, person not travells, he or she will get, Great, title Hunger of doing some insipres them, or they start to do that., but when his or her work, seen by observers, they delightfully give this to That Person.or they DESERVES this👏 👏

But we can't comapre, who is more great. last days we saw, two persons got , Nobel, Prize

Kailash Sathyarti, or Malala, both work is different, but both are great,
or both doing, next to next.maybee their name will be written, Great peoples.

But who not stops, , they work hard, inner & outer world. greatness
world contains in inner, so much deep +vast meaning, we can't bind, him Fix, basis.
& rules.Differnt , cen, different demand, Acc to circumstances, Different work, have to done.

Acc to time, or Which cen, What demands, or Who is capable then, bind the Whole Universe, own country, with their , Meaningful, work, & will try to far away, obstacles, conservative thoughts, which is responsibile, to down a kingdom , down a country. but that person works, without fearing,or astablishes, New Way, which way, that gives Generation, & learns, them, this is also a beautiful way,;;;;;;;;;;;;;Walk on this, this will give you Peace, internally +outerly
or that's your right,;;;;;;;;because God send you here, for living peacefully,(here ques Rise,
Alexender, Akbar etc also did mistakes,;;;;;;;;;But they learnt from mistakes, Not knows Alexender much,;;;;;;;,

But Akbar gave a lot, Akbar combinded two relgions, which is tough in 21 cen,;;;;;;;;This was the Main, thing her personality. Today, how many familes following,
Akbar thinking style, 1 percent.suppose all follow Akbar thinking, so relgion realted problem easily solve,;;;;;;;;;;;;;;but person habit to see Drawbacks. He did this,;;;;;;;Good things, always be acceptable. Bad we should leave.;;so nothing will get.if we recall bad things always.

This will bring in your happiness, freedom of thoughts,or you can live, Life, which gave God you .

But it not means, one's greatness is bigger then, Other,Everybody has its own individual space.Everygem has its own spark.

Titles, also have a great, Meaning, big responsiblites, or Big theme behind that, or which person gets, he or she, did a lot of efforts,;;;;;;;;;Then Titles, Gives, Respect to that person.
or Title getting, is also a tough. Respect of handling Titles, more then tough.

They sure did, precious, Which was very tough then, or their thinking was, able to see, what is, precious that time,

Titles when gets, when you do some, Good, or impo*nant, People feels proud for you, then people or others gives, you,;;;;;;;;;;;;;;for your Good deeds,Great, or Greatness, also a very respectful, Titles,;;;Who got that, sure they are respectable. They gave many time, precious hours, precious thinking,;;;;;;; then, try to invest their energy, first they live Near, then after seeing, good effects, they try to bind, whole kingdom+whole universe.

Here ques is, Alexender, MP, Akbar,;;;;; they great or not. of course They " GREAT"

Blance i will write later.