Take 5: Top 5 countdown for May 12th; note on pg 3 - Page 7

Originally posted by: Mallika-E-Bhais

@Bold: But even Moti refers to herself as Hum. This is called equality. 😆

Originally posted by: divyavm

Hey Anne and others ...

Sorry have not had too much online time today ... First, let me address the points on Jodha and then will post again on Jalal ... I think most of the annoyance with Jalal is because your unhappiness with the Jodha he so adores ... So maybe this will address that to.

I completely agree with you ... In this track, Jodha was egoistic, was not able to admit her mistakes, was cold, and did not show herself to be "gripped in love." You know I have been a critique of Jodha in the track ... And I have never expected a "perfect" heroine and there is no point in comparing her with other heroines- so I sat back for quite a bit time to understand my issues with this track and I feel better so I thought I would share it with you to make you feel better.

So, here were the issues for me :

- The aura of perfection around Jodha

Yes, it is annoying that someone who has faults and does make mistakes have this tone that they can do no wrong- how could he hurt me when I was doing everything for him and perfect. However, this is a common human mistake- when we are hurt, our first defense is that we didn't do anything. Jodha was never good at admitting her mistakes.

So, why was I so annoyed when I never expected Jodha to be perfect? I think it was actually reading all the posts justifying Jodha and how she was pure, selfless, and could no wrong. It made me jerk back and say she was not perfect.

Because if you look at the show, everyone called out Jodha as wrong at some point:

- Bharmal asked if she was the same Jodha who was worried about birds and was showing no concern for Jalal

- Jalal called out her share of the MU

- Jalal, Mainavati, and Shaguni Bai called out her ego

- Jodha herself admitted she made a mistake immediately after but buried it later to justify her hurt; and she herself said she went too far into the ego.

To me, making the mistake is not the issue, but improving from it ... So, now that Jodha is realizing her mistake I feel I can give Jodha the benefit of the doubt till her ego comes in again. She is not going back for her kartavya or feeling pity on Jalal- she is going for herself.

- Jodha did not show the same love that Jalal did

This is where I will say my expectations were off. I thought Jodha was equally in love as Jalal but that is not that case. Jalal knew of his feelings of love since Jodha's vishpaan, Jodha had just acknowledged her feelings were rising for Jalal a few days before his outburst. So, this rising love was easily crushed by Jalal's outburst. That is why we did not see the same love, restlessness, and hurt from Jodha as someone "gripped in love."

And I think it was meant to be that way in this track- as even Mainavati had felt that Jodha was ready to settle in Amer and never go back.

However, if Jodha does not show that love now, that does not mean she will not get there. I am willing to give her the chance.

- Jodha needs people around her to tell her her feelings

I realized this was always Jodha- when did she once openly admit she was jealous of Ben in the Ben track? Moti always completed the sentence for her,

When it comes to expressing feelings other then ghrina and advice, Jodha has always needed others to say it for her. I am not sure if this will change, but I hope she does finally opens up. More on this later.

- The issue of the lost and found with Jalal's heart

First, the basic premise of Jalal saying "I have no heart" is a false one. I never believed it when he said it - so I don't think we should get as worked about every time Jodha makes a comment about his heart as it is just Jodha's perception.

Jalal always had a heart- when he forgave the parents' of the little Rajvanshi boy and cried at Ruq's MC. What Jodha helped Jalal do, is openly recognize this heart and use it to connect with his awaam people.

- Along with the issue of Jodha's lost and found with Jalal's heart and her lack of understanding / empathy and different standards when it comes to Jalal vs. others, I was able to understand it in the following way:

- Since her wedding, Jodha always was always harder on Jalal then anyone else. While she always assumed the best and gave everyone else the benefit of the doubt, she always assumed the worst of Jalal. I think there are two reasons for this: (a) her first image of Jalal as a ruthless and heartless person and (b) her hurt of being forced into this marriage.

- this is why I think she never gave him the benefit of the doubt whether it was his intentions for Sukanya's wedding or her sthree ka lalsa accusation after the Dhakka; Jalal had to do a lot of good things and reforms to get her to recognize his goodness and get over the "Heartless and ruthless" Jalal image she had initially built

- With the outburst, in her hurt, I feel she defaulted back to her "Heartless and ruthless" image of Jalal- which drove her statements like "hope you find your lost heart", "how come I never felt his love" or "since when did he understand the words of the heart and love." Almost like the good, loving one she had grown to love was a mirage.

- That is where I felt over time- seeing him ask forgiveness, forgiving Shivani, and abolishing the pilgrimage tax helped her realize it was not mirage and finally trust the innate goodness in Jalal ... Hence, she realized his heart had awakened from her perception ... In actuality, his heart is the same. For her, the test of the trust was to recognize and trust Jalal's goodness and heart.

- I will still say if Jodha had understood her role in the MU she would have understood Jalal's outburst was driven by the pain of his heart and not lack of heart. However, one does not think the straightest in pain and she is only human. So, that is not an issue.

- I always used to wonder what was holding back Jodha from expressing her love to Jalal and I think there were two things: I think somewhere there was a lurking fear of the "ruthless and heartless Jalal" who was just trying to attain her and second was the forced circumstances of the wedding. Now, that she has recognized and trusts his heart (for I hope the last time) and going back for Jalal on her own will, both these barriers for the epic love story are gone.

That is why when I thought of it ... I did not think that any of Jodha's mistakes were irreversible. Hence, since she is taking the step in the right direction, I am willing to give her a chance and leave behind my issues with this current track. People are usually not on their best behavior when they are hurt.

More on Jalal later ...

Originally posted by: Mallika-E-Bhais

@JA: Let's whack each other.

We still watch ALL THIS TRIPE. 😡

Originally posted by: AJSharma79

Hi Divya,

I didn't think you would agree with everything that was on show in JA. But you know, your post is like field of buttercups in a meadow. And I would have felt like an ogre trampling it if I had put up a first response...in negative!!

Now I share my thoughts.

Again I read the WU first before deciding whether to watch or not. After which, again I decided not to watch.

You pointed that Jalal has immense love for Jodha. I believed that she is the only one that he can possibly fall madly in love with because, from the beginning she was the one who was NEVER impressed with him for being a king. She was not power crazy, or was intending to use his kingly position from some wordly gain. She in fact was the female that could possibly love him unconditionally.

I could understand his attraction, yearning and falling for her hook line and sinker. What I cannot understand is his total lost of control over his faculties when it comes to her. He was positively beaming and could not be contained after hearing news of her return. That is natural. Whether or not she was the reason for the MU, it is irrelevant to him at this point for he cannot see beyond the joy of her return. She truly has now become his light.

But I was so annoyed with him going on and on about how she is the light Agra, he is nothing without her he is what she made him.

I find it hard to believe that she has ever offered nurturing love to him. She has influenced him in many instance i,e, forgiving BB and Shariffuding, abolishing slavery. But the way it was done to me is more like ' Hey dude, see all this? This are wrong. At least I see that its wrong. So you should correct them'

Nurturing love at its best is like how a mother try to wean off a child off its bad habits. She will coax, reason, argue, threaten, then she might even use some tricks. But its never laid as a law. It can never be This is wrong, change it. Because a mother will always have her child in her heart first. Whatever changes she wants in her child it must not be at the cost of the child itself. She can never break the child. Despite all the goodness that she naturally possessed, Jodha was the least nurturing to Jalal. Whatever reforms she coaxed or fought tooth and nail is always at the end like a blaring statement to his face...This is wrong/criminal, you have to change it.

The impact is so subtle because Jalal is a person who is eager to change for good. Anyone can make him do changes, as long as they have a good argument why. Do you remember the little boy who asked him ' you sent both my parents to jail, where do I go'. He made Jalal change his verdict, by simply asking that simple question.

I know you guys say that Jodha has now started to or already have realised her feelings for him. Does she really feel for him is my question? When someone has gripped your heart, and has taken a portion of it, you cannot possibly be away from them even in anger, and be normal. Jodha was WAY TOO normal in Amer.

And the number of people that told her to look at herself properly for she has now feelings for him. What is the need, if she already has feelings for him?She never once retaliated by saying that she knows what she feels for him, but she simply cannot return because her honor was questioned.

That is very different than going around like a battery operated parrot repeating on how he has no heart, how he hurt her and the list goes on.

A wife can be angry with the husband. It even happens when she is totally wrong. That is way of life. But she should never be reminded or revealed that she loves him. Its not America, and she is not Columbus. I would bite the head off someone who tried to explain to me that I do in fact love my husband. I know that. The intensity of the anger is only as much as the love.

But this Jodha has been like a rock, receiving this 'advises' from the love guru of Amer.

And why is she returning? Cos' he proved himself with a heart by forgiving Shivani? Seriously? Did he not have a heart when he begged his awam to pray for your health? Did he not have a heart when he realised your dad and Amer jingbang instead of beheading them for Shivani? Did not have a heart when he was renovating the temple which you visit even when both of you were at loggerhead?

Come on, this ' he has a heart' pronouncement from her totally irks me. It was always there. She was the blind one.And now she is returning because he forgave the two people whom he should not have forgiven? Supporting that type of love convinces her that he has a heart? How stupid is she?

Now you see, what I meant on I didn't want to rain on your parade. I am so angry, especially with Jalal. From a fool in love, he is now becoming an ungrateful king mislead by misplaced love.

Arghh...I need to whack someone

Originally posted by: aashyagh

Y no precap post Trips??😉

Originally posted by: sashashyam

My dear Divya,

I am just crawling back to normal health, which is why I have not been able to read any of your last few feel-gooders. I will just comment on this one and the next, after which, I understand that you packing up for a while.

Hope you are feeling better Aunty! I am winding down ... Doing a weekly instead of daily ...

My Like here is for you, not for the episode. I am not seething as Anne seems to be, but that is because with my advanced years, there also comes a compensatory blessing- a sense of restraint. Nor do I want to be a curmudgeon and spoil your mood.

Thanks Aunty- You will not my spoil my mood at all as I find every one of the faults you do - I just try to distill what I can cheer about.

So let me tell you about the one thing here that I agreed with, completely and enthusiastically.

This is the exquisite Quran Shareef presentation scene. It was absolutely beautiful in both the concept and the execution, especially the overhead shot of all of them, Jalal's begums with half-veiled faces, and Jalal totally absorbed in his ibaadat. Rajat was perfect as a Jalal who sees his vision of sarva dharma samabhava reinforced by this gesture from his Hindu subjects.

Yea, it was great ... And then you noticed what happened after he did his prayer re Jodha Begum 😉

The curious thing about what is called "the soul talk" was that MUZ's rooh did not respond at all to Jalal's highly philosophical statement.

By the way, I was not aware, till I listened to Jalal's rooh last night, that Karva Chauth was celebrated even in the 16th century. Look out for Ekta to do a Karva Chauth for Jodha, a la Karan Johar, but of course at 1/20th of his budget. 😉

But surely Karva Chauth must have come around long since? Maybe it fell during Jodha's ghrina period, and she did not feel like observing it for such a ghrinit jantu! 😉 Now of course all will change and we can have the full KJo works for JaJo!

Oh you trust the CVs to follow any rational calendar- with two holis in between gangaur; i still am not sure their wedding anniversary has passed

As for the rest, if you are interested in a contrary view, you can see my take on page 25 of Adiana's thread, at http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4008706&TPN=25.

Oh definitely will do!

Once again, I really admire your tenacious positivity, though I do suspect that at times you indulge in Procrustean tactics, and fit the facts to your pre-conceived framework!

What is Procustean tactics? To be honest, this is what I do: Watch the episode, note the good and bad, Take deep breaths to exhale the bad , and what remains is the good 😆

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: Mallika-E-Bhais

I don't watch it Ash. I missed today. Or I catch the repeats.

And frankly, I just don't have the will to do them daily. So I'll do them, but not regularly. 😊

Originally posted by: sashashyam

My dearest Anne,

In one word, epatant! The French term conveys far more than superb,or splendid. So just keep it as it is!

Yes, Anne'a post was indeed superb! I don't disagree with any of it.

To Jalal's credit, I would say he was always humble ... He refused praise even in court when he was given a gift ... And said he was his duty. To he honest, I was thankful that he did not tell them to thank Jodha in court. In private ... Let him do whatever he wants.

He can praise Jodha all he wants in private ... I take whatever he says with a grain of salt ... Similar to when he always claimed he had no heart I didn't buy it ... I don't buy it when it says it is because of Jodha he has a heart ... I now call it the "lost and found" with Jalal's heart. It is just he wears his heart literally on his sleeve ... And he takes that very seriously 😉

The part about Jodha and her laundry list of complaints against Jalal is entirely logical and coherent and comprehensive, and you know that I agree with all of it whole heartedly. I myself have repeatedly pointed out much of this ad nauseum.

But what I loved best was your acidic last line: From a fool in love, he is now becoming an ungrateful king misled by misplaced love.

That is exactly what it is. This sort of thing can happen; it does happen,for example,with Maharana Udai Singh and his Lady Macbeth like 3rd queen, Dheerbaiji, with whom he is obsessed. But the writers there do not treat this obsession as if it was manna from Heaven. Not that Jodha is a Dheerbaiji, for there are many truly laudable qualities she does have. But Jalal and the rest are making a goddess out of her, and the hype in this episode was really the limit.

Jalal was at his nadir in his gushing bhashan to the Hamida-Salima Tweedledum-Tweedledee duo. It was unbearable. You would have seen my comments on that in my take on Adiana's thread, but for those here, I will reproduce only an extract:
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Jalal says - and one has to watch Rajat, with his words tumbling one over the other as his tongue struggles to keep pace with his raging enthusiasm and delight, that it was because of Jodha, his biwi (what kind of biwi, whom he does not even dare to touch, not to speak of anything more?) that he has learnt to rule over the hearts of his people (wait till his Muslim subjects start rebelling against his liberal views; Akbar faced such rebellions all his life) and not just over the land.

There is more. Usi ki seekh ki wajah se hum aaj Zille-elahi bane hain ... Khuda ke baad awaam hum par yakeen karti hai...

It was unbelievable. What on earth was he babbling about the Zille-elahi? Every Mughal emperor was considered as a Zille-elahi, or Khuda ki parchaayin, and not just Jalaluddin Muhammad, and certainly not because of any Jodha Begum.

Jalal, my dears, has fully and finally lost it. Rajat does a great job of bringing out Jalal's untamable obsession with Jodha and all that comes in its wake, but it does not make for pleasant watching. It was like seeing the statue of a hero come apart and crumble in front of your eyes.

The precap was the limit. I thought he was going to do a real Majnun, tear his choga, and run full tilt down the road from Amer to Agra, yelling Jodha Begum, Jodha Begum!

Instead, without a thought to spare for how she would feel, he offloads on the desperate Ruqaiya, who is struggling bravely to project a semblance of normalcy, his unbridled delight at Jodha Begum's having deigned to forgive his sangeen gunaah (it is now back to gunaah, and is no longer a galti) and condescend to return to Agra. The only excuse for this rank insensitivity is that wo apna aapa kho baitha hai.
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As for Jodha's sudden awakening to her bahut/adhik prem for Jalal, it is, firstly, in the minds of the viewers who insist on seeing it, and then in the hands of the CVs, who have now, in an instant, thrown a switch, as it were,and then put up a placard: Jodha Begum Shahenshah se bahut/atyadhik/apaar prem karne lageen hain! Bingo, we are all set for the Great Romance. Done deal!

Yes, the transition was sudden like a flip of the switch.

Now the thing that surprised me was it looks like it was meant to be this way ... I found Mainavati's reaction to Jodha's transformation the same ... Before Jodha's change of heart she said "it looks like she is ready to stay in Amer and not go back to Agra" and then after Jodha's change of heart she says "how did this gyaan ki roshni suddenly come" ...

But my dear, do NOT get your blood pressure up over what is , after all, just a show, and not anything exceptional either, as far as the script goes!

Shyamala Aunty

PS: The buttercups, a sea of golden yellow, what a gorgeous simile, my dear! I was reminded of Wordsworth and his dancing daffodils.

And that she would liken my thread to the buttercups ... I was even more grateful!