death of tragic hero karna - Page 2

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RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#11
@TM,
We do have to agree to disagree, because while I like the Starbharat portrayal of Karna's death, it was a completely distorted version and nothing such happened in the epic. It's nice to watch television adaptations of mythological stories, but one needs to read the epic if they want to get a real version of the events. If you don't want a real version and would rather base your view of Karna on BRC, Starbharat or other adaptations, that's your choice and I can't/won't argue against it.

Also, I do not agree that Duryodhan deserved first choice when he came to Krishna for help. See the symbolism of this scene. Duryodhan comes into the room first, sees only one chair available, and goes to sit on the chair near Krishna's head, full of arrogance that he was a King/crown-prince of a renowned kingdom. On the other hand, Arjuna comes into the room, doesn't get himself another chair when he sees that Duryodhan has already occupied the only one, and goes to sit at God's feet with full devotion. God always blesses those that come to him without arrogance or greed. When Krishna opened his eyes, his loving gaze first fell on Arjuna who was at his feet, and he felt his heart warm at the sight of such devotion, so he gave Arjuna first choice. Arjuna deserved it, because he served Krishna his whole life and was always devoted to him. He never questioned Krishna's divinity and had utmost belief in him. Also, Duryodhan wanted the narayani sena in his heart, and Krishna knew that. Duryodhan, being the ignorant man that he was, did not recognize God and instead chose a simple army that was no match for God's divinity. If Duryodhan had truly wanted Krishna, he would have sat at his feet when he entered the room, instead of taking the chair.

Also, your assessment of Lakshman is completely wrong. I'm sorry, but Lakshman never went against Ram's orders. When Ram told him not to use the Brahmastra against Indrajit because it would result in calamity, he revoked it at once without questioning him, even though it ended with him being hit by the shakti. For Lakshman to destroy Indrajit's yagna without Ram's consent is completely unbelievable, because he would never do that. Indrajit's yagna was destroyed with Ram's consent, because the yagna was being done with an unrighteous ambition and God always destroys those who do yagnas and tapas for the wrong reasons. Btw, Lakshman did not attack Indrajit from behind. Lakshman waited outside the cave in which Indrajit was doing tapas. The vaanar sena went inside and destroyed the yagna, and Indrajit came out in anger with his chariot and weapons. That's when he and Lakshman began fighting. There was nothing unethical about the way Indrajit died. I don't really care what RSR or other television adaptations showed. They may or may not have shown the right thing, but in the epic there was nothing unethical about Indrajit's death, and that is what matters.

There were only 2 occasions on which Lakshman disobeyed Ram, that too after going through a lot of moral dilemma.

1) Leaving Sita in Panchavati when Mareech cried out in Ram's voice - that too by Sita's orders since Lakshman never once believed the voice belonged to Ram.

2) Interrupting Ram and Yama Dharmaraja's conversation in the end of Uttara Kanda, because had he not, Durvasa would have cursed all of Ayodhya. This resulted in the end of Lakshman's incarnation.

Lakshman never disobeyed his brother on any other account. Thinking so would be an insult to his ideal character.
Edited by ..RamKiJanaki.. - 11 years ago
Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#12

Originally posted by: ..RamKiJanaki..


I've always disliked calling Karna a "tragic hero", because media has exaggerated the tragedy of his life, when in reality he had a happy life with kind parents and siblings. He had the friendship of Hastinapur's royal family and was gifted a kingdom for free. Yes, he struggled, but his life was not all tragedy. Calling him a "tragic hero" is actually an insult to him.


can you please tell me whose image is not exaggerated by media?
Do you think that the saintly image pandavs have isn't exaggerated?

media exaggerates everything whether its pandavas righteousness of karna's tragedy
Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#13

Originally posted by: ..RamKiJanaki..


Moreover, Karna was not a perfect character. He did have good qualities, and he was a better than Duryodhan in personality, but he was also the one who instigated Duryodhan to disrobe Draupadi by calling her a wh**e who slept with five men at once. He was also one of the six warriors who had disarmed and killed Abhimanyu.


one warrior fighting with many wasn't unusal in the epic

abhimanyu's tragedy was that he was left helpless but one person fighting many was very normal in the war if you want i can give you citations where karna himself fought many warriors at one time
Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#14

Originally posted by: ..RamKiJanaki..


God too used illusion to kill the Kauravas not because they were invincible (who can be invincible for God anyway), but because they deserved it. Remember, Lord Krishna's motto always was "tit for tat" which is basically another term for karma. Those who defeat/kill others using unrighteous means also meet their end the same way, and the Pandavas were simply Krishna's tools to eradicate the world of evil. Bhishma, Dronacharya, Dushashan, Shakuni, Karna and Duryodhan all killed their opponents unethically, so they too met their end in an unethical way. It was their karma playing out. Saying they were invincible is meaningless, because not even Ravan, who was the strongest rakshasa in all the three worlds, was a match for Lord Ram. How could any of the human kings of dwapara yuga be too invincible for Krishna?


Bold- please share citations for this

Krishna ji himself said that its impossible to kill karna as long as he has weapons in his hand and hence when his chariot wheel will get stuck then only arjuna can kill karna.If you want i can share the citation

so yes arjuna couldn't have killed karna in a fair battle nor karna could have killed arjuna in a fair battle


Edited by Sabhayata - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago
#15

Originally posted by: ..RamKiJanaki..


Also, Kunti never asked Karna to spare the other Pandavas and sacrifice himself. She asked him to switch sides and join with his brothers, but Karna told her that was impossible. Still, since she had come to ask him something at sunrise time, he could not deny her completely, so he said he'd spare four of her sons but not Arjuna, and in the end of the war, she would have five sons, whether the fifth be Karna or Arjuna. While Kunti committed mistakes as a mother and did act selfishly at times, she was not that evil that she'd tell Karna to go die and spare his brothers. She was a flawed mother, but she was still a mother who mourned the fact that one of her sons would die.


you are right karna gave that promise to kunti out of goodness of his own heart

but kunti only goes to him for the sake of her sons's not for karna

kunti clearly says that she wants to weaken karna's resolve to fight

again i can share the citations for this
Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#16

Originally posted by: bobbiswas

One point on Karna ...

Yes he gave his Kavach and Kundal knowing that it was Lord Indra. But it was not a donation .. It was a sell (barter system). He asked for Shakti ashtray in exchange. So he sold his kavach and kundal against Shakti ashtray. Pure donation would have made him Mahan. But he just wanted to kill Arjuna knowing that he is his brother and then he hide those facts from Duryodhana, who actually trusted him most. He could actually kill all the other 4 pandavas, but spared them. Now that was something real 'bishwasghatak' to Duryodhana. Since Duryodhana was an evil we all didn't mind what he did.


do you know about suryadev and karna's conversation before indra dev comes for the kavach and kundal?
and when he asked for the shakti karna didnt know arjuna was his brother

karna got shakti in vana parva
Edited by Sabhayata - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago
#17

Originally posted by: bobbiswas

So Karna apart form being abandoned by Kunti never had any hurdle to face, He was a jealous person with sole ambition to prove that he is the best. He became king, knowingly kept on supporting all evil deeds of Duryodhana (never tried to rectify his friend). Told so many bad words to Darupadi and then finally ditched Duryodhana as he gave Kunti promise ...


Great
so in the same context please tell what hardships did pandavas face except for their exile after lakshagarh that wasn't their own doing ?
..Apz.. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#18
Tragic hero is a definition that is to be seen in the literary sense. Tragedy is something of a serious nature capable of invoking Katharsis in people who read/view the drama. It is the fall of a noble character from great heights due to a fatal flaw in his character called Hamartia.

Take examples of Shakespearean tragic heroes. Macbeth,Hamlet,Lear and Othello...They all had fairly good lives. Still they are called tragic heros.

Karna is probably the only character from Indian epic who fits into the bill. Infact even the flaws in him were so noble that it thrusts a greatness upon him ( loyalty and daan) and also had circumstances against him right from his birth. People who read MB as scripture are free to believe in the spiritual side of the epic. But those who read it also as a piece literature tend to empathise with the humane characters of the epic. So for every post on Karna people do not have to go on quoting some translations trying to prove it otherwise.

On a serious note, if anyone questions any thing in the epic, it should not be seen as finding fault with the God. Without questions one never gets answers. Questions lead to answers and then to enlightenment. I truly believe even God acknowledges those who ask questions and gives answers in His own way.
Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#19
For me karna is a tragic hero yes

but not because of the way he died.I do agree karna made mistakes and his death was a punishment for his mistakes so i wont say he was tragic because of his death but because of his life

because all his life he hated and fought against his own brother's because his mother didnt have enough courage to tell the truth

because he fought for a place in the kshatraiya world that was actually his by birth actually there shouldn;'t have been any struggle or ambition .He was a royal by birth yet no one knew

and by the time he did come to know things were too late his whole world changed within few seconds the very people he had sworn to kill turned out to be his brother's that was his tragedy.

and yet he tried to be fair to both his long time friend and new found brother's and ended up losing his life by the very hands of his own brother

so yeah that is tragedy for me
Edited by Sabhayata - 11 years ago
TheWatcher thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#20

Originally posted by: bobbiswas

One point on Karna ...

Yes he gave his Kavach and Kundal knowing that it was Lord Indra. But it was not a donation .. It was a sell (barter system). He asked for Shakti ashtray in exchange. So he sold his kavach and kundal against Shakti ashtray. Pure donation would have made him Mahan. But he just wanted to kill Arjuna knowing that he is his brother and then he hide those facts from Duryodhana, who actually trusted him most. He could actually kill all the other 4 pandavas, but spared them. Now that was something real 'bishwasghatak' to Duryodhana. Since Duryodhana was an evil we all didn't mind what he did.
Why Parashuram cursed him? Because he lied to his guru for getting ashtray sisksha. Parashuram used to hate Khastrias, so he would have never been his teacher (though I wonder why did he trained BHeeshma then !!!!). So again karmaphal.
Yes there was pure injustice with Karna and that was done by Kunti. It was a kind of paap which is beyond any mercy. But pandavas should not pay for this. They were not at fault.
Now Arjuna killing Karna when he was weaponless ... So form which angle it became rule that only Pandavas need to follow all process?
Remember this same Karna was part of killing weaponless Abhimanyu ... a young brave kid ... killed by so called 6 Maharathis when he was weaponless. So this was his Karmaphal.
One thing which Starbharat showed, but not part of original MB was the Thakshak stuff. No Karna never asked Takshak to help him kill Arjuna. It was Ashwashen, Thakshak's son, who without telling Karna entered his arrow. Next time again he wanted to enter his arrow but that time Karna straight away refused and he went to killed Arjuna on his own, when Arjuna killed Ashwashen.
So Karna apart form being abandoned by Kunti never had any hurdle to face, He was a jealous person with sole ambition to prove that he is the best. He became king, knowingly kept on supporting all evil deeds of Duryodhana (never tried to rectify his friend). Told so many bad words to Darupadi and then finally ditched Duryodhana as he gave Kunti promise ...



It was Suryadev himself who ordered Karna to ask for Shakti, Karna was willing to give his Kavach without even asking.

Below is Karna speaking to Surya,

"..'O thou that are possessed of the wealth of effulgence, the whole world knoweth this to be my vow that, of averity, I am prepared to give away life itself unto superior Brahmanas! If, O best of all rangers of the sky, Sakra cometh to me, disguised as a Brahmana, to beg for the benefit of the sons of Pandu, I will, Ochief of the celestials, give him the ear-rings and the excellent mail.'.."

Karna declined Surya twice and repeatdely said that he would even his life if asked for. Below is Surya requesting Karna to ask for Shakti at-least. Surya even told Karna what to speak if Indra asks him Kavach and Kundal.

"..Surya said, 'If O son, thou givest away thy ear-rings to the wielder of the thunder-bolt, O thou of
mighty strength, thou shouldst also, for the purpose of securing victory, speak unto him, saying,--O thou of a hundred sacrifices, I shall give thee ear-rings under a condition.--Furnished with the ear-rings, thou art certainly incapable of being slain by any being. Therefore, it is, O son, that desirous of beholding thee slain in battle by Arjuna, the destroyer of the Danavas desireth to deprive thee of thy ear-rings. Repeatedly adoring with truthful words that lord of the celestials, viz., Purandara armed with weapons incapable of being frustrated, do thou also beseech him, saying, 'Give me an infallible dart capable of slaying all foes, and I will, O thousand-eyed deity, give the ear-rings with the excellent coat of mail!' On this condition shouldst thou give the ear-rings unto Sakra. With that dart, O Karna, thou wilt slay foes in battle: for, O mighty-armed one, that dart of the chief of the celestials doth not return to the hand that hurleth it, without slaying enemies by hundreds and by thousands!'.."


Karna only did two things at Abhi's death - he cut off his bow fairly and broke his sheild.

Yes getting a Guru who is parrtial to his son and Arjuna is no hurdle at all, and getting refused Brahmastra and other divine weapons was no hurdle along with getting insulted in Rangbhoomi. Your definition of 'hurdles' do not match that of dictionary.

Being a participant unwillingly is different, Karna was never very happy of Duryodhan's schemes, in fact Karna told Duryodhan to stop his deceit and evil deeds. Ask for a citation - you will get one.



Edited by TheWatcher - 11 years ago

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