Inconsistencies, contradictions within the Mahabharata. - Page 2

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...Diala... thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#11
I dont take this argument of Abhimanyu being born before Khandavadhahan.. IMO his birth was something like a conclusion of Subhadraharan.. along with that was mentioned Draupadi's sons as a conclusion..

KD should be taken as a fresh new chapter as you would see that the poem begins with Pandavas accepting the barren land from Dhridrashtra..
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#12

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

The logical possibility of Abhimanyu being 33 year is very high, he was born before Khandav- Dahan and Arjuna carried Gaandeev for 33 Years so that makes Abhimanyu 33 years, this is logical, him being 16 is not, no citation say that he fought when he was 16.


Arjuna carried Gandiva even after the war, while Yudhisthir was ruling Hastinapura. He returned it to Varuna right before going to swarga loka. So if Arjuna carried the Gandiva for a total of 33 years, it's pretty logical that he had it for 16 years until Abhimanyu's death, and 17 years afterwards.

Moreover, Abhimanyu was born at the end of Khandavadahan, and right after that Yudhisthir decided to perform the Rajasuya yagna, the Pandava brothers vanquished all the Kings, Rajasuya was conducted, and Duryodhan invited the Pandavas for a game of dice.

Even if Abhimanyu was born before Khandavadahan, I don't see how 33 years passed before the war. The exile itself was 13 years only, so where did the other 20 years pass?
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#13
16 years for Lord Somas won't be the same as 16 years on earth. 16 years for Lord Somas would be 16 years in the heavens - either w/ Mahadev, or in Devalok. Not on earth.
The 33 year mention for Arjun's possessing the Gandhiva seems to be the point of the war, not the time when he returned it to Varuna. Although Abhimanyu could have been born some time after Arjun returned w/ Subhadra to Indraprastha, not during the Khandava Dahan.

Also, the Pandavas did rule Indraprastha for some 36 years. So if 13 years into their reign, Subhadra gave birth to him, he'd have 20 years of upbringing in Indraprastha, and the last 13 years in Dwarka, b4 he got killed in the war. You are assuming that the game of dice happened just 3 years after the Pandavas built Indraprastha, but their reign in both Indraprastha and Hastinapur were 36 years each
Edited by .Vrish. - 11 years ago
Ashwini_D thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#14
None of the citations that people have posted indicate Abhimanyu's actual age at the time of war. Being minor in the Dwapar Yug could mean something different, we have no substantial reason to assume that 16 or 18 was the age when somebody became an adult. Since the word minor has been used, it would be helpful to check the original Sanskrit text and verify it, if somebody knows Sanskrit. For all we know, the age of reaching adulthood might have been different when K.M.G did his translation.
Also, didn't people from the Dwapar Yug live far longer than present day humans? It sounds scientifically unsound, but if the above is assumed then it would make more sense to set a higher age for reaching adulthood using this reasoning as well.
bheegi thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#15
@Ashwini, I'm posting a citation from CE (although you are discussing KMG here)

This is Sanjaya narrating Abhimanyu's death to Dhrit:

On seeing him fallen down on the ground, those on your side were supremely delighted. The Pandus were distressed. O king! Abhimanyu was still a child and had not yet attained youth. But he was killed.

Here is Yudi lamenting Abhi's death: He was only a child. But we placed him at the forefront of the warriors.




Debroy, Bibek (2012-11-15). Mahabharata Vol. 6 (Penguin Translated Texts) (p. 42). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.
Edited by bheegi - 11 years ago
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#16
The term 'child' was very loosely used in those times, and used to refer to sons/daughters/nephews/nieces, irrespective of age. In fact, even fully grown men like Yudhistir were regarded as children: those were exactly the sentiments w/ which Kunti approached Karna.

Ultimately, it hinges on how long the Pandavas actually ruled Indraprastha. Most serials shorten it to simply the creation of Indraprastha, the killing of Jarasandha, the Rajasuya yagna and then the game of dice. But in reality, all these events were very well spaced out, and Yudisthir is on record as ruling Indraprastha for 36 years - coincidentally the same duration for which he ruled Hastinapur. Out of that, Arjun's exile - depending on how one reads it - may have been either 12 months or years, which would take that out of the picture. That leaves 24 years of marriage to Subhadra in Indraprastha, and chances are more likely than not that within a few years of bringing her to Indraprastha, they had Abhimanyu, while Draupadi probably already had at least 2 of her 5 sons.

There is no way they could have put such young children to war, and that too, children who knew all the mantras to various divyastras. Even if one buys that Krishna could have done it, it's harder to digest that at 16, Abhimanyu could achieve feats like defeat Alambusha in battle, kill several warriors of Madra, as well as Brihadbala & Laxman, confront Bheeshma and so on. It is easier to digest if one assumes that he was in his late teens when the exile started, and did his higher studies in warfare in Dwarka
Edited by .Vrish. - 11 years ago
TheWatcher thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#17
Abhimanyu was before Khandav-Dahan not after it.

And Dhritashtra telling the duration of 33 years is before the war. Hence Abhimanyu is 33+ years old.

The CE citation itself does not mention the 16 yr old thing, a child has been used but it does not clearly say anything, as I said - Abhimanyu would still be a child against people who are aged 70-100
Edited by TheWatcher - 11 years ago
bheegi thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#18

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

Abhimanyu was before Khandav-Dahan not after it.

And Dhritashtra telling the duration of 33 years is before the war. Hence Abhimanyu is 33+ years old.

The CE citation itself does not mention the 16 yr old thing, a child has been used but it does not clearly say anything, as I said - Abhimanyu would still be a child against people who are aged 70-10
0


I agree, CE doesn't mention age, but if child is 33+ then what's youth? Because it says he hasn't even attained his youth. It seems far fetched to me that a child is 30-40 and youth is 50-60😕
997935 thumbnail
Posted: 11 years ago
#19
So guys this is the Mahabharat Timeline. Wanted to post in the morning itself, but had some work...

MAHABHARAT EVENTS

Mahabharat events preceded the Kaliyug:

    1. Karna's Birth : Magha Bright half 1st day. It is said that he was older than Yudhisthira by 16 years.

    2. Emperor Pandu reached Mount Saptashrunga in Paramodoota Ashwin Bright 5th day. Just one year after Yudhisthira was born.

    3. Yudhisthira's Birth : Yudhisthira was born on Pajothpatti Ashwin Bright 5th day, in Jyeshta Star, in Sagittarius Lagna, at midday Abhijit Muhurta. That was just years. 127-5-25 prior to Kaliyug (roughly 3229-8-15 B.C)

    4. Bhima's Birth : Bhima was born on Agnirasa Ashwin dark 9th day in Magha Star, after midday. He was younger than Yudhishtira by 1 year and 19 days.

    5. Arjun's Birth : Srimukha Phalguna Full Moon Day during the day in Uttara Star. Younger than Bhima by yr. 1-4-21

    6. Nakula and Sahadev's Birth : Bhava Phalguna New Moon day, Midday, in Star Ashwini. Younger than Arjuna by yr. 1-0-15

    7. Lord Krishna was born on Shrimukha Shravana Dark 8th day, just after midnight in Taurus Lagna.

    8. Duryodhana's Birth : Just one day after Bhima's birth. From that day onwards everyday the rest 99 Kauravas and their sister were born. Similarly, Hidimba, Baka and Kichaka were born in the same period between Magha and Swati Stars.

    9. Emperor Pandu expired on Sarvadhari Chaitra Bright 12th day in Uttara Star. Arjuna was then yrs. 14-0-7 days old. Yudhistira was then yrs. 16-6-7 years old.

    10. Pandavas were brought in Hastina on Sarvadhari Chaitra Dark 13th day, that is, 16 days after their father's death. Death rituals lasted for 12 days from Sarvadhari Chaitra Dark 13th day to Vaishakh Bright 10th day. Yudhisthira was 16 years, 6 months and 28 days of age.

    11. Pandavas stayed in Hastinapur for 13 years from Sarvadhari Vaishakha Bright 10th day to Plava Vaishakha Bright 10th day. Yudhisthira was yrs. 29-6-23 days old. They learnt archery under Drona.

    12. Archery exhibition : Plava Vaishakha Full Moon Day.

    13. King Drupada taken captive : Fight with Drupada from Plava Vaishakha Dark 5th day for a period of of yr. 1-4-5 days, that is upto Shubhakrit Bhadrapada Bright 10th day. Yudhisthira was yrs. 31-0-5 days old.

    14. Yudhishthira ws made Crown-Prince on Shubhakrit Ashwayuja Bright 10th day when he was 31-0-5 days old.

    15. Pandavas stayed at Hastinapur for yrs. 5-4-20 days, upto Plavanga Maagha New Moon Day. Yudhishthira was yrs. 36-4-25 days old.

    16. Entered Varnavrata : Plavanga Phalguna Bright 8th Day. Yudhishtir was yrs. 36-5-3 days old.

    17. The Lac Palace was set on fire on Keelaka Phalguna 13/14th Day night in the third Jhamu or Quarter. ( A day consists of 8 prahars, 4 during day time and 4 during night.) Pandavas crossed river Ganga on Keelaka Phalguna New Moon Day morning.

    18. Demon Hidimba was slain : on Sowmya Chaitra Bright 1st Day. 19. Ghatotkacha was born on Sowmya Ashwin Bright 2nd Day, and he grew up as an adult immediately.

    20. Pandavas stayed in Salihotashramam for 6 months, that is from Sowmya Ashwayuja Bright 2nd Day to Sadharana Chaitra Bright 2nd Day. Yudhishtira was yrs. 38-5-7 days old.

    21. Panadavas lived in Ekachakrapuram for 6 months from Sadharana Chaitra Bright 2nd Day to Ashwayuja Bright 2nd Day.

    22. Demon Baka was slain : on Sadharana Bright 10th Day. Yudhisthira was yrs. 39-0-5 days old.

    23. Pandavas stayed in Ekachakrapuram for 1 month 10 days more, upto Sadharana Margashirsha Dark 5th Day. Then they headed for Panchal Kingdom, and in 3 days reached Dhoumya's Ashram. They stayed there for 15 days, and on the 18th day, reached the capital of Panchal Kingdom, that is, on Sadharana Pausha 7th Day.

    24. Princess Draupadi's Swayamvaram took place on Sadhrana Pausha Bright 10th Day.

    25. In Panchala Kingdom, Pandavas stayed there for yr. 1-0-15 days, that is, tiil Virodhikrithu Pausha New Moon Day. Yudhishthir was yrs. 40-3-25 days old.

    26. Pandavas were recieved in Hastinapur on Virodhikrithu Maagha Bright 2nd Day and were granted half-Kingdom. They stayed in Hastinapur for 5 years and 6 months, upto Pingala Shravana Bright 2nd Day. Yudhishthira was yrs. 45-9-27 days old. Indrapratha City was being built during this period.

    27. Yudhisthira was coronated on Pingala Ashwayuja Bright 10th Day. He was then 46-0 years old.

    28. Arjuna went on pilgrimage for 12 years. He started in Kalayukthi and returned in Pramodhoota. He married Subhadra on Pramodhoota Vaishakh Bright 10th Day. Abhimanya was born in the year Pramodhoota.

    29. Draupadi had one son each from her 5 Pandava husbands. 30. The Khandava Forest was burnt down after Pramodhoota Shravana Bright 2nd Day. Yudhishtira was yrs. 58-10-15 days old. Mayasabha took yrs. 1-2-0 days for construction.

    31.Panadavas entered Mayasabha on Prajopatthi Ashwayuja Bright 10th Day. Yudhisthira was years 60-0-5 days old.

    32. Rule in Indraprastha for 16 years, upto Sarvajit Ashwayuja Bright 10th day. Yudhishthira was yrs. 76-0-5 days old.

    33. Wrestling started between Bhima and Jarasandha on Sarvajit Kartika Bright 2nd Day. It continued for 14 days, and Jarasandha was killed on 14th evening.

    34. The Rajasooya Yadnya began on Sarvadhari Chaitra Full Moon Day. Yudhisthira was yrs. 76-6-15 days old.

    35. Dice plays : The two Dice plays were played between Sarvadhari Shravana Dark 3rd Day and 7th Day. Yudhishthira was yrs. 76-10-2 days old.

    So Pandavas ruled for a period of yrs. 36-6-20 days from Virodhikritu Maagha Bright 2nd Day to Sarvadhari Shravana Dark 7th Day.

    36. Forest Life : Forest life started on Sarvadhari Shravana Dark 8th Day. Yudhisthira was years 76-10-18 days old. Demon Kimeera was killed on the 3rd Day, that is, Dark 10th Day.

    12 years forest exile ended on Sarvari Shravan Dark 7th Day.

    37. The 13th year of anonimity ended on the Plava Shravan Dark 7th Day.

    38. Kichaka was killed on on Plava Ashadha Dark 8th Day at night. His brothers were killed the next day, Dark 9th Day.

    39. Since these are lunar years, there were two Adhik Masas every 5 years, and in 13 years there were 5 Adhik Mases and 12 days. But these were merged in the lunar years as Adhik Mases. Tithiwayas and likewise, Bhishma and Yudhishthira followed this calculation as correct, but Duryodhana insisted on anonimity solar years, which was unacceptable in those days.

    40. Since the period was over the previous day, Arjuna declared his identity. Arjuna was carrying his bow Gandiva for 30 years from Pramodoota to Sarvari, and he told Uttara that he will carry it for another 35 years. The next day, on Dark 9th Day, Pandavas declared their identity. Yudhishthira was yrs. 89-10-9 days old.

    41. Pandavas stayed in Upaplavyam for yr. 1-2-17 days. During these days, consultations, marraige between Uttara and Abhimanyu in Shubhakrit Jyeshta month, marshalling of armies, Peace talks by Draupadi's Purohit and Sanjaya took place.

    In Aswayuja month, there were lunar and solar eclipses, portending evil and destruction.

    42. Shri Krishna's Peace talks : Shri Krishna started on Shubhakrit Kartik Bright 2nd Day, in Revati Star, reached Hastinapur on the 13th Day, and held peace talks upto Dark 8th Day. On his last day, His Vishwaroopa was shown. Since talks failed, he started on his return journey the same day in Pushyami Star, told Karna that in 7 days, on New Moon Day in Jyeshta Star, all should assemble at Kurukshetra for the Great War, and returned to Upaplavya.

    43. So Pandavas stayed in Upaplavya for yr. 1-2-17 + 15 days = yr. 1-3-2 days.

    44. Both the Pandava and Kaurava armies marched to Kurukshetra on the New Moon Day. The period from Margashirsha Bright 2nd Day to 12th Day, was taken up by installation of tents, arranging Army rehearsals etc. etc.

    45. The Great Mahabharat War started on Shubhakrit Margashirsha Bright 13/14th Day, Tuesday in Bharani Star. Yudhishthir was yrs. 91-2-9 days old. Just the previous day 11/12th Day, when armies were rehearsing Vyuhas, Arjuna fell into a gloom, occasioning Lord Krishna's famous BhagavadGeeta discourse with Arjuna.

    46. Bhishma's Fall : On Margashirsha Dark 7th Day.

    47. Abhimanyu's Death : Abhimanyu was killed on Margashirsha Dark 10th Day. He was aged 32 years (From Pramodoota to Shubhakrit). Since marraige was in Jyeshta month, he led only 6 month's family life, and Uttara was 6 months pregnant.

    48. Saindhava's Death : Saindhava was killed on Margashirsha Dark 11th Day.

    The battle was continued even into the night.

    Drona was killed on Margashirsha Dark 12th Day at noon.

    49. Karna's Death : Karna was killed on Margashirsha Dark 14th Day.

    Salya was killed on Margashirsha New Moon Day at noon.

    50. Duryodhana's Fall : He fell on Margashirsha New Moon Day/Pausha Bright 1st Day in the evening. He died the next morning on the Bright 1st Day.

    51. Balrama started on pilgrimage on Kartik Dark 5th Day, in Pushyami Star. So, date-wise and star-wise also, pilgrimage took 42 days.

    52. Ashwatthama murdered Pandava's sons during the same night on Margashirsha New Moon/Pausha Bright 1st Day night, and conveyed the dire information to the dying Duryodhana on Bright 1st Day early morning. Defeat of Ashwatthama : on Pausha Bright 1st Day.

    53. Pandava Armies 7 Akshouhinis = 551,33,83,260
    Kaurava Armies 11 Akshouhinis = 866,38,87,960
    Total 18 Akshouhinis = 1417,72,71,240

    Except Pandavas, Krishna. Satyaki and Yuyutsu on Pandavas side, and Kripa, Krutavarma and Ashwatthama on Kaurava's side, all were killed. Yudhishthira told Dhritarashtra that Great Warriors (MahaRathis) killed in the War, were more than 94 crores.

    No clear details are available in the Epic, how Pandava Warriors disposed off kaurava armies. Abhimanyu on the 13th Day, killed more than 0.50 Akshouhini army, and Arjuna on the 14th Day killed 5 Akshouhinis.

    54. Attacking Pandavas side,

    Bhishma killed nearly 1.27 Akshouhinis = 100,00,00,000
    Drona killed nearly 1.00 Akshouhinis = 78,76,26,180
    Karna killed nearly 2.37 Akshouhinis = 186,28,78,540
    Salya killed nearly 0.29 Akshouhinis = 22,60,46,000
    Ashwatthama killed nearly 0.09 Akshouhinis = 7,20,24,400
    Rest of the warriors 1.98 Akshouhinis = 156,48,08,140

    Warrior-Warrior fights
    (Sankula-Samara)

    TOTAL 7.00 Akshouhinis = 551,33,83,260

    55. Yudhishthira's age was yrs. 91-2-27. Pandavas observed 12 days mourning from Pausha Bright 1st Day to 13th Day. Mass cremations were done on the 14th day, and the same evening, Pandavas proceeded to Hastinapur.

    56. Yudhishthira was crowned on Shubhakrit Pausha Full Moon Day. Yudhishthira was yrs. 91-3-10 days old.

    57. Pandavas called on Bhishma (who was prostrate on a bed of arrows) on Pausha Dark 2nd Day, stayed upto 8th Day, listened to Bhishma's advisory discourse, returned to Hastinapur, stayed for 15 days and went to Bhishma again on Maagha Bright 8th day. On 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th day, Bhishma was in meditation. He renounced his mortal coil on 12th day. Hence 8th-12th of Pausha Dark Fortnight is called Bhishma Panchakam. Bhishma fell prostrate on Margashirsha Dark 7th Day. From 8th Day to Maagha Bright 11th Day, 48 days elapsed. "AshtaPanchasatam ratryassayana syasyama gatha" that is, Bhishma said that he completed 58 (10+48) days on the battlefield. " Sarashu nisitagresu yatha varsha satam tatha" meaning, by lying on pointed arrows, it appeared although it was 100 years. " Tribhaga seshah pakshyam suklo" meaning, it is Bright Fortnight, and still 3 parts remained. ( By dividing Bright Fortnight into 10 parts, 7 parts = 10.5 days or 11th day is in progress, and still 3 parts = 4.5 days remained upto Full Moon Day.)

    58. Ashwamedha Yadnya began on Shobhakrit Maagha Bright 12th Day. Just earlier, Parikshit was born to Uttara as posthumas premature, still born male baby at 8/9 months, but was revived by Krishna.

    15 years later, in Kartik month, Dhritarashtra left for the forest. 3 years later, Pandavas went to the forest to see Dhritarashtra etc. Vidura's death.
    After 1 month, Dhritarashtra, Gandhari and Kunti got killed in a forest fire.

    59. Thirty six years after the Great War, that is in Bahudhanya year, evil omens in Dwaraka were observed. Samba became pregnant and a iron rod (musalam) was born.

    60. Yudhishthir ruled for yrs. 36-2-15 days. From Shubhakrit Pushya Full Moon Day to Bahudhanya Pushya Full Moon Day, it was 36 years and adding 0-2-15 days, it was Pramadi Bright 1st Day, when Kailyug started and Shri Krishna finished his Avatar. (B.C 3102-2-20 at 2-27-30 P.M)

    61. Seven days later, on Bright 7th Day, Dwarka city was submerged by the Ocean. Saptarishis were in Magha Star, 75 years prior to Kaliyug and remained there for 25 years after Kaliyug.

    Yudhishthir Shaka started from his coronation day that is, Krishna finished his Avatar in Yudhishthir Shaka yrs. 36-2-15.

    62. Pandavas started for their Final End after 0-6-11 days, that is, on Pramadi Ashwayuja Bright 12th Day. Yudhishthir was aged yrs. 128-0-6. Parikshit, 36 years old, was coronated on the same day at Hastinapur.

    63. Swargaarohanam is not clearly stated in the Epic. It may be 26 years afterwards. Sage Veda Vyas dictated the Great Epic to Ganapati only after Swargarohanam of the Pandavas, that is, after 26 years of Kaliyug.

    64. Parikshit ruled for 60 years, coronated his 25 year old son Janamejaya, and died.

    65. So, Bhagavatha was written by Sage Veda Vyas soon after Mahabharat was over, and before the 60th year of the Kaliyuga.

    @Red: So, Abhi was 32+ when he died. In Dwapara Yuga, people lived upto 400 years. There are four stages in life - Balya, Youvana, Koumara and Vridhya. In Dwaparyug, Balya stage was upto 40 years, Youvana stage upto 120 years, and later Koumara and Vriddhya stages. So, Abhi was a Balya.


    Source: http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/mahabharat/mahab_patnaik.html

Edited by -bharti - 11 years ago
TheWatcher thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#20

Originally posted by: bheegi


I agree, CE doesn't mention age, but if child is 33+ then what's youth? Because it says he hasn't even attained his youth. It seems far fetched to me that a child is 30-40 and youth is 50-60😕



Here you go - " In Dwapara Yuga, human beings lived upto 400 years. There are four stages in life - Balya, Youvana, Koumara and Vriddhapyam. In Dwaparyug, Balya stage was upto 40 years, Youvana stage upto 120 years, and later Koumara and Vriddhapyam stages. But now in the Kaliyuga, Balya stage is upto 15 years, Youvana upto 45 years, Koumara upto 60 years and Vriddhapyam beyond 60 years "

As you can see, Balya stage was upto 40 years and Abhimanyu is considered to be aged around 33-37, so yes, he was in his minority and he was a child.

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