'I will not wed a Suta ...' - Page 7

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Posted: 11 years ago
#61

Originally posted by: bheegi

@Varaali...I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post this but as we are discussing the suta comment, I thought I would share this citation re: intercaste marriages in the MB era:

The Mahahharata noisily denounces interclass relationships, insisting that people should marry within their own class. Interclass couplings are rhetorically rejected, and considered to be emblematic of vice. As one passage states: "Because of inducements of wealth, greed, lust, or lack of clarity about the varna order, or even ignorance of the varna order, intermixtures of class occur" (XIII.48.1). The most righteous marriages, therefore, are class endogamous, observing the boundaries of one's station.

certain kinds of union are tolerated. These are anuloma marriages, involving the union of a high-class man with a lower-class woman. Men may marry beneath themselves, particularly in polygynous marriages, although their primary wife is still expected to be of equal rank. Women, however, are strongly discouraged from marrying low. Thus, the alliance of a hrahmana woman and a ksatriya man is actively disapproved. As king Janaka says to the hhiksunf Sulabha, assuming her to be a hrahmana, "You are a brahmana, and I a ksatriya. There is no union permitted for the two of us. Do not cause varnasamkara" (XII.308.59). Pratiloma marriages, where women marry below their class, are the source of much antipathy in the text. Children born from these marriages take the class neither of their fathers nor of their mothers. Instead, they form a series of subclasses categorized below the class of both their parents.

A hrahmana woman with a ksatriya man yields a siita, which is a subclass lower than all of the four traditional varna groups. A suta earns his living as a minstrel, a bard, or a chariot driver. A hrahmana woman married to a vaisya man yields a vaidehaka. His occupation is looking after the bars and bolts for protecting the privacy of women in respectable households. The very worst of combinations is that of a hrahmana woman and a sudra man. Such a union yields a candala, a subclass that is the very lowest of the low, even lower than the sudra. All pratiloma unions are held in contempt, but the sentiment for candalas is nothing short of spiteful. The candalas are worse than the dogs of society; they are the "dog-eaters" (svapakah) the most despised of all.

Whereas Sudras work as dasas and dasis in dvija homes, and dasis occasionally are even privileged to bear children for dv~a men, candalas are objects to be despised or hated. Passages in the Anusasanaparva presage the attitudes toward outcasts in later Hinduism. A hrdhmana must not allow the shadow of a candala to fall on him. If the shadow of a candala falls on a consecrated space, the space becomes immediately defiled, and so forth.


Arti Dhand. Woman As Fire, Woman As Sage: Sexual Ideology in the Mahabharata (S U N Y Series in Religious Studies) (Kindle Locations 1644-1646). Kindle Edition.

I'm glad we don't think in these terms in kaliyuga (at least most of us I hope) but based on this citation, can one blame Draupadi for even thinking in those terms? So what if she rejected a lower caste man? It was consistent with the beliefs of those times

King Yadu is the son of kshatriya king Yayati and brahman Devyani. Acc to cast tradition he is suta. Krishna (Yadav) is the lineage of Yadu. Many Kshatriya princess married Lord Krishna.


Also woman marrying more than one man was uncommon at that time. In fact Draupadi was the first one in dwapar yug (correct me if I am wrong). The example given of Daksh's mother was happened at the beginning of Satya Yug. The society even questioned Goddess Sita.

Sorry but I always have a question a girl strictly following tradition had married 5 men!

And why nobody object to Karn's saying of unchaste woman and VH.


I am not defending any action in VH. All were wrong

Someone pls give the source where Dhrishtadyumna stopped Karn in partcipating swayamver. .



Edited by Neutral2 - 11 years ago
amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#62

Originally posted by: Neutral2

King Yadu is the son of kshatriya king Yayati and brahman Devyani. Acc to cast tradition he is suta. Krishna (Yadav) is the lineage of Yadu. Many Kshatriya princess married Lord Krishna.


Also woman marrying more than one man was uncommon at that time. In fact Draupadi was the first one in dwapar yug (correct me if I am wrong). The example given of Daksh's mother was happened at the beginning of Satya Yug. The society even questioned Goddess Sita.

Sorry but I always have a question a girl strictly following tradition had married 5 men!

And why nobody object to Karn's saying of unchaste woman and VH.


I am not defending any action in VH. All were wrong.



Interesting point.
No one objected to Karna's saying of unchaste.
If your implication is, what I think it is, then,
no one objected when she was getting disrobed right? So, does that "no-objection" really validate anything that happened on that day?
However, did anyone object to Draupadi having 5 husbands?
If I'm not mistaken, then initially Drupad was a bit reluctant, but gave in when Ved Vyas convinced him.
And after that, did Dhritarashtra, Gandhari, Bhishm, etc ever question this arrangement?
She was allowed to be the Queen, despite having 5 husbands.
Even in Virat Parva, if I'm not wrong, when Draupadi says I have the protection of 5 Gandharvas, did Queen Sudeshna question her character? Please correct me, if I have made a mistake.
Karna was called Sutaputra by many(which I know is unfair), but did anyone apart from Karna call Draupadi "unchaste" for having 5 husbands? Again, please correct me, if I have made a mistake.
So, maybe Draupadi was not the first person to have polyandry, and hence people, including sages accepted her polyandry.
Edited by amritat - 11 years ago
srishtisingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#63

Originally posted by: amritat

</div><font color="#cc0000">Interesting point.</font> <div><font color="#cc0000">No one objected to Karna's saying of unchaste.</font>
<font color="#cc0000">If your implication is, what I think it is, then,</font>
<font color="#cc0000">no one objected when she was getting disrobed right? So, does that "no-objection" really validate anything?</font>
</strong>
<font color="#cc0000">However,did anyone object to Draupadi having 5 husbands?</font>
<font color="#cc0000">If I'm not mistaken, then initially Drupad was a bit reluctant, but gave in when Ved Vyas convinced him.</font>
<font color="#cc0000">And after that, did Dhritarashtra, Gandhari, Bhishm, etc ever question this arrangement?</font>
<font color="#cc0000">She was allowed to be the Queen, despite having 5 husbands. </font>
<font color="#cc0000">Even in Virat Parva, if I'm not wrong, when Draupadi says I have the protection of 5 Gandharvas, did Queen Sudeshna question her character? Please correct me, if I have made a mistake.</font>
<font color="#cc0000">Karna was called Sutaputra by many(which I know is unfair), but did anyone apart from Karna call Draupadi "unchaste" for having 5 husbands? Again, please correct me, if I have made a mistake.</font>
<strong>

amrita that's what I too wish to ask. how come draupadi was allowed to b a queen if polyandry was such a big boo boo. mb confuses me. if polyandry was not allowed how come those rigid kuruvanshis elders accepted it? if it was considered wrong why epic bheeshma who was so much knowledgable abt dharma did not throw tantrums like starbheeshma? why that king, queen even for that matter dury did not object at marriage? correct me if I am wrong. also ramayana and mb context I find them so similar yet so different that I wonder if they represent different cultures rather than one at times. mb society was so open that it even accepted niyoga, which is hard to digest for us but ramayana society questioned sita? in mb a woman is married to five men and is accepted as queen but ramayan sita who was forcibly kidnapped by ravan and has even given agni pariksha is questioned by public. mb why are u so confusing
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Posted: 11 years ago
#64

Originally posted by: srishtisingh


amrita that's what I too wish to ask. how come draupadi was allowed to b a queen if polyandry was such a big boo boo. mb confuses me. if polyandry was not allowed how come those rigid kuruvanshis elders accepted it? if it was considered wrong why epic bheeshma who was so much knowledgable abt dharma did not throw tantrums like starbheeshma? why that king, queen even for that matter dury did not object at marriage? correct me if I am wrong. also ramayana and mb context I find them so similar yet so different that I wonder if they represent different cultures rather than one at times. mb society was so open that it even accepted niyoga, which is hard to digest for us but ramayana society questioned sita? in mb a woman is married to five men and is accepted as queen but ramayan sita who was forcibly kidnapped by ravan and has even given agni pariksha is questioned by public. mb why are u so confusing

Exactly.
I have been thinking about this for quite some time now.
Did anyone, apart from Karna, EVER question Draupadi for having 5 husbands?
I don't think so.
Even people like Ved Vyas convinced Drupad to let her marry 5 men.
Someone like Dharmraj declared that all 5 brothers will marry a princess.
She was allowed to be a Queen, and that required her to perform a lot of rituals.
How come she was allowed that?
If polyandry was really a taboo. then how come no one objected?
But, Karna has been insulted for being a Sutaputra many times, by many people.
Many people denied him the right to participate in many occasions, bcoz, he was a Sutaputra.
But no one ever question Draupadi for having 5 husbands.
I guess, there is only conclusion to this.
People of those times were more rigid about Caste System, than they were about Polyandry.
In those times, niyog, premarital pregnancy, polyandry were there. They were uncommon, but there.
As for Ma Sita's life, I guess , that was a completely different age.
Think about today.
Can we imagine something like niyog today? Or accept polygamy with open minds?
Can we imagine a mother asking her son to share his first wife with his brothers?
So, I guess, mentality, norms, mindsets change with the passage of time.
What is right now, was wrong then, and vice-versa.
Excepting extreme things like murder and molestation or rape, these systems like Polygamy, Caste System, Child Marriage become right or wrong, depending on the age, in which one lives.
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Posted: 11 years ago
#65
still amrita it seems like dwapar yuga was open abt few things than treta and our modern kalyuga
Neutral2 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#66

Originally posted by: amritat

Interesting point.

No one objected to Karna's saying of unchaste.
If your implication is, what I think it is, then,
no one objected when she was getting disrobed right? So, does that "no-objection" really validate anything that happened on that day?
However, did anyone object to Draupadi having 5 husbands?
If I'm not mistaken, then initially Drupad was a bit reluctant, but gave in when Ved Vyas convinced him.
And after that, did Dhritarashtra, Gandhari, Bhishm, etc ever question this arrangement?
She was allowed to be the Queen, despite having 5 husbands.
Even in Virat Parva, if I'm not wrong, when Draupadi says I have the protection of 5 Gandharvas, did Queen Sudeshna question her character? Please correct me, if I have made a mistake.
Karna was called Sutaputra by many(which I know is unfair), but did anyone apart from Karna call Draupadi "unchaste" for having 5 husbands? Again, please correct me, if I have made a mistake.
So, maybe Draupadi was not the first person to have polyandry, and hence people, including sages accepted her polyandry.

Ohh my internet is too slow...

Anyways I am not talking about morality here. I am only talking about tradition. People easily defend (kmg) Draupadi (in swayamver incident) by blaming to caste tradition. But she broke up tradition by marrying 5 men. May be she didn't have option left.

And Drupad object this first but was convinced by Sage Vyas later.

"Hearing these words of the Rishi, Drupada spoke first, saying, 'The practice is sinful in my opinion, being opposed to both usage and the Vedas.

Nobody question this because of respect towards Sage Vyas as a God.

Don't talk about Queen sudeshana. She intentionally send Draupadi to her evil brother's room.

And Karn was allowed in another swayamver (ex Laksmana swayamver in which Lord Krishna win)

srishtisingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#67
but even ram was treated as god still sita was questioned?
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Posted: 11 years ago
#68

Originally posted by: Neutral2

Ohh my internet is too slow...

Anyways I am not talking about morality here. I am only talking about tradition. People easily defend (kmg) Draupadi (in swayamver incident) by blaming to caste tradition. But she broke up tradition by marrying 5 men. May be she didn't have option left.

And Drupad object this first but was convinced by Sage Vyas later.

"Hearing these words of the Rishi, Drupada spoke first, saying, 'The practice is sinful in my opinion, being opposed to both usage and the Vedas.

Nobody question this because of respect towards Sage Vyas as a God.

Don't talk about Queen sudeshana. She intentionally send Draupadi to her evil brother's room.

And Karn was allowed in another swayamver (ex Laksmana swayamver in which Lord Krishna win)

U see, what tradition is prevalent, and wat is not, is difficult to understand.
Are u sure, she broke tradition by marrying 5 men?
If so, then y did no one like Bhishm, Dhritarashtra object?
Just bcoz of Ved Vyas? It cannot be.
Why would Drupad let his own daughter's life get ruined, bcoz of wat a respected sage says?
People defend Draupadi, bcoz it was the biggest decision of her life.
Please understand, had it been another ordinary competition, then discrimination on the basis of caste would have been wrong.
But can u say she was wrong for being choosy for marriage? It would be extremely unfair, if u say so.
Don't we today, try to be preferential, when it comes to choosing our partners?
For some, it is caste, for others it's class, for some it is looks, and so on.
At most, Draupadi was wrong in speaking up aloud like that. Her manner was wrong.
Instead of speaking up like that, she should have gestured her father or brother to do the talking.
Apart from that, it would be unfair to say that she was wrong.
Now tell me one thing, would u blame Draupadi, if she had rejected Shishupal or Jaydrath for some reason, and had not let them participate?
I don't think so.
All these emotions get stirred, and blame game starts, bcoz, she rejected Karna, and everybody is sensitive when it comes to Karna, or so I feel.
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Posted: 11 years ago
#69

Originally posted by: Neutral2

I understand Draupadi situation when she had decided to marry 5 pandav. She didn't have option left. Either she had to marry 5 pandav or remain unmarried.

And drupad was manupulated by Sage Vyas that it happened bec of mahadev boon.

Leave Bhism. He didn't object when Karn said her unchaste in the name of marrying 5 men. He was a confused soul.

And yes you are right that it should be only Draupadi decision whom to marry or not. But what she could do is not to invite Duryodhan and his gang incl. Karn

What hurt most is she said "I will not wed suta"

Her decision was right but not the way she did it.

And yaa Karn was 100% wrong in VH.

It is interesting that in other version she did not say this.


You are right. And that is exactly what I said too.
Her decision was not wrong, but her manner was.
But I don't think she invited Karna and the others.
I don't think women in those times got involved in such things. The men arranged all these things. It was probably Drupad and Dhrishtadyumna who gave out the invitations.
In fact, I think Draupadi was not even aware of who was invited and not invited, until the 16th day of her Swamvar, when she arrived at the Sabha.
I could be wrong, but I think it was only then, that she got to know who her suitors were, and from what backgrounds. I could be wrong about this part, and I need to check KMG again, to verify.
It was then, that she got to know of Karna being a suitor and a Sutaputra, and hence rejected him instantly, without thinking left or right. She was probably an adolescent of 14 or 15, who impulsively rejected Karna, for his caste.
Little did she know, that her one impulsive act would translate to such a horrible situation in the future.
And Draupadi had 2 options before her. To accept polyandry or jump into fire like Amba. She chose the former.
And not only Bhishma, but everyone accepted her polyandry openly.
Imagine, a Queen having 5 husbands, and having children with all of them.
If polyandry really had been a taboo, then she would have been ostracised or removed from the position of Queen long ago.
So, I think people of those times were okay with polyandry, atleast in special cases, but not with Caste System.
And yes, her "Sutaputra" comment is actually not there in many translations.
Edited by amritat - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago
#70

What will happen if Draupadi say "I will not wed any Kaurav and Karn because they kill their own cousin brother Pandavs deceitfully"

Everybody in the Hastinapur city know that Kaurav had done this (Varnavrat house burning)

LOL

Edited by Neutral2 - 11 years ago

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