META chai party: women in soapland - Page 6

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tvbug2011 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#51
Great topic. Just read and thoroughly enjoyed seven pages of this very stimulating discussion. So many very well thought out and deeply felt posts. It's difficult to know where to start. I probably won't get around to responding to all the points and issues that have been raised here. But here goes...
@ParheezGM Don't even get me started on khushi of ipkknd!! Another strong sometimes entertaining woman. She is shown to start off a project in full swing which makes me believe how enterprising she is but without any explanation she just drops it like a hot potato!! For eg., she started with her own halvai which went kaput... Then her own tuition class's which God knows why went ppffftt!! Then she started with her own catering business which also for some reason lasted no more than a couple of episodes
Yes, I agree. Khushi is shown to be a woman of talent, enterprise and passion, and yet she fails every single time, and this is despite being in dire financial straits. It has always rankled that she could not have been shown financially independent, meeting arnav on an equal footing, rather than having to face his many taunts about her 'aukat'.
And that suicide attempt!!! What can one say, the CVs must have collectively taken leave of their senses, so frivolous and tasteless was their treatment of it. And it wasn't as if the audience appreciated it either. IF at least has frequently erupted against the injustices meted out to Khushi, and her ceaseless self-sacrifice.
And even if IF is not representative of the show's wider Indian audience, I have absolutely no doubt that Indian housewives, who are known to be concerned about the household purse, could not have been overjoyed by the loss of income from her failed attempts.
So my point is that I am sure that the impetus for Khushi's characterisation comes from the PH and the CVs rather than from the serial's female audience.
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Posted: 12 years ago
#52

Originally posted by: Foucaults-qalam

@ SD your post re Rashi and mum, whom I looked up btw, providing you with insights into RL vamps was extremely telling. That has changed my view of how to assimilate one dimensional portrayals of negative roles.

But perhaps the people troubling you were also looking at her as a role model? A sellf -fulfilling prophecy as it were!


Priyachand wrote...
we can learn abt human behaviour by studying such chrs. but i have come across stories were ppl get influenced by such serials and start imagining insults from their in laws from these serials.
i don't know whether art reflects life or life imitates art. d discussion just goes on!


FQ, Priyachand

@bold
That we felt too many times. And we made the mistake of saying it on their faces ...saying do you just follow so and so soap and indulge in all this scheming.

I am not sure if I can piece this together or not, but some vamps are pathological liars and errants. They live in their make believe world that they will be successful in their agenda. Like DeepLali of Madhubala. She just cannot stop herself and come to RK and call MB a stupid. I mean how can the fool not know both RK and MB are least interested in her and she cannot win against them. Yet RK fears her mind and wants to keep MB safe from her.

Likewise, my SIL used to come out such as such a fool, driving us nuts, when she acted out in certain "happy-go-luckly" manner with all smiles in place only to increase our blood pressure.
She was a pathological liar and was trying to weave a tale of abuse around her. It was such a clinical condition, we had to call her parents and tell this is what is happening. And soon one day she is gonna tear herself up or injure herself and plant any story on us.
This was so like Rashi and Gopi Vahu ki saas. The way Kokila(was her name Kokila 😕) used to get irritated with Rashi's acting of good DIL, was exactly my mom underwent. It did spark off slapping abuse on Kokila and family by Rashi...so it happened to us.
LIke Deeplali's schemes, even now we fear, what further drama they want with us. The matter is in court...so why not keep the piece and yet they hound us, not giving a moment's respite.

Thing is we are able to close the loops like RK does with Deeplali, or Kokila does with Rashi, but the fear never goes away, because the vamps dog us.

There was Afsar Bitiya until May that I watched over ZEE, there was no female vamp there...there was a villain there. But he did not seem pathological and clinical condition like Rashi and Dipali.

😕
Sorry this is off-topic, but then as a writer you may know how to make use of this information.



Edited by shridevigaddam - 12 years ago
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Posted: 12 years ago
#53
@SG Loved your reference to serials in the 80s. How I loved Kachhi Dhoop and the chemistry betn Bhagyashree and AG, SRK and Renuka Shahane in Circus and of course Fauji.
Rajani gave voice to the Indian housewife in those days. Interestingly, even though Udaan had a strong IPS female lead, it still managed to show great chemistry between her and Shekhar Kapur (still droooling...sighhh). And Kitu G's glam airhostess act was nevertheless from a position of strength. Trishna...Lizzie was perfectly rendered as dignified, intelligent, and a woman of backbone. No watering down of her character in this Indian adaptation.

I ask myself, where are those days now ? Where are those years of Super Woman

Why all these women looked natural and with whom we could relate to ?

And why these have been so different from the present Soap Heroine.
Why indeed? Dumbing down is a trend that actually spans media. Starting with the early 90s when audiences and therefore ad revenue fragmented with the influx of Cable & Satellite TV. Newspapers too lost audiences to TV. Newspaper articles grew shorter and simpler - they had to compete with TV for attention. The topics were also dumbed down, selected for popularity, and to appeal to the lowest common denominator. The excuse given was that advertisers ruled. This excuse conveniently allowed editorial integrity to be compromised - to the extent of influencing the themes, topics and slants picked. Ultimately, it was all about financial survival.
Why should it be any different for TV? MTV beat Channel V at its game by Indianising its content to a greater extent than V. Then Star Plus followed suit with ever more Hindi serials. Came Ekta with initially strong female leads(Kahaani Ghar Ghar Ki and Kyunki) in naff OTT glam outfits, and kitchen politics, which lent itself to regressive characterisation. I stopped watching TV serials at that point, and missed out on the Ektafication of Hindi serials. But it's clear that by the time Ekta had ruled for a few years, the template for soap success had been set.
More recently, I remember railing against the abuse of women by a woman in Colors' Na Aana is Des Laado, and again in Balika Vadhu. But those serials kept garnering eyeballs. The channel it seemed had very cleverly segmented its audience by regions, and tailored its serials to the specific audience segments. It had customised the serials to issues and concerns of the audience segments. But instead of wading in with empowered women leads, did the exact opposite. Eventually, disclaimer-of-abuse-against-women-ridden Na Aana had to be shut down. And Balika Vadhu with an empowered female lead now gets as good if not better trps today. Surely that if nothing else should be an object lesson to TV bosses that audiences do appreciate women's empowerment. It's just up to the TV serials to make that message palatable.
Gosh this was a long post. I will retire peacefully now...the bed beckons 😊
Edited by tvbug2011 - 12 years ago
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Posted: 12 years ago
#54

Originally posted by: shridevigaddam

@ParheezGM (PGM),

Wish you gave us a name to know you by. Your choice. Need a lil personal touch there. You know affection leads to good memory for people like me, else my memory makes me forget everthing 😉 😆

@PGM, Cari, Simi
Awesome thoughts and examples taken. I agree each and every word of your presentation.


Crying Parvati
Simi's example is the best one to tell us, how the creatives manipulate content for their own benefit. I am sure no middle-aged, aged, Indian traditions knowing woman will accept the crass that Parvati is crying like an ordinary all-glycerine soap heroine of today.

Then Why ?? Why change something that is not historically or religiously true ? Why challenge that and what purpose it serves ?

Why - because...the target audience here is not the Saas and Bahu of the house-hold. It would be boring for them to watch what we already know. Its the same reason I don't watch it. Ramanand Sagar killed me with his near shots -far shots, zooming shots, still shots, cheap sets when I was watching his Doordarshan "Ramayan" in 80's. It took a BR Chopra's Mahabharat to make me believe that Creatives can also be TRUE to Mythology, Religion, Traditons and Art. But not everyone can be a BR Chopra ! Sigh!!

Coming back to target audience of Devon Ka Dev Mahadev - I am tempted to believe that target audience is the youngster audience. The choice of actors taken explains...they are liked by a lot of youngsters. May be they think, Gaurav can do what Gurmeet did for Ramayan-II


Why change something that is not historically or religiously true ? Why challenge and what purpose it serves ?
The target audience of youngsters does not know what is traditionally correct, what is religiously right. Because they have not gone through any texts in schools. When I was a teenager, I was able to discern the content of Ramayan and Mahabharat of Doordarshan days. How ? Because as a KV Student, I read Sankshipt Ramayan and Sankshipt Mahabharat in Class VI and VII per KV curriculum. The current Samajwadi, Janta party, Congress party, CPM led SECULAR Political philosophy has made sure that all such texts are now withdrawn from school curriculam. I have no fear in saying that Sonia Gandhi would go to any extent to remove all source of knowledge from the schools.
This loop-hole gives such a wide field for the writers, producers, Channel wallahs to manipulate the content to their advantage. All the lead channels today ..STAR, ZEE, SONY, Colors, they are foremost MNC's who hardly care for the Indian psyche. All they have to think is about Profit. And sometimes, some influence to change the content also prevails.
A patriot Indian when making the film by himself, may want to show flaws in society in hope of creating inspiration to become flawless, to fight. Like Shyam Benegal, Girish Karnad, Paranjape, Kundan Shah of yesteryears.
A MNC driven- rootless and passion-less executive in contrast, what will he know about emotions, inspiration ? All he knows is Product, Positioning, Promotion, Selling, And Adaptations to cater to Product Life Cycle Curves.

When Pepsi and Coke came in 90's and started the Cola war, and in process Campa got killed or Parle sanely sold itself out to the giant war, I vowed to myself, that I will never go for Pepsi or Coke. And till date I have stuck to it.
It is the people...who need to rise up to see what they want to be inspired about and how they get educated. or simple what they want to see...
Alas!! What kind of hope I expecting out of Indians...the laziest bums, the callous, the opportunity mongers, cheating the other by maintaining the ignorance...

AUDIENCE -INCAPACITY -Challenge Number 1
The social mileau, the political mileau is presently bent on keeping the YOUNG MIND IGNORANT. Until that is addressed, I cannot completely blame youngsters. Infact I feel for them. And one of the reason why I want to be still a critical viewer. I thrived on critical journalism and corrected my thought processes when I was growing up. Dissemination of information was channelized.
Now in the Internet Age, there is no problem of dissemenation. It is assimilation of information that is a challenge. If a mentor in the form of teacher, a renowed journalist can guide you to a thought process, who is now there to guide you in the Internet Age.

The Eco-Social Mileau, The Middle-Age Syndrome KILLS the living spirit of the MIDDLE-AGED Mind. This is completely a diseased situation, If there was no TV and its regressive soaps, I guess these Indian women would have taken to Depression Pills like the millions here in US.
This is the age, of whom the Pharmaceutical companies and Media take advantage of from women in developed world and of whom Media companies take advantage in developing countries.
A time, when there needs to be a healing by showing positivity around, the money-making corporates have instead decided to promote negativity so that they make more money. Soon out of this regressed atmosphere, I am sure the women who watch the idiot box may zone out beyond the CATHARTIC feeling and end up being LISTLESS to feel anything at all. It may soon follow that this audience will see depression pills making their way to the Indian Pharma stores.

MONEY-SPONSORSHIP RULES
Olden days, ART was patronized by Kings.
Nowadays, ART is patronized by the Merchant
There's bound to be perceptual difference in the way the SPONSORSHIP happens and the ART pans itself out. A Merchant can never have the class, elan and nobleness of the King.

is it true that the texts have removed all contents of hindu mythological history? i knew about shivaji's section being removed but even ramayan and mahabharat? and no1 did anything? what a SHAME! what r they going to do next extoll invaders and oppressors of india as reformers ?
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Posted: 12 years ago
#55
@Bhoomi,
Agree. Before 92 and post 92 ...business environment changes and resulting impact.
Inference : TRP based regime should end. Should we go on a Dharna..Murdabad Murdabad...or we check what is the status of ND TV's suing on TRP sites for dressing TRP figures ?
Is there a body we can approach ? Things to be pondered.

@Carisma2
:) Thanx.

>>>Yes Shri the vamps are deffo the most close to reality, because they are not set by any expectant boundaries. The positive leads are tied down, making sure they do not break through from the 'idealistic' mould.
So agree.

@Preeti,
>>>> So this is my third attempt at writing a response, let's hope this one chose through. I swear sometimes that this forum hates me.
😆 Come on. Nothing of that sort.

Yes. EK created that BALH. Don't know about kya hua
Because of Sony the content is different from rest of EK's soaps. But that was just the initial presentation. Now she is back to leaps and ugly twists. Come on who marries his wife's sister ? How regressive is that ?
And come on how come that man keeps getting awards when he played similar role in Kasam Se. He sleeps with his wife's sister and has a kid with her.
Ugh!!!!

I don't know which ZEE show u are talking about. But have u seen Pavitra Rishta ? Can you digest Archana's character ? I mean the actress herself made fun of her character saying she has to sacrifice even though she doesn't need to. That seemed a clinical condition.😕

Agree there are no options left.

@Cari, Preeti, Desi_Girl1991
I stopped watching Hindi movies for same reason. I am also scared to watch

But definitely there are some really nice movies in parallel.. Did you watch
  • Welcome to Sajjanpur
  • Wednesday
  • Well Done Abba
  • Do Dooni Chaar
  • Honeymoon Travels Pvt Ltd
Watch them.. They are good.😊
madhubala.fan thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#56

Originally posted by: shridevigaddam


Priyachand wrote...
we can learn abt human behaviour by studying such chrs. but i have come across stories were ppl get influenced by such serials and start imagining insults from their in laws from these serials.
i don't know whether art reflects life or life imitates art. d discussion just goes on!


FQ, Priyachand

@bold
That we felt too many times. And we made the mistake of saying it on their faces ...saying do you just follow so and so soap and indulge in all this scheming.

I am not sure if I can piece this together or not, but some vamps are pathological liars and errants. They live in their make believe world that they will be successful in their agenda. Like DeepLali of Madhubala. She just cannot stop herself and come to RK and call MB a stupid. I mean how can the fool not know both RK and MB are least interested in her and she cannot win against them. Yet RK fears her mind and wants to keep MB safe from her.

Likewise, my SIL used to come out such as such a fool, driving us nuts, when she acted out in certain "happy-go-luckly" manner with all smiles in place only to increase our blood pressure.
She was a pathological liar and was trying to weave a tale of abuse around her. It was such a clinical condition, we had to call her parents and tell this is what is happening. And soon one day she is gonna tear herself up or injure herself and plant any story on us.
This was so like Rashi and Gopi Vahu ki saas. The way Kokila(was her name Kokila 😕) used to get irritated with Rashi's acting of good DIL, was exactly my mom underwent. It did spark off slapping abuse on Kokila and family by Rashi...so it happened to us.
LIke Deeplali's schemes, even now we fear, what further drama they want with us. The matter is in court...so why not keep the piece and yet they hound us, not giving a moment's respite.

Thing is we are able to close the loops like RK does with Deeplali, or Kokila does with Rashi, but the fear never goes away, because the vamps dog us.

There was Afsar Bitiya until May that I watched over ZEE, there was no female vamp there...there was a villain there. But he did not seem pathological and clinical condition like Rashi and Dipali.

😕
Sorry this is off-topic, but then as a writer you may know how to make use of this information.



as a neutral observer shri i would like to say , it is better to leave out such personal matters. u never know who is reading. and another thing, why should i believe your story about your SIL ?
it is onyl your word against someone who is not even here to defend or porduce a counter testimony?
my personal experience is just the opposite. i hav been named patological lier too, my depression which i underwent due to their mistreatment , was also blamed on me ... it was supposed to be an acting well thought out by myself to harrass them. even they use the very same ideology about me, try n convince my parents im lying,
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Posted: 12 years ago
#57
continued : to escape the mental torture even i had contemplated to commit suicide once ... but they even play the victim card there . said it was a strategy to malign their name.
in short come what may they blame the bahu!
if ther eis one thign which is absolutely correct, it is their own behavior.
so i feel a person who is undubtedly outnumbered with the whole hosue hold ganging up against her is certain to be made the scape goat for everything.
dont ask me why i stuck back ... i had lots of majboories as a mother and a person with aging paents and unmarried sister. did nto want faaltu ka tamasha ... and to a certain extent i have tided over my problems. if i survive , i plan to hand it all down to them oen day. but thats a different matter.
i know irst hand the problems of beign outnumbered one to too many.
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Posted: 12 years ago
#58
@Dovesview,

You talk like me.

But my son questions each of the cultural activity for rationality. He is not wrong, and at the same time, I am not incorrect when I follow what is taught to me to believe in. It is just the perception and adaptation.
I am drawn to TV of today because I want to de-stress like SD and many others stated in this thread. What I want to see is something Indian that I can connect to and not something that I can ape like the ones that our younger generations would want to watch on the English channels these days. I am not saying I am against those sitcoms or not enjoy them but I don't get the sense of belonging when I watch them. An Indian woman still wants to see an image of herself in the TV screen irrespective of the attire, location, etc but not as a slave but as a woman with her own mind to speak and act upon. She looks for comical relief at times. She wants unadulterated romance. She wants to see love. She wants social messages. She wants liberalization. She wants progression. She wants to see her woman doing the run-of-the-mill stuff too at times without pressure. What she hates is using woman on soaps as doormats.
There might come a day when the makers don't have to worry all the time about TRPs and might have audience for all genres.

Ideally that what I would have wanted out of TV
Lil bit of educating my children about traditions and values through the mode of entertaiment, coz I learned a lot from Doordarshan and AIR in my times.
Now I live away from my country, so I want the sense of belonging.
Earlier in India I used to watch the Hollywood movies and Western soaps
Now in NYC, I only crave for something Indian to make me feel grounded and in contact of life that I know of. 😕


And here is the producer speak
Now coming back to our society shown in TV. What is the take-back from the SOAPs for our modern Indian woman? Are we getting the required vibes from our media <read TV here>? Based on the character, we see some of our SOAP women are trendy, affluent, they speak English, they portray themselves to have gone around the world, they are confident, they are liberal, they are righteous, they are enterprising, they are vampish. We have all kinds. But on an average, the soaps are catering to the mass Indian women who are not facing the world, rather they are the non-urban Indian women. They are fascinated by the looks of our ladies on screen, they are intrigued by their confidence, they are elated by the power, ego, and cruelty portrayed on screen. They visualize their fantasies <if I might say so, as I believe every woman wants to be different from what they been for years>. Many Indian women still undergo the suppression and oppression. It is a treat for them to watch those things they probably are not able to do themselves. But.. but, these same woman do not want or cannot possibly shed their regressive image and become progressive for many reasons we know. They want to be the regressive types only. They still want the same woman in the kitchen, men at the field type notion in the household <mind you, these same women are at the field too earning for the bread but the attitude they prefer is to make the men their lead as that is a safe ground in which they have been playing and taught to play? We cannot blame the makers of the show completely for portraying the regressive woman. After all they want to bake what sells.

We have the set stage now.
The Global Indian Metrocity-bred woman and the non-urban or semi-urban town-bred woman or the B-Class City-bred woman. A recent survey tells us which Indian cities are fastest growing ones. Names like Ghaziabad, Faridabad, Bhopal, Surat, Baroda, Patna came up...

That's the dilemma we are in. Whom to cater ?
Where are the TRP boxes fit ...that some equipement which notes down the metrics?

On a creative level, a balance can be easily maintained. Just bring a good set of creative team.
The creatives can weave magic for both the Metro woman or the semi-urban woman
Take the filmi examples of Do Dooni Char, Welcome to Sajjan pur and Well done Abba

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Posted: 12 years ago
#59

Originally posted by: undisclosed

i come to this discussion being a woman...of north american nationality and of latin american decent...not having much experience watching indian soaps...i am not sure if i can say if the role of woman in indian soaps is regressive if i have not watched many of them myself...i have watched 1 indian soap...and for the most part i read the WU's...however i can speak of a culture shock...my reaction is based on what i know and was raised on...for me many aspects of the female role in indian soaps may seem regressive...but that would be purely based on my notion of a woman of our times should be because of my cultural background...


Undisclosed,

Even as you are from different background, yet you gave a LUCID COMMENTARY on what you perceived of the current day heroine. That perception is exactly my wish to fight. You see, my biggest problem is my existence is slowly being annihilated.

I live in a country where I don't have citizenship rights. I cannot think of this country as mine. I have citizenship of my country, but I cannot vote because I don't have the Voter ID card and that could not be made when I got transferred to different working locations across India or across the world.

On top of it, I don't see my kind of woman being part of literature, art or cinema or over TV

I have not read Chetan Bhagat yet. May be his literature can show a bit of me. 😕
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Posted: 12 years ago
#60

Originally posted by: tvbug2011

@SG Loved your reference to serials in the 80s. How I loved Kachhi Dhoop and the chemistry betn Bhagyashree and AG, SRK and Renuka Shahane in Circus and of course Fauji.
Rajani gave voice to the Indian housewife in those days. Interestingly, even though Udaan had a strong IPS female lead, it still managed to show great chemistry between her and Shekhar Kapur (still droooling...sighhh). And Kitu G's glam airhostess act was nevertheless from a position of strength. Trishna...Lizzie was perfectly rendered as dignified, intelligent, and a woman of backbone. No watering down of her character in this Indian adaptation.

I ask myself, where are those days now ? Where are those years of Super Woman

Why all these women looked natural and with whom we could relate to ?

And why these have been so different from the present Soap Heroine.
Why indeed? Dumbing down is a trend that actually spans media. Starting with the early 90s when audiences and therefore ad revenue fragmented with the influx of Cable & Satellite TV. Newspapers too lost audiences to TV. Newspaper articles grew shorter and simpler - they had to compete with TV for attention. The topics were also dumbed down, selected for popularity, and to appeal to the lowest common denominator. The excuse given was that advertisers ruled. This excuse conveniently allowed editorial integrity to be compromised - to the extent of influencing the themes, topics and slants picked. Ultimately, it was all about financial survival.
Why should it be any different for TV? MTV beat Channel V at its game by Indianising its content to a greater extent than V. Then Star Plus followed suit with ever more Hindi serials. Came Ekta with initially strong female leads(Kahaani Ghar Ghar Ki and Kyunki) in naff OTT glam outfits, and kitchen politics, which lent itself to regressive characterisation. I stopped watching TV serials at that point, and missed out on the Ektafication of Hindi serials. But it's clear that by the time Ekta had ruled for a few years, the template for soap success had been set.
More recently, I remember railing against the abuse of women by a woman in Colors' Na Aana is Des Laado, and again in Balika Vadhu. But those serials kept garnering eyeballs. The channel it seemed had very cleverly segmented its audience by regions, and tailored its serials to the specific audience segments. It had customised the serials to issues and concerns of the audience segments. But instead of wading in with empowered women leads, did the exact opposite. Eventually, disclaimer-of-abuse-against-women-ridden Na Aana had to be shut down. And Balika Vadhu with an empowered female lead now gets as good if not better trps today. Surely that if nothing else should be an object lesson to TV bosses that audiences do appreciate women's empowerment. It's just up to the TV serials to make that message palatable.
Gosh this was a long post. I will retire peacefully now...the bed beckons 😊


Tvbug2011,

I had to quote your entire post..because I am that much in love with your articulation and words used. In few words, you covered the same old "univeral truths"...like the opening line of P&P that we long to see over TV.

We don't ask much. We ask for good chemistry, we ask for sense, empowerment, knowledge, dignity, grit. Is it sucg a big deal ? Didn't we same things in our Mom?

And the bolded para ...how you have brought about the Paper Media Death and consequent dearth of good jounalists who can present reviews to keep up show standards. 👏 👏👏

And last para ...agreed.

Gosh!! Even I need to sleep. Done a lot of posting today. Need to stop 😆

See you all tomorrow.

Madhubala_fan,
thank you for joining us. Will check your posts tomorrow 😊

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