Mahabharat- The Epic: Sources, Variations, Discuss Here Only

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Adhya

@Agni_Jytsona

Sparkler

+ 17

Posted: 7 years ago

#81

no no i was not at all offended just keeping my pov l

Edited by Poorabhforever - 7 years ago

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amritat

@amritat

Sparkler

Posted: 7 years ago

#82

@Poorabhforever, apologies if I am butting in.

Draupadi's Vastraharan may have been interpolation. And by Vastraharan, I mean only the part where Draupadi starts praying to Krishna till the sari extension. The rest of the dragging, abusing, etc is there IMO.

I checked CE; almost all those sequences where Draupadi's disrobing is mentioned by other characters in KMG have been removed by the Critical Edition. However, they have retained the Vastraharan in the main scene.

This leads me to believe, that are two possibilities:

1.) Draupadi was disrobed, or at least an attempt was made. Note, that it was never Krishna but "Dharma" who saved her. Thus the entire sari extension scene may have been either metaphorical or allegorical. In other words, she was about to be disrobed, but Dharma personified covered her up.

Vidur is said to have been an incarnation of Dharma. So maybe it was Vidur who saved her, which the poet wanted to explain in a more subtle way?

This part may have been edited by later Vaishnavites to add prayers to Krishna (which is removed in CE) and raise him to a status of Godhead.

2.) There was no Vastraharan. The actual story was much mo re realistic. The supernatural elements were completely added later.

My opinion lies somewhere between the two.

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SweetRogue

@SweetRogue

Explorer

Posted: 7 years ago

#83

Divine/ Not divine is actually pretty subjective and depends on personal belief. There's no point discussing that. Athiests like me would always have a hard time in believing in miracles. Other people do believe in them. The only thing that can be said about it is that to each his own.

Regarding Vastraharan, I'm not sure about KMG but BORI doesn't mention Krishna's intervention. It only says that Draupadi's garment became never ending and hence she could not be completely disrobed. If I'm not wrong, even KMG says that Dharma provided Draupadi's garment. I personally think that others intervened before Dushasan could succesfully do it. There are some who believe that she was only dragged and verbally abused. At the end of the day, the fact remains that even without VH, what happened to her was pretty heinuous and constituted sexual assault. To drag an innocent woman by her hair when she's heavily menstruating in an assembly full of not just her relatives but also strangers and then verbally abuse her, is disgusting to say the least.

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Brahmaputra

@Brahmaputra

Sparkler

+ 2

Posted: 7 years ago

#84

Okay. I have tried to read Southern Recension. It is difficult to get in print. The only online version I found was a mess.😆 I stopped reading after a few initial chapters. So I have no idea what happened in Sabha Parva there.

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amritat

@amritat

Sparkler

Posted: 7 years ago

#85

True that SweetRogue.

It is not about the disrobing or being called a wh**e only. The whole incident in itself, starting right from the gambling of humans till the end is bad - irrespective of whether it happens to a man or a woman...a Queen or a dasi...to a noble woman or prostitute...to Draupadi or Subhadra...or whoever.

Edited by amritat - 7 years ago

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Brahmaputra

@Brahmaputra

Sparkler

+ 2

Posted: 7 years ago

#86

What confusing me about Vastraharana is that in CE, Draupadi came to sabha before Dhrit, even before Dury sent Dushy. It is there, right after Yudhi sending his trusted messenger and before Dury sent Dushy. If that is to be true, then Draupadi was not dragged by Dushy into Sabha. If she was initially not dragged, as against what she herself repeated again and again to Krishna, how can we believe whatever else she told? Forget others. Also, in Udyoga parva, where she talks to Krishna about her humiliation in Sabha, she clearly says that she herself went there. [Debroy translated that partially correct]. I don't think any woman treated like Drau by men would never have told anyone that I went there.

Besides, Vidura, while Yudhi was staking, openly advised Dhrit to team up with Ps and kill Dury. Vidura again spoke harshy against Dury after Yudhi gambled Drau. So it js difficult to think that such a fearless man said or did nothing when she was being dragged and humiliated, but waited until she was about to be stripped.

These things are confusing me. Someone please try to show them differently.

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SweetRogue

@SweetRogue

Explorer

Posted: 7 years ago

#87

Regarding Karna being addressed by that name in Debroy's translation Drishtadyumna also addreses Vasusena as Karna, when he describes Draupadi's suitors. And this couldn't be Dhritrashtra's son Karna because he mentions the sons of Dhritrashtra separately and says that they are accompanied by Karna.

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riti4u

@riti4u

Stunner

+ 7

Posted: 7 years ago

#88

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra
What confusing me about Vastraharana is that in CE, Draupadi came to sabha before Dhrit, even before Dury sent Dushy. It is there, right after Yudhi sending his trusted messenger and before Dury sent Dushy. If that is to be true, then Draupadi was not dragged by Dushy into Sabha. If she was initially not dragged, as against what she herself repeated again and again to Krishna, how can we believe whatever else she told? Forget others. Also, in Udyoga parva, where she talks to Krishna about her humiliation in Sabha, she clearly says that she herself went there. [Debroy translated that partially correct]. I don't think any woman treated like Drau by men would never have told anyone that I went there.

Besides, Vidura, while Yudhi was staking, openly advised Dhrit to team up with Ps and kill Dury. Vidura again spoke harshy against Dury after Yudhi gambled Drau. So it js difficult to think that such a fearless man said or did nothing when she was being dragged and humiliated, but waited until she was about to be stripped.

These things are confusing me. Someone please try to show them differently.

May be they needed something to justify the destruction that war caused..and thus this was built up. No offence to anyone but it is a possibility that to paint one side villainous since story is being narrated by someone belonging to other group ..they would have exaggerated an event.. and made it something like disrobing..

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amritat

@amritat

Sparkler

Posted: 7 years ago

#89

@Brahmaputra-

There are two instances where we see this inconsistency. One is, when Yudisthir asks her to come to the Sabha.

Another is, during Bhagwana Yana Parva in Udyog Parva. This is the exact citation from CE.

O Keshava! Such a woman was grabbed by the hair and was molested when she went to

the assembly hall, while the sons of Pandu looked on and you were still alive.

Fitzerberg (cant remember his name correctly) opines that the first one instance may have been bcoz of parallel narratives from different storytellers being written down.

Second one, I dont think this is any inconsistency. Draupadi's words are sufficient to explain what is she is implying. She has iterated her words many times to these people, and need not have repeated everything in details. Just my opinion, though.

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SweetRogue

@SweetRogue

Explorer

Posted: 7 years ago

#90

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra
What confusing me about Vastraharana is that in CE, Draupadi came to sabha before Dhrit, even before Dury sent Dushy. It is there, right after Yudhi sending his trusted messenger and before Dury sent Dushy. If that is to be true, then Draupadi was not dragged by Dushy into Sabha. If she was initially not dragged, as against what she herself repeated again and again to Krishna, how can we believe whatever else she told? Forget others. Also, in Udyoga parva, where she talks to Krishna about her humiliation in Sabha, she clearly says that she herself went there. [Debroy translated that partially correct]. I don't think any woman treated like Drau by men would never have told anyone that I went there.

Besides, Vidura, while Yudhi was staking, openly advised Dhrit to team up with Ps and kill Dury. Vidura again spoke harshy against Dury after Yudhi gambled Drau. So it js difficult to think that such a fearless man said or did nothing when she was being dragged and humiliated, but waited until she was about to be stripped.

These things are confusing me. Someone please try to show them differently.

Debroy himself mentions the logical incoherence in text in the footnotes and says that it is the result of interpolations but he himself doesn't mention what he considers an interpolation. I have the book with me and the events are as follows:-

1- Pratikamin is ordered to bring Draupadi. He goes and explains the situation to her.

2. Draupadi orders Pratikamin to ask Yudhishtira whether he lost himself first or her. Pratikamin does as instructed. Yudhishtira doesn't respond. Duryodhana orders Pratikamin to go and tell Draupadi to come and ask the question herself.

3. Pratikamin goes to Draupadi again. They have a conversation. After that it is mentioned that Yudhishtira sent his own messenger and Draupadi is described as being in her menses, clad in a single garment, weeping and standing before her father in law. Then Duryodhana orders the Pratikamin again to bring her there. But Pratikamin is scared so Duryodhana orders Dusshasana to do it and the whole dragging etc. Follows.

Wasn't Yudhishtira a slave by this point. How did he get access to his personal trusted messenger? Why did Duryodhana allow Yudhishtira to send his own messenger when Pratikamin was already sent by him? If she was already present in front of the assembly why does Duryodhana order Pratikamin again. The part from where Duryodhan sends Pratikamin again to her standing in front of her father in law itself is fishy because in her conversation with Pratikamin Draupadi speaks of destiny but that itself goes heavily against her own ideas, when she's discussing the whole thing with Yudhishtira in Vana Parva she heavily condemns destiny when Yudhishtira uses it as his defense. Besides, the dragging by Dusshasana is referenced multiple times and not just by Draupadi. Krishna promises the destruction of 'her' enemies twice. Bheema refers to Draupadi's insult, Duryodhana speaks of it later, even Dusshasana himself taunts Bhima by saying ''this is the hand I used to drag your wife". If Draupadi wasn't mistreated her entire presence in the exile leaving her kids behind, her active role in war discussions, Kunti's message to the Pandavas, the oaths of Bheema and Arjuna etc. Don't make sense at all. Besides no one ever makes a reference to Draupadi coming to the Sabha by herself later. Not even Duryodhana or Dusshasana. Why would they silently take such accusations unless they were true?

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