Mahabharat- The Epic: Sources, Variations, Discuss Here Only - Page 21

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SweetRogue thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
Sanskrit is a very complicated language and words are used interchangeably. In these cases, I don't have much choice except taking the translation at face value. According to the available translations, Duryodhana was more focused on the menial work aspect of her being a slave. It is Karna who brings up the sexual aspect. Bhima makes an oath regarding him and Draupadi too brings up his name to Krishna. I don't think they'd do it without sufficient provocation. Of course everything is open to interpretation.
bhas1066 thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
Vaishampayana said, Having heard the words that a woman had
become the salvation for the sons of Pandu, Bhimasena was extremely
hurt. In the midst of the Kurus, he said unhappily, "Devala has said
that there are three stars for a manoffspring, deeds and learning,
since these are the source of creation. When the body has lost life and is
hollow and impure, discarded by relatives, these are the three that
survive. But our light has become dark, because our wife has been
humiliated. O Dhananjaya! How can offspring from a defiled one serve
any purpose?

Quite shocked by this attitude of Bhima here!!

Edited by bhas1066 - 6 years ago
amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago

Originally posted by: bhas1066

Vaishampayana said, Having heard the words that a woman had
become the salvation for the sons of Pandu, Bhimasena was extremely
hurt. In the midst of the Kurus, he said unhappily, "Devala has said
that there are three stars for a manoffspring, deeds and learning,
since these are the source of creation. When the body has lost life and is
hollow and impure, discarded by relatives, these are the three that
survive. But our light has become dark, because our wife has been
humiliated. O Dhananjaya! How can offspring from a defiled one serve
any purpose?

Quite shocked by this attitude of Bhima here!!


Yes. And surprisingly it is the otherwise silent and may I say, indifferent Arjun that corrects Bhima with astonishing progressiveness of mind.
SweetRogue thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago

Originally posted by: Siddhantmodi

Actually Draupadi was never disrobed as per CE mahabharata. It mentioned dussasan take away her upper garment and next uncovered. There are many upper garments of draupadi in Critical edition.


Actually the critical edition (at least Debroy's translation) mentions that he took away her garment which was immediately replaced. So yes, the disrobing does happen. And she's repeatedly referred as being clothed in a single garment, if I'm not wrong, so there's no question of upper or lower garment.
guenhwyvar thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
Oh look, it's Facebook posting!



@Amrita -can you ask Meenu if we can have a rule against the copy and pasting of Facebook (or unoriginal) content. All posts should be one's own writing (and if it's found elsewhere and used verbatim, they can cite to it so we can determine if it's a trustworthy source or not). It was one of the biggest issues in the forum pre-show starting, and it would be a shame to see it in this thread.

Obviously, translations are fine, but it's citing to blogs and facebook posts that are an issue.

That being said, Mr. SiddhantModi - let's take a crack at your "original" copy and pasting.

I'll start with this - why did you stop there? Why did you not continue to "PART-3 : KARNA AS THE PROTECTOR OF DRAUPADI".

Anyhow ...

I do not agree with your interpretation, because north India is not Antartica for her to wear multiple garments. Further, why were people surprised to see the extra garments? Moreover, Krishna at one point refers to her nakedness in the court.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume you're right...

1. Karna asked Dushana to remove her garment when she clearly did not want to. Do you consider it moral to disrobe a woman because you don't agree with her clothing?

2. Karna asked her to choose a man to have sex with

3. Karna asked her to be taken to the slave house. Clearly, Yuyutsu's history tells us what the purpose of female slaves was in that kingdom.

Even if you take out the disrobing, it was sexual assault. Shining it in the light of "taking away" Draupadi's royalty is, in my honest opinion, a pathetic way of looking at the events.
Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago

I don't accept treating two people in same situation differently. The same logic that is applied to one SHOULD also be applied to another in the same place. Otherwise, that is an act of favouritism. A critical discussion is NOT a place to get emotional. Just keep the facts and discuss.

When Draupadi silently accepted her husbands, even after they sold her, it was according to norms. We shouldn't look it from twenty first century perspective and try to see the big picture. But when she is silent about whatever Karna said or did to her, why is it not according to norms and why twenty first century perspective jumps in there? She said nothing ever against Karna because either she understood his POV that he said or did those things considering her a servant, or she was in love deep enough to forgive him as she did her husbands. No stones please. IT IS NOT MY LOGIC. It has been put forward by others in this same thread before. Yeah, at the end of the day, Drau had NO issue with Karna, except for the laughter. By the time of peace mission, she seemed to overlook even that. Therefore, we also should put behind our sentiments and twenty first century perspectives and see the matter through her eyes and accept her. If Karna actually said or did such stuff, it was her big heart that overlooked him, and forgave him. Who knows? Speaking otherwise only is an insult to her greatness, is my opinion.

Lastly, as I tried to see things from a big picture, as has been suggested, the background of characters came into play. There are many occasions in MBh where how the importance of public opinion could decide a king's fate is discussed in detail. For example, before Laksha Griha episode. Dhrit & Dury discuss in detail how taking any forcible action against Pandavas could affect them. Dhrit is even afraid that people would kill them all. But Dhrit finally had to give Half kingdom to Ps because his public opinion had gone down by what Purochana [Dury] secretly did. Dhrit, Karna, Dushy or Shakuni were not a part of this plan. Dury did it all by himself. And that secret died with him, except for Vidura suspecting it and informing pandavas the same. Yet, not even Vidura seemed to blame Dury for that. The point is, despite Purochana being accused for trying to burn Pandavas, no one did anything against Dhrit possibly because there was no direct evidence.

One of the primary duties of a king was to protect women. [not that they always did it, but they maintained that image] This I think was because an insulted woman was considered a blame and shame to her family and kula, not because they had feminist ideas. If we remember Bhima's words, he was doubtful of reaching 'heaven' if his son born from 'insulted' wife did his funeral rites. In such a society, if a queen was not protected in public from such insults, what was the fate of the general women? their families? their kulas? their husbands and sons going 'heaven' after death? How the public would've reacted to that? Had Draupadi been insulted as told, the next thing to happen was dethroning Dhrit or whoever held that position. Nothing unfortunate happened to Dhrit or anyone on his side after DS. And the most interesting possibility of such an insult would've been Pandavas getting to rule entire Kuru kingdom, immediately, at the cost of Dury's stupidity. Dury was never too foolish to miss that.

Dhrit too was quite intelligent. He immediately corrected Dury when he said Drau that she could be freed if she accepted Pandavas were not her lords, and granted Drau any boon she asked. Dhrit clearly had the insight to the future brought by Dury's words. It is quite unlikely that he kept silence at every insult that happened before. And Gandhaari, who told her son 'yato dharmah tato jaya' [victory is on the side of the right ones] when he went to see her before the war, was also present there. And she DID convince Dhrit to censure Dury and grant Drau whatever she wished for. It is quite unlikely that she too kept silence on previous humiliations. So were Bhishma, Drona and Vidura, who all always supported Pandavas, surprisingly didn't react to any insult.

We cannot 'inverse' that background and take away the nature of these characters just to fit them into a perspective.

I am in no way suggesting that Dury & co would never have done a thing like that. What I am saying is they would never have attempted it in public. Many kings and various other people were present in Dyuta Sabha. Had Kauravas been just common men, I would have believed they did it. But Dury was a royalty, a power-hungry king. As rightly been pointed out before, it is better to look at the nigger picture, to not scale things by today's sentiments and thrust today's psychology onto MBh characters forgetting that they were born and brought up as politicians and whatever they did always had political meanings than sentimental ones.

Edited by Brahmaputra - 6 years ago
Agni_Jytsona thumbnail
Posted: 6 years ago
in my honest opnion what bheem meant is that how can drau son respect any of the pandavas or fulfill their duties towards them the reason being that pandavas were also mute spectator of drau s insult this i think is more consisent with bhim s character as he was the most vocal against drau s insult in dyut sabha


Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

in my honest opnion what bheem meant is that how can drau son respect any of the pandavas or fulfill their duties towards them the reason being that pandavas were also mute spectator of drau s insult this i think is more consisent with bhim s character as he was the most vocal against drau s insult in dyut sabha



He was only trying to make sense of the popular opinion of Devala. Devala was a descendant of Kashyapa and one of the authors of Rig Veda. So the general public also were likely to have the same sentiments.
amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
@Brahmaputra
I would disagree with your line of argument. Not bcoz of any feminism or favouritism, but bcoz of what is stated in the epic. And note, I do believe that the disrobing and sari extension was most likely interpolation.

1.) IIRC, Draupadi does not blame Dushasana many times either. Does that imply that that she had forgiven him or understood his "POV" of why he must have molested her as a slave? Or that she was in "deep love" with Dushy?

It is interesting to note, that Draupadi never blames anyone as much as she blames Duryodhan, though he had done her less harm at the dice game. Whenever she speaks about her perpetrators, she does so collectively and describes what was done to her in a collective manner: "I was dragged to the Sabha in a single garment" (done by Dushasana), "They wanted to forcefully make me a slave, and enjoy me as a slave" (Suggested by Karna and Dushasana). But Duryodhan gets blamed singularly.

The reason is simple. Duryodhan was the crown prince/King. The rest were mere sidekicks to him in the eyes of Pandavas and Draupadi.

It is generally perceived that Draupadi wanted war only for her own insult, but that is only partially true. The dice-game is the tipping point. But she also recollects how the Pandavas were continuously deceived by their cousins from childhood. She seemed to have wanted justice not just for herself, but for all the crimes she believed had been inflicted upon her family. The dice-game was the last nail in the coffin. In light of this, Draupadi was pragmatic enough to see that irrespective of what Karna said or Dushy did, it was Duryodhan who was behind everything, being the Crown Prince and the leader of the gang.

So, Draupadi not blaming Karna singularly again and again does not necessarily imply that she forgave him or that his words were less disrespectful or complete interpolation. That she mentioned his laughter once singularly right after the incident is telling of his role in the fiasco. Coz, even Shakuni was laughing at her IIRC, but he never gets blamed for that.

2.) Now, coming to judging characters with sensibilities based on era.

What Yudisthir did was wrong. What DDSK was also wrong. By 21st Century standards, both parties would be jailed. But was it the same in Mahabharata era?
Forget about Arthashastra, Manu Smriti and other theoritical rule books, and let's focus on what actually happened as per the text.

Not only Draupadi, none of the Pandavas or Kunti or Krishna ever accused Yudisthir of human staking (only Bhima fleetingly gets angry at Yudi during dice game, but he too reverts back to his patriarchal self soon after). But IIRC, everybody acknowledged that the treatment meted out to Draupadi by DDSK was wrong even in that era. Not bcoz they were feminists or anything. Not just bcoz she was a "Queen" either. But bcoz she was a relative and the "brother's wife" (as pointed out by Krishna).

Going by this, either human staking was complete interpolation and that is why nobody blamed him. Or it was considered wrong but not a big crime in those days. Or, everybody agreed that Yudi was cheated into it, and thus deemed him innocent.

-------------
At the last point, a question comes to my mind.
You say that Duryodhan would have never done something like this to a woman in public for the sake of his image. That makes me wonder, how come Yudi was not concerned about the same!

Going by this logic, the whole human staking itself must have been entirely interpolation too. Otherwise, which man would sell his citizens, brothers, wife and even himself so publicly to gain kingdom!




Edited by amritat - 6 years ago
Agni_Jytsona thumbnail
Posted: 6 years ago
@amrita why do you think disrobing is later interplotation?

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