The Throne of Hastinapur - Page 4

Originally posted by: shyam.rathi

If even I and you in today's Kaliyuga are able to know that the varna and caste systems are wrong, then why was it not possible for Yudhisthirji in Dwapar-yuga, that too after he being an incarnation of Dharma himself.. Even if our scriptures divide the society based on their birth as Brahmins or Shudra, will you follow it in your life? No, because you know that it is wrong.. So, Yudhisthirji had a chance of correcting this at the time of assignment of punishments, but he went with the traditions which we all know as unfair.. Actually, yes, I will. I am a Brahmin, and I follow the rules of Brahmin caste. I do not eat meat, and never have and never will. I study our puranas and scruptures (which is a must for Brahmins). I go to the temple very regularly, My family does Satyanarayana Vratas once a year. Our family participates in every single Hindu festical/pooja (which is required of a Brahmin), I fast, and most importantly, I will never marry someone who is not a Brahmin. And when did I tell you that I thought the caste system was wrong? Think what you want. I am a supporter of the caste system. I don't believe in caste superiority, or caste violence, but I personally don't think the caste system is wrong.

As far as the idea that "one who breaks the rules of his/her caste is a sinner", let me point out that Maharshi Ved Vyasa was born at a fisherman's place, Maharshi Valmiki was a hunter by profession and Maharshi Vishwamitra a king from his birth.. So, it was not wrong for someone to change his caste or varna after birth. So it was not a sinful task even at that times..

Veda Vyasa's father was Parasara Maharshi (a brahmin), so Veda Vyasa was a Brahmin, because a child always gets his/her father's caste (if their parents inter-marry into other castes).

Also, "hunter" or a "fisherman" is not a caste. They have to belong to one of the four castes (Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra).

One more thing I forgot to mention. One always has the choice to work towards a higher caste, but they may never go to a lower one. Valmikiji and Vishvamithra (who was a kshatriya) had the choice to become Brahmins, because a Brahmin was the highest caste, and giving up materialistic pleasures to take the life of a sanyasin was always applauded. Valmikiji and Vishvamithra meditated for hundreds of years on God, and they soon became two of the most respected Brahmin Sages of our puranas. Vishvamithra, originally a kshatriya, even became a Brahmarshi.

It is never wrong to work towards a higher caste, but it is considered a sin in our scriptures to go to a lower one.

But, once again, I'm not criticisng a great person like Yudhisthirji for just this one incident.. he was and is one of the most important figure of our mythology.. This incident is just an idea that he lost a realistic chance of changing the wrong traditions of society when he decided to assign the punishments.. Once again, what our society today considers wrong was not wrong back in the other three yugas, and I have our scriptures and puranas to back me up. It is also not right of us to think our society rules are better than the society rules of back then. For our lifestyle, our rules suit us, and nothing is wrong with that, but the lifestyle of the Dwapara Yuga, Treta Yuga, and Krita Yuga was very severe. People did not look for the easy way out like we do today, and there was more hard work involved in everything. The caste system kept people together, and gave them a place in society.

Yudhisthira was the son of Dharma, and he received the titles of Dharmaraja and Ajatashatru, only because he followed Dharma rule for rule. If society rules were wrong, don't you think the Great Maha Munis, who could look into the past, present, and future, and the Gods would have told him so? Don't you think Prabhu Shri Krishna, the image of Lord Vishnu himself, the upholder of Dharma and righteousness, would have told Yudhisthira that caste system was wrong and to abolish it? But he did not, because Shri Krishna approved of the caste system. That means that the caste system is not wrong. No matter what we think, we must let the final word go to our Gods like Shri Rama and Shri Krishna, who never protested against the caste system.

Also, think about this. Back in the Ramayan and Mahabharat days, society was more at peace and harmony, and it followed the caste system, but think of today. Most people do not follow the caste system, and is there peace in society? Is there harmony? Many Brahmins and Vaishyas today eat meat, which is really disgusting, because a Brahmin and Vaishya are not allowed to even touch meat, let alone eat it. Our scriptures say that only Kshatriyas and Shudras can eat meat. It is not sinful to them.

Originally posted by: akhl

The answer is that it is a fact that in those days brahmanas (in most of cases) were more knowledgeable than shudras. Yudhisthir merely kept this fact in mind.

Originally posted by: shyam.rathi

Which was certainly a wrong practice and a clear violation of human rights.. Yudhisthirji could have corrected it.. Why should someone be classified as brahmin just because of his birth and be given a license to become knowledgeable?

Originally posted by: godisone

When did human rights come into practice? What we think of as human rights now were not the same human rights of before. You cannot accuse Yudhisthira of breaking a law that came into practice in the yuga after his. Being a son of Dharma, his job was not to go against every society rule that would be deemed unfair in the far future. His job was to follow the Vedas and Upanishads, take the advice of great sages, and rule according to our scriptures. If he did something that is against morality today, that is not his fault, because he took the scriptures as his guide and that's it. Dharma is not necessarily thinking in a way our society does today. It is following our Vedas and Upanishads, which can never be wrong.

Why should someone be classified as brahmin just because of his birth and be given a license to become knowledgeable?

Because it says so in our Vedas and Upanishads, which are unquestionable. They were written by Lord Brahma, one of the divine trinity, and he never speaks a lie. If you find doubts with anything in the Vedas or Upanishads, please talk to a Hindu priest, who can explain much better than me. There is only so much I know about the Vedas and Upanishads.😊

Moreover guys, we are deviating largely from the topic. "The Throne of Hastinapur" turned into "Yudhisthira's Dharma", so if any of you want to continue this topic, please create another thread.

Originally posted by: shyam.rathi

Which was certainly a wrong practice and a clear violation of human rights.. Yudhisthirji could have corrected it.. Why should someone be classified as brahmin just because of his birth and be given a license to become knowledgeable?

Originally posted by: rongna

well it's true that human rights came into practice only recently. not only in countries where traditions and traditional practices such as india is still really strong but also in western countries such as united states, even in europe and australia. but saying that the vedas and upanishads can never be wrong then how come today modern society thinks it is wrong, the caste system or varnas. if the vedas and upanishads are unquestionable then why are these questionable now. many people now say and think that differentiating other people and treating other people differently just because by their caste system or varnas and not giving them the same judgment and opportunity just because of their varna is wrong. it will be seen as disgust if a person treats another person differently just because they came from a lower caste now, if we are to follow the vedas and upanishads then even today we have to follow them which means that a person who comes from different caste should be treated diferently, and those people who came from high social caste should be treated with the utmost respects.

Originally posted by: godisone

The caste system is not prejudice or racism like people think. The underlying message of it is that not everyone can do everything. That's why the society was divided into four parts: Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, and Sudras. Each caste had its own duties and responsibilites, and each was valued by God.

For a society to be truly harmonious, it needs many things: a ruler (s), God's blessings, good harvest, tradesmen, etc. But not everyone can do everything. That's why the jobs were divided. A brahmin's sole duty was to appease God, get his blessings not only for himself and his family, but for the hole society as well. Brahmins were generally priests and sages in the olden days. Next, the Kshatriyas were generally the Kings, warriors, noblesman of the society. Their sole duty was to protect the people from outside invasion, spread righteousness (Dharma), and punish wrong-doers.

Next, the Vaishyas consisted of Merchants, shop keepers, money-lenders, etc. Their overall duty was to oversee the economical aspect of the society, make sure money was circulating, and so on. Then the Sudras were the ones who plowed the fields, gathered the harvest, and made sure food was plenty. This was hard work, and in no way lessened their value, but this left barely any time for education. But this was their profession, their career, so they also had no need for the education the other castes required.

Each caste needed only enough education that their career required, so a brahmin getting more education than a sudra was not unfair, because their career was different A Sudra did not view this as unfair either, because they were satisfied with their career, and moreover, they had the choice to go to an upper caste by penance. As I already wrote, one of a lower caste always had the choice to move up, but it was wrong for one of a higher caste to go lower. To God, what caste a person belonged to was not different, but whether they followed their caste's Dharma.

Think about it this way. In school, we have to take all sorts of subjects, some of which we will not need for our career. Haven't some of you ever wished that some of these subjects did not exist, because they were of no use to the career you wanted to go into?

Originally posted by: godisone

And Brahmins received respect, because they communicated with God through their prayers. They were seen as second to God, because of their knowledge in the Vedas and Upanishads.

Originally posted by: shyam.rathi

I fully endorse the fact that not everyone is required to get all the education and knowledge available.. but how unfair it is to decide that about a person at the time of his birth only, without even asking to the born individual? it's not proper to support this even though it is mentioned in Vedas and Purans..
Regarding the selection of subjects in school, l should be allowed to mention that the subjects are not selected on the basis of one's parents or caste.. Even at my university, one is free to select the subjects as per one's interest and future goals.. how ridiculous is that a student is forced to take business courses and other being forced to take only religious courses just because he or she is born to a merchant and a brahmin families respectively?
These varna-system was a way to force a hierarchy level in a very unfair way.. I'm happy to live in a society where these things are not acknowledge by law anymore.. we can talk all this because I and you come from higher casts.. I doubt if one could have said the same words if he or she had been from a lower caste.. Personally, my policy is to never question our scriptures, whether they may seem fair or unfair to us, because they were written by greater people than us. Who are we to question them? Who are we to claim we have enough knowledge to say something in our scriptures was "fair" or "unfair"? It doesn't matter if it was fair or unfair. We have to follow our scriptures if we want to attain moksha. You feel that the caste system is unfair and cruel. Fine. But I don't. I never thought/think the caste system is unfair, and this issue cannot be proved like other issues can. It is a matter of pure opinion. Once again, we are deviating greatly from the topic, so if you want to discuss this further, please open another thread.



It was because they were the only individuals who were allowed to do so.. Every human being at those times had this capability, born in a brahmin family or not..

Originally posted by: godisone

Personally, my policy is to never question our scriptures, whether they may seem fair or unfair to us, because they were written by greater people than us. Who are we to question them? Who are we to claim we have enough knowledge to say something in our scriptures was "fair" or "unfair"? It doesn't matter if it was fair or unfair. We have to follow our scriptures if we want to attain moksha. You feel that the caste system is unfair and cruel. Fine. But I don't. I never thought/think the caste system is unfair, and this issue cannot be proved like other issues can. It is a matter of pure opinion. Once again, we are deviating greatly from the topic, so if you want to discuss this further, please open another thread.