Jodha Akbar 69-72a: Tangled emotions

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sashashyam

@sashashyam

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 9 years ago

#31

Well, one takes it to be the Ganga, for it is not as though one can have a Gangasnanam in Chennai, or often any kind of snanam at all, given the acute water shortage till the govt. make rain water harvesting compulsory!

As for Jodha colliding with Ruqaiya, of course inside the palace harem she does not need a veil. In the streets of Agra, she should not be shown displaying her lovely face to all and sundry! And as to why she wass running, it was to get to Moti, who had fallen down and hurt her foot. I suppose the explanation is that for Jodha, Moti is a sakhi, not a daasi.

Shyamala

Originally posted by: karkuzhali
Dear Shyamala,

No "Gangasnanam" but Warranora Lake Water -through-Sydney -Water pipe snanam aachchu!

About the comment that Jodha is seen walking along the streets of Agra without a veil, at least the duppatta she wears over her head can be considered as the veil. But I do not remember any of you commented about her running inside the Agra fort looking for Moti Bai and colliding with Ruqaiah, even on the very first day of her entering the in-laws' home! How very out of place it looked!

Saraswathi.

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karkuzhali

@karkuzhali

Inactive

Posted: 9 years ago

#32

Dear Ashwinee, thank you for your reply.

Wish you a happy Deepavali!

I think both Jalal and Jodha very badly need (marriage) counselling at this stage.

There is no denying of the fact that Jalal dares to enter Amer in disguise, only after he hears about the beauty and valour of Jodha from the sepoy as well as Sheriffuddin. "If Amer is the crown, Jodha is the Jewel on it.." He definitely wants to get/possess her at any cost, and this urge gets intensified due to the events that happened during the process of his rescuing Abdul from the prison. It becomes a challenge for him which he wants to win. Though eventually he wants to marry her to suppress her ego, we find that the initial attraction he had of her, dominates his other feelings.

Whereas Jodha marries him with full of hatred - hating him because he is a "cruel and heartless king"; and with shock and disappointment because she believes that

she has been cheated by all people around her . Under the circumstances, when she enters Jalal's place, her heart is like a scratched slate. Till this time, Jalal or Jodha or anyone else has not tried to remove the scratches and prepare the 'slate' ready for writings the words of endearment. I can say that Jodha actually feels and expresses sparks of happiness on a couple of occasions- during the sword practice and when he appreciates her poem. But both of them are so obsessed with their own stubbornness, they run parallely like railway track without a meeting point.

Saraswathi Aunty.

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Donjas

@Donjas

Dazzler

Posted: 9 years ago

#33

Thanks for the response. You asked how Prithviraj won against Ghori the first time around? Yes, that battle was discussed too in that program about the decisive battle of Tarain.

Reason is surprise and luck. Ghori never got the chance to properly lay down his strategy. The undisciplined mob of Prithiviraj's army closed the distance on the enemy. Then in a hand to hand battle, Prithviraj's brother hurt Ghori. So the invader Ghori immediately decided to withdraw. There was no question of pursuit to destroy the fleeing enemy because these were elite horse archers, and Prithviraj had almost no cavalry.

Ghori regrouped and came back a year later, with a clearly thought out strategy to deal with the undisciplined and relatively poorly trained army of Prithviraj, which incidentally was atleast 4 or 5 times his force. What happened next you will find more interesting if you watch the lectures. They are informative and not the least dry, instead they are chock full of diagrams and pictures.

It was proven time and time again in antiquity, that you cannot allow Steppe military forces to bring their cavalry into fray, especially 'horse archers'. The Russians have first hand knowledge of it, the Mongols inflicted a similar crushing defeat on Moscow princes in the battle of Kalka river, some 100 years later.

Originally posted by: sashashyam
My dear Donjas,

What a crisp and yet comprehensive set of comments! And of course I am very pleased that you liked this post far more than I had expected. I am flattered and quite humbled by the warmth of your praise! My supplementary remarks here are in blue.

Shyamala

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karkuzhali

@karkuzhali

Inactive

Posted: 9 years ago

#34

Dear Shyamala,

I do not mean Jodh's veil, but about her running this way inside the fort (as she was introduced in epi 1).

Saraswathi.

Originally posted by: sashashyam
Well, one takes it to be the Ganga, for it is not as though one can have a Gangasnanam in Chennai, or often any kind of snanam at all, given the acute water shortage till the govt. make rain water harvesting compulsory!

As for Jodha colliding with Ruqaiya, of course inside the palace harem she does not need a veil. In the streets of Agra, she should not be shown displaying her lovely face to all and sundry! And as to why she wass running, it was to get to Moti, who had fallen down and hurt her foot. I suppose the explanation is that for Jodha, Moti is a sakhi, not a daasi.

Shyamala

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Zhanna

@alffim

Navigator

Posted: 9 years ago

#35

Originally posted by: sashashyam
My dear Zhanna,

It is very thougtful of you to take extra trouble to comment on this post, and I am very pleased that you liked it so much. Especially the alternative lines I wrote for my Jodha!

Shyamala Di

Dear Shyamala Di!

Thank you! I very much liked your analysis and I already got some answers!
I like the idea that Jalal tries to "save face" for Jodha, if Bharmal doesn't take her.
I would love to write more, but very tiring after work and my computer is bad (text disappear). And my problem of translation ...😳

Your alternative line - wonderful!!! Since my childhood I did not like and was not friends with girls who cry and whine. There is nothing worse than women-vinegar. :) Your Jodha-Pepper is much more interesting and intelligent. I think many people would like to read your version JA. 😊

She was super confused. Jodha she was not sure her marriage and what it meant for her. It is used to complaining about her unhappiness, and blame Jalal she is now unhappy that she could not do it anymore. No decision would be her and only her. Either way, she lost. If she blamed him for deserting her. If she decides to stay, the choice of his being Begum also be it. She could not blame him for having made it.

I once read a lot of memories of people who lived through 2 World War in captivity or concentration camps .. To die at once, in a fit - this was easily without losing dignity. But, if not killed immediately, then LIVE with dignity in these circumstances was very difficult.
I think if whould Jodha that for the salvation of Amer she will die at once - she showed a model and an example, and would be happy, but she had to live.

I also think,as like Jalal sincerely offended on Jodha from her hatred for him in Amer, when she did not know him personally, but so much hates. I think he first heard WHAT people think of him. 😛 (To assume - one thing, and that in the eye - other...). But and Jodha sincerely doesn't understand: "I have something for that?" She was first confronted with the hatred for her. Her, unlike Jalal, always loved.

But I don't agree that she can't blamed for Jalal "If she opts to stay then the choice of being his begum would also be hers. She could not blame him for having forced her to."
But I think she would shall invite her dad and blame them both...

True, I don't understand such a thing: in the 16th century and in Russia and in India and anywhere in the world, daughter married under duress. Especially in Royal families. Therefore, Jodha was brought up, if not in subjection to the husband, but the compromise with him.
Then her confrontation either failure of writers, or, as you correctly wrote, subconscious resentment of Jodha that Jalal "resisted" her... 😃

Edited by alffim - 9 years ago

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Donjas

@Donjas

Dazzler

Posted: 9 years ago

#36

The example of Russian experience in world war 2 to illustrate your point was very interesting. Thanks for a thoughtful and incisive analysis.

Originally posted by: alffim

Dear Shyamala Di!

Thank you! I very much liked your analysis and I already got some answers!
I like the idea that Jalal tries to "save face" for Jodha, if Bharmal doesn't take her.
I would love to write more, but very tiring after work and my computer is bad (text disappear). And my problem of translation ...😳

Your alternative line - wonderful!!! Since my childhood I did not like and was not friends with girls who cry and whine. There is nothing worse than women-vinegar. :) Your Jodha-Pepper is much more interesting and intelligent. I think many people would like to read your version JA. 😊

She was super confused. Jodha she was not sure her marriage and what it meant for her. It is used to complaining about her unhappiness, and blame Jalal she is now unhappy that she could not do it anymore. No decision would be her and only her. Either way, she lost. If she blamed him for deserting her. If she decides to stay, the choice of his being Begum also be it. She could not blame him for having made it.

I once read a lot of memories of people who lived through 2 World War in captivity or concentration camps .. To die at once, in a fit - this was easily without losing dignity. But, if not killed immediately, then LIVE with dignity in these circumstances was very difficult.
I think if whould Jodha that for the salvation of Amer she will die at once - she showed a model and an example, and would be happy, but she had to live.

I also think,as like Jalal sincerely offended on Jodha from her hatred for him in Amer, when she did not know him personally, but so much hates. I think he first heard WHAT people think of him. 😛 (To assume - one thing, and that in the eye - other...). But and Jodha sincerely doesn't understand: "I have something for that?" She was first confronted with the hatred for her. Her, unlike Jalal, always loved.

But I don't agree that she can't blamed for Jalal "If she opts to stay then the choice of being his begum would also be hers. She could not blame him for having forced her to."
But I think she would shall invite her dad and blame them both...

True, I don't understand such a thing: in the 16th century and in Russia and in India and anywhere in the world, daughter married under duress. Especially in Royal families. Therefore, Jodha was brought up, if not in subjection to the husband, but the compromise with him.
Then her confrontation either failure of writers, or, as you correctly wrote, subconscious resentment of Jodha that Jalal "resisted" her... 😃

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sashashyam

@sashashyam

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 9 years ago

#37

This is very interesting! Thanks for giving me the heads up on the first battle of Tarain. I shall definitely watch this episode in the Decisive Battles series. Did Prithviraj not capture Ghori and then release him unhurt when he begged for it? I always thought that this was very foolish of Prithviraj, otherwise a very brave king, for he opened the way for Ghori's attack the next year, where he lost. Did Jaichand not invite Ghori to come again, as all of us in India believe?

Yes, there seems to have been a quantum shift in battle tactics around this time, with the introduction of mounted archers in the invading army. That is how Genghis Khan conquered such a large swathe of Asia and Europe. His soldiers apparently used to live on horseback! When this kind of upgrading is introduced in one army, the opposing side is naturally at a great disadvantage in the field.

Shyamala

Originally posted by: Donjas
Thanks for the response. You asked how Prithviraj won against Ghori the first time around? Yes, that battle was discussed too in that program about the decisive battle of Tarain.

Reason is surprise and luck. Ghori never got the chance to properly lay down his strategy. The undisciplined mob of Prithiviraj's army closed the distance on the enemy. Then in a hand to hand battle, Prithviraj's brother hurt Ghori. So the invader Ghori immediately decided to withdraw. There was no question of pursuit to destroy the fleeing enemy because these were elite horse archers, and Prithviraj had almost no cavalry.

Ghori regrouped and came back a year later, with a clearly thought out strategy to deal with the undisciplined and relatively poorly trained army of Prithviraj, which incidentally was atleast 4 or 5 times his force. What happened next you will find more interesting if you watch the lectures. They are informative and not the least dry, instead they are chock full of diagrams and pictures.

It was proven time and time again in antiquity, that you cannot allow Steppe military forces to bring their cavalry into fray, especially 'horse archers'. The Russians have first hand knowledge of it, the Mongols inflicted a similar crushing defeat on Moscow princes in the battle of Kalka river, some 100 years later.

Quote

Donjas

@Donjas

Dazzler

Posted: 9 years ago

#38

There is a lot of folklore associated with the battle. The facts are simple, Ghori was a Steppe warrior with a highly disciplined army of horse archers. But his army was not unique, there were several other Steppe Armies in that area around that time, they put pressure on him so he sought out new lands to conquer and India came into his radar.

As for the battles, the first one was indecisive, Ghori was injured but escaped and he came back with a better plan. Prithviraj made no improvements in his strategy and the result was disaster. As I said, you can't run after a a fleeing army if it is on horse back and you have very few horses of your own. That is why the first battle was a draw not a clear cut victory.

Prithviraj sent a message to Ghori, before the second battle which I consider in high standards and reveal the caliber of the man. Unfortunately his deeds did not match the goodness of character.

Originally posted by: sashashyam
This is very interesting! Thanks for giving me the heads up on the first battle of Tarain. I shall definitely watch this episode in the Decisive Battles series. Did Prithviraj not capture Ghori and then release him unhurt when he begged for it? I always thought that this was very foolish of Prithviraj, otherwise a very brave king, for he opened the way for Ghori's attack the next year, where he lost. Did Jaichand not invite Ghori to come again, as all of us in India believe?

Yes, there seems to have been a quantum shift in battle tactics around this time, with the introduction of mounted archers in the invading army. That is how Genghis Khan conquered such a large swathe of Asia and Europe. His soldiers apparently used to live on horseback! When this kind of upgrading is introduced in one army, the opposing side is naturally at a great disadvantage in the field.

Shyamala

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IshqHaiWoEhsaas

@IshqHaiWoEhsaas

Stunner

+ 3

Posted: 9 years ago

#39

Fantastic post Shyamala Aunty. Nobody can describe human emotions as you do. Enjoyed this one a lot. 😃

And, a very Happy Diwali to you and everyone here, hope you had a wonderful and safe deepavali. 😃

My comments on the episodes, one by one.

Episode 69 :

It was an awesome episode. I loved it. 😃

I didn't like the way Jalal questioned Rahim. He should have known how to converse with a child, especially on such a serious topic, and even after seeing how terrified the child is. Maybe, Jalal had already decided that Rahim is being made to lie, and their is no point being soft to him. Or maybe, he was sooo mad at Jodha, that he cared about nothing else, than to prove her wrong. And when he says, " Pata nahi Jodha Begum Badi Ammi ke peeche kyun padi hain?"...I was thinking that isn't it the opposite here?...It is the whole of Agra which is after Jodha Begum. 😉

I normally don' speak up in the Pratap - Bharmal scenes. I am usually confused about whom to take sides with. Pratap is right in his own place, and Bharmal is right in some places. But, I do think that JA's Pratap is a bit rude. 😕

The AkDha scene...OMG...Sooo awesome it was!..😳...I can't stop myself from drooling over them. The way he stares at her, in disbelief and surprise...Oh My God...That was simply kaatilaana... When she says, " Humara bhi ek parivaar hai "...and goes on telling them how would they feel if anyone bad-mouthed their parivaar...Jalal's change of expression is evident, especially at the mention of Jodha's parivaar...😳

And, not to forget the very, very beautiful BGM. It is just awesome. It just adds another level and beauty to the scene. I absolutely loved the whole scene and the BGM.

BTW, every fakir outside the temple, was wearing the same dress...🤣

And, Jalal noticed Jodha staring at his kada and quickly hid it, though it was too late. But then, when she tells him that she recognized him through the kada, he looks down at the kada, and gives an astonished expression, as though he never knew that she was looking at it, or had recognized him due to it. 😕

Last scene was also good. Atleast Jalal came to know that Jodha was not lying. That is enough to provide me relief. It was sooo irritating to watch him misunderstanding her all the time. 🤢

Episode 70 :

The episode was more about emotions, mainly Jalal's.

Loved your analysis of the Jalal - Rahim relationship and the way he handled him. Agree with you, that it tells us much more about Jalal, than the past many episodes combined together.

Atleast Jalal got to know the truth. Even if it is for a short time only. From tomorrow we'll have the lakhi drama going on. And, he got the truth from Rahim too, realizing that Jodha was right. This is another great relief for me. Otherwise he would have thought her to pressurize a child to lie.

Rahim and Moti's cute banter was pleasant to watch. Such light - hearted scenes are a rarity in this track and are very much appreciated. 😃

Same with the roothna - manaana of Rahim and Jodha. It is always a delight to watch this duo together.😳

Yeah, Jodha could have atleast once thought about what pain Jalal would feel by this revelation. Not saying that she would have sympathised with him, but just a thought to herself would have been enough.

It was heart - wrenching to watch Jalal like this. Rajat was literally bang on. 👏⭐️ The hurt and pain of Jalal is sooo clearly evident. Can't help but feel really bad for Jalal. Feels sooo sad to see how much betrayal he has to face. And that too, by sooo close ones. Applies to both the reel and the real.Though in the reel, this truth will be changed soon. 🤢

Poor Sukanya, she really has to bear too much. Her fate is as good as Jodha. First, she liked Suryabhan, but could never get him. Next, her fiancee is killed. And, she or anyone else may not think so, but both were due to Jodha only, if we see. Though there was no fault of Jodha. But still, Sukanya always said that Jodha has snatched everything from her. And fate, made it true. Though, Jodha has the same fate, not better than Sukanya. ( currently, atleast ) Sukanya wanted her to be taken away by the Mughals, and the same happened. It seems, Saraswati Maa is always there on her tongue.

With such a strict pehra all around, Resham was able to hear the private talks of Atgah Khan and others. Wonder what kind of a pehra it is! Any mere baandi can come and listen the top secret discussions in the palace, and all the soldiers can do, is run about. Seriously foolish! 🤢 And imagine that this news was so secret that Jalal had told SB not to reveal it to anybody, and she had agreed to die, but not speak.

Maham's expressions were quite confusing to me in this scene. I remember, when this episode came the first time around, how many speculations were made as to who was behind the door...and so on...😆

But, I too think that she was Lakhi only. Her facial movements, expressions, body language and tone seemed to say so.

BTW, Adham said that he could have done something if Maham had told him earlier. Isn't that a big joke...🤣...It is Maham who saves him all the time...and he wants to save her this time...Another stupid of Agra...😆

Episode 71 :

The first scene was sooo good. Afterall, it had AkDha in it. The way Jodha turned away as soon as she saw Jalal..awww...😆..Even he turned back immediately...😆...And while Jalal was telling her how ajeeb everything was...I was thinking that when these two are sooo ajeeb...then everything related to them will naturally be ajeeb only naa...😉😆 And wait, Jalal does not want to niharofy Jodha...omg..thats the joke of the century...😆...Whenever she's around...I don't think there is a single moment both of them are not staring at each other...I was like " kitna jhoot bologe Jalal"...😆 Anyway, their meetings are always in strange circumstances only...I would agree with him on that...😉

I think Jalal does not realise the seriousness of the matter he had come to discuss with Jodha. He thought, he was giving her freedom. Ofcourse, according to him, he's only doing good to her. But for her, talaaq is something completely taboo. How complex her state of mind was then, can be clearly seen by her expressions...Laughing and then suddenly crying...For Jodha, as a Rajput, dying is much better than Jalal's second option. An option which Jalal ( being a Mughal ) would consider better. And, Jodha considers this as a game by Jalal. I mean, she thinks that Jalal considers all this as a game. Anyway, not his fault. He just wanted to give her freedom, maybe. Can't help but sympathize with Jodha here. Poor girl! Fate has been a devil in her life...

And BTW, between such a serious talk going on, Jalal suddenly brought that green colour issue. It was hilarious. How, suddenly he diverted from the topic...But then, thats signature Jalal style...😎😆

The point, and to some extent the problem too, is that he is not ready to accept his own feelings. Like the way he said that he does not like looking at her. He neither understands his own feelings right now, nor he understand Jodha's. He thinks that returning to Amer would give her happiness. He is concerned for her happiness right now. And yes, his eyes did look saddened and pained at the thought of losing her.

Yes, that green colour thing, was to show that he still cares for her, wants her to stay with him forever. He wants their nok - jhoks to go on forever. This green dialogue is indicative of that.

I had actually forgotten what happened in the original. And so, I got excited seeing Jalal pushing Maham down...😆...Poor me!...😆 Anyway! How lovely it would have been if all that had been true...I mean Maham had been there instead of her dupe...Anyways...I wanted to see Jalal's reaction if indeed he knew the real truth. Coz here also he said that he never believed it was Maham. " Ye toh tay tha ki badi ammi aisa kuchh nahi kar sakti. " I wonder what punishment he would have given her.

And BTW, He said that his investigation went on for two days. But that DEK was organised the same day, during midnight, right? So, from where did those two days come? 😕 Anyway...no point in asking such questions from our CV's...😆

Episode 72 :

The first scene had some power - packed performances. Rajat was as always good, but Ashwini was exceptional. While Lakhi was speaking, her anger and frustration was so well depicted by her. There might be many who didn't understand what she said. The language was pure Rajasthani. And her accent was brilliant. I would have believed everything, the first time around, maybe. Nothing looked preplanned.

Jalal's apology seemed to me very very formal, and a bit stiff, somehow. His expressions while BD was speaking, were also quite stiff. But anyway, thats more than enough on Jalal's part. And as you said, its more than Jalal had ever done to anyone.

Did he expect Jodha to smile?...I don't think so...Not after what happened last night. I mean, he would have seen her shocked expressions after the illusion of choice he gave her. He won't expect a smile after that, I suppose. Unless he thinks that she somehow liked the offer or has accepted it whole - heartedly. And I don't think he thinks so.

Edited by -AkDha.Lover- - 9 years ago