Take 5: An end of an era; update on Friday's episode on page 15 - Page 12

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Rashmi81 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: WhyWhynot

Hi Shyamala Aunty, just wanted to let you know that I loved your post. It was spot on for me. I keep reading your posts in Dhwani too and love your writing style, the analysis - be it the shreddig or the rejoicing😊. Thanks for entertaining so many of us so many times with your posts. There are quite a few posts that still lingers on in me, one such being your post in Dhwani during the early JA days in the scene where he lands up when Jodha changes and he ends up saying green being his favourtie colour - you had analysed so beautifully the Jalal's unsaid, yet said in its own way. Thanks for such treats time and again. And I have been wanting to clarify something on Jodha with you for sometime, hope you will have time for me😊.
I liked Sandhay's posts as well on today's topic. I always relish her posts.
And I do appreciate Divi's sentiment as well while she made this post.
Regarding the episode, the episode seemed to have only two objectives as I see:
- a tribute to Ashwini
- a tribute to Jodha
and, should I say that rest did not matter! Or should I also include, maybe a changed love-overflowing Jalal who is competing now with Jodha?
While the episode shone in terms of performance (of the two indivdual actors), it lacked subtance. Looks like Ashwini got the better of MA - to me it looks like the confused lot, deeming it a fitting farewell to Ashwini, ended up glorifying MA. I suppose Rajat cried for Ashwini too and not MA!! However, if it was meant to be really the MA-Jalal pathos, then I see the CVs and PH beyond redemption...sorry, if it hurts anyone, this is just my take.
I share Sandhya's problem - looking at the serial logically😕 If you had seen my earlier post in this thread today, I had shared some of these sentiments, where I had also shared that atleast a FB will be shown where MA regrets. But looking at it deeply, maybe they wanted MA to live and die 'as is'. I am reminded of 'Neelambari' character in Padaiyappa - she will die chanting her holy name! Ofcourse, Neelambari is angel compared to MA!
But what beats me is, if they had wanted to leave her character intact, they should have done just that, like in the case of Adham Khan - none of us cried about his redemption. But what has happened here is confusion, to put it midly? Honestly, I could not swallow this glorification when Atgah was not given even half the credit. I am with you in toto.
Maybe they could have dedicated an entire showtime for Ashwini's farewell and we could have cried along to be missing out on such a wonderful actress. I could have borne this special whow at the cost of the prime episode, but not costing the episode as such.
I am not even demanding an apology from MA - my redemption you see :) Let her die in her own supreme state, but let us not celebrate glorying it - this is all my ask.
Akbar's absolution to the mother theory - I agree with you, it was not convincing to me as well. Like jodha mahanta versions, it seemed an Akbar mahanta version to me (friends, no offense meant, just my views - so, please chill)
Akbar, the noble, dutiful, compassionate king, could have come to her death bed in her last moments to grant the wish of a dying one and also in gratitude for whatever good she has done to him (in my view it would be ungrateful to foget the good deeds when bad surfaces - both need to be cognized), but not as the senti over-flowing loving son Jalal. He could have still gone to her as a son, if you would want it that way, but not suddenly forget everything. It was not shown as Jalal forgiving, but coming there forgetting in the name of a son. But where is the question of forgiving when there is not an iota of repentence in the criminal??? The calling for a son also seemed a mockery, when the basic repentence for all the misdeeds done to him is not there.
Or is MA's mind that corrupt that she only thinks that what she has done is all right and that it is unfortunate that she had to loose her son (whom she tried killing though!) who has not understood her noble intentions. Maybe. Then some of the things seem to fall in place, from her end.
But then how are we going to justify her salute to Jodha? If she did not want to carry any debt, she would have stopped with retracting her bad dua and maybe, in the process make Jodha indebted by giving her a divine blessing. But why at all would she salute? Unless she is saluting her ability a.k.a. Rajvanshi ability to live up to any challenge??
And I cannot help wondering how the Hindu bandi survived till date with Jodha raising to power by the day.
The only explanation I have is, Ashwini or MA, whoever be it, make sure you salute Jodha before you go. And she had to do that formality as well hurriedly before her breath stopped. But, I wonder how Adham was not made to do this? Maybe that is why Jalal pushed him down the second time???? Or will Adham be made to appear in Jodha's dream later to state the same??
Whatever be it, my only consolation is that MA did not give a bad dua that she herself would be born as Jalal-Jodha's child and torture them away to her glory. She is merciful indeed!

@ bold
Wow.A very good point.
Edited by Rashmi81 - 11 years ago
divyavm thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
First of all as most of you know ... This take was NOT for Friday's episode at all ... It was a reflection of Maham Anga's journey with Jalal that I had written through the week
- First take: my top 5 moments of Maham Anga-Jalal, where I included then one of Friday as it was momentous for being the last one instead of the way it ended
- And a view on Maham Anga where I clearly state I do not feel she ever truly loved Jalal ... There was a possessive attachment. In the end, when Maham Anga had lost everything, she wanted to leave with the one thing she could possess was Jalal's affections and wanted it before she left. I did not defend Maham Anga once, or else had no intent on doing so.

But in response to all your here posts, here is my take on why Friday's episode and it is NOT a fitting finale at all

And I do not think it is the atrocious acts she has done ... Jalal knows the major crimes she has done against him: The Sujamal fiasco, Chaand Begum kidnapping, and Atifa conspiracy. He has already punished her to jail before Adham Khan's death.

Yet, did anyone criticize Jalal for being a silent support to Maham Anga during Adham Khan's death ... Why did he not leave her to find out herself? Why did he let her meet Adham? He could have held her every sin against her and not let her see her son's body (which is against history anyways) or shown any support. But that is just NOT Jalal, especially the show's Jalal. He will always give ... And so why is it beyond us to believe he will give her peace of mind at her death and call her Badi Ammi?

Because he always had a soft corner for his Badi Ammi ... Even during Adham Khan's detah ... And Shyamala Aunty you noted that he said in his speech to the awaam that "Chaahe hum apni badi ammi se nazar na milaa paaye" ... During Adham Khan's death ... We do not like this ... But this is Jalal ... He was still feeling bad for Maham Anga ... So how can he not feel bad for her when she is dying?

So here were my issues ...

The book ends of this serial were correct ... But the middle went awry.

In the beginning, Jalal loved Maham Anga and completely loved her ... In the end, as per the history books Jalal did grieve for her loss.

So, what went awry in the middle? The NR of Maham Anga went too far and were too vicious with the Atifa track ... But then the Adham Khan death made it seem like justice was done ... she paid the price with what was the most punishing to her than losing what was the most precious to her ...

... But then the Curse changed everything

The curse ruined the complete balance and focus on this show ... As again, Maham Anga attacked on Jalal ... And I don't care whether Jodha-Jalal believed it or not ... But too much face time was given to the curse ...

Including in Jalal's famous takth burning scene where he focuses too much on Maham Anga over Atgah Khan ... His final fear is on Jodha-twins when he says he will leave everything ...

Maham Anga was a huge contributing factor in Jalal literally unravelling ... If CVs, wanted to show Maham Anga and Jalal patch up in the end ... They did not need to show Jalal pushed to the end of the cliff by her actions ...

Because that made the rebound awkward

Because we had to watch a week of Jodha convincing Jalal on how Maham Anga had done more good than bad and he should see her ... He should meet her

The glorification of Maham Anga began ... Which was hard to swallow ...

The final scene of Jalal coming to see Maham Anga ...

He was going for the Badi Ammi he loved ... And he could never let go of that love ... He remembered what his childhood memories more than the atrocious acts he done. I don't agree with it ... But that is what he did. The person who thought of Badi Ammi being hurt at Adham Khan's death would definitely feel bad for Maham Anga's death? What more has he learned on her crimes since Adham Khan's death except the curse? So, why would he not come to give her a final sorrowful farewell?

And the person who dies faces the life after (if you believe in facing God or not it depends what that is), but it is the person who lives behind them that has to face regrets. And if Maham Anga's love was false ... Jalal's love was true.

Jalal's tears

Yes, he cries a lot ... And I personally have no problem with tears as long as it is not self-pity filled and one considers running away which was my issue with the takth burning

My weariness is more ... How many times will Jalal cry for Maham Anga .., how many times this sadness- at the end of the Sujamal fiasco, end of Atifa track, with the curse, and now this..

And in Rajat's acting, I will not comment. For someone who does not know the ABCs of acting, I do not know how to critique sadness at seeing a loved one dying ... And for Jalal, Maham Anga was a loved one, whether we agree whether she should have been or not

However, I do write and understand logic , hence have no qualms criticizing the CVs. It is just the way I am.

Maham Anga's repentance or lack thereof

Why was there an expectation Maham Anga would repent? I was thinking in the Mahabharat Duryodhan, for example, never repented before death.

I think the reason this expectation was formed was ... If Jodha would get acceptance, than there should have been some repentance for Jalal to be symmetrical and balanced.

And if the salaam for Jodha was in return for convincing Jalal, why did Maham Anga not do anything in return for Jalal's "Badi Ammi"?

And this lack of balance, is the fault solely of the CVs.

It was an unfulfilling finale for Maham Anga. The curse still looming makes the bitterness even worse.

A lot of people were shocked why I was so upset the day of the Takth burning ... Because I could see that the day of the curse / takth burning that the CVs had gone into a zone of no return ... They had gone too far to return...

I knew they had gone too far and it would be hard for them to come back to Jalal giving a sorrowful farewell to Maham Anga as Jalal had been too hurt by Maham Anga and Maham Anga had gone too far ... And that is why, I knew with the curse, that the CVs would wrap up Maham Anga in a miserable way and so it is. The bitterness never left since ... And will continue as per Shaguni Bai's words.

But one thing I am glad - that the CVs gave Jalal tears and no dialogues as it leaves it up to the air why he was crying for his Badi Ammi:
- How he wished that she had been the genuine Badi Ammi that he had thought she was
- What a quest for power had reduced her to
- He had forgiven her
- Was going for old times sakes
- Or was Rajat missing Ashwini

And by gosh, he will likely not be redeemed no matter what it is! And Ashwiniji will likely be remembered for this unfitting last scene

Edited by divyavm - 11 years ago
adiana12 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Divs, as I said a couple of comments pehle, Maham was not repenting yet wanted Absolution - sirf aur sirf apna parlok sudharne ke liye - and Jalal gave her that becoz he also knew what she wanted and he knew she was at the end of her journey - but he gave becoz he was the dutiful son - just as he took her out of it all at the end of Atifa track - and he gave for his own self - as u have so very well said - had he not done so he would have lived his life with regrets - long back after the Suja fiasco when Maham was to be punished in the DEK the next day HB said to Jalal that MA's sins were grB but she also had been loyal - this was for that loyalty - they say there are some debts humans can never repay but then there are times when we all get an opportunity to pay such debts - this was that - MA glorification would have happened had she repented - since there was no repentence, no asking for forgiveness it is very clear MA never changed till the end.
WhyWhynot thumbnail
Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: adianasr

Divs, as I said a couple of comments pehle, Maham was not repenting yet wanted Absolution - sirf aur sirf apna parlok sudharne ke liye - and Jalal gave her that becoz he also knew what she wanted and he knew she was at the end of her journey - but he gave becoz he was the dutiful son - just as he took her out of it all at the end of Atifa track - and he gave for his own self - as u have so very well said - had he not done so he would have lived his life with regrets - long back after the Suja fiasco when Maham was to be punished in the DEK the next day HB said to Jalal that MA's sins were grB but she also had been loyal - this was for that loyalty - they say there are some debts humans can never repay but then there are times when we all get an opportunity to pay such debts - this was that - MA glorification would have happened had she repented - since there was no repentence, no asking for forgiveness it is very clear MA never changed till the end.



Adi, what bothers me here is, if MA wanted parlok sudharna, then she admits that she has done evil?? I suppose, the first step to repentance is accepting one's faults. Is there transformation of heart here then?
adiana12 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Parlok wohi sudharna chahta hai jiske andar darr hota hai - and such ppl dont repent - they keep committing the sins but do daan in the name of parlok sudharna - we see this happening all around us everyday - the toughest thing that anyone can ever do is accept he / she is wrong, accept responsibility of one's actions - in such cases the person would not live in guilt or repent but move on becoming a better person and not blame others for what happens to them - the rest live in fear of the consequences of their actions and this fear eats into them and hence they look for that absolution for their parlok sudharna - and this is MA - she has not accepted the responsibilty of her actions hence she wants that forgiveness - but the the game of the Universe is that forgiveness is not for the receiver but for the giver !!!

Originally posted by: WhyWhynot



Adi, what bothers me here is, if MA wanted parlok sudharna, then she admits that she has done evil?? I suppose, the first step to repentance is accepting one's faults. Is there transformation of heart here then?

Edited by adianasr - 11 years ago
WhyWhynot thumbnail
Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: adianasr

Parlok wohi sudharna chahta hai jiske andar darr hota hai - and such ppl dont repent - they keep committing the sins but do daan in the name of parlok sudharna - we see this happening all around us everyday - the toughest thing that anyone can ever do is accept he / she is wrong, accept responsibility of one's actions - in such cases the person would not live in guilt or repent but move on becoming a better person and not blame others for what happens to them - the rest live in fear of the consequences of their actions and this fear eats into them and hence they look for that absolution for their parlok sudharna - and this is MA - she has not accepted the responsibilty of her actions hence she wants that forgiveness - but the the game of the Universe is that forgiveness is not for the receiver but for the giver !!!


Super Adi, thanks for responding.
mishtidoi thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Divi, Jalal punished the vazir-e-aliya of Mughal Sultanate, Maham Anga for treason and also prevented his Badi Ammi from committing more crimes...sadly both the persons are same, just like Shehanshah punished and a son tried to forbid mother's downfall.
In the speech also he was referring to the mother of him and Adham, as well as he was going to give the news to a mother, of son's death...as HB before said, "woh Maa hain Adham ki, haq hai unka yeh janana"

The curse shattered Jalal, the son, it shattered his faith in MA, the mother...still as you and me say, Jalal is a giver...he rose from his self pain, buried his pain deep within him and gave those last moments of MA, a son, which was him and two words which would give her peace.

I agree, curse was and is a point of no return for CVs...an atrocious blunder committed by them, unforgivable and foolish, as history can't be rewritten and they twisted it and are trying to explain and understand in the most insensitive way. All in the name and game of TRPs...they are disrespecting history😡
Edited by mishtidoi - 11 years ago
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
My dear Divya,

Jalal does not know about Mahaam's worst crime, which is none of those you have listed. It was her serial killing of God knows how many of his unborn children thru engineering miscarriages. If he had known that, believe you me, he would not have wept all over her, he would have beheaded her on the spot, even now. He was ready to that in the Lakhi case, before he knew that there was a double,

As for the rest, it was a LOUSY episode. As for blaming the CVs for it, I never do that. As I have told you earlier, there are only 2 ways of episode analysis - the blame the CVs route and the critiquing the characters route. One cannot mix the two. I always take the second route, which is what I have done here. You seem to be four square in the first one, but that automatically rules out any character analysis.

As for Jalal, he not only cries incessantly - which I do not at all like in a supposedly strong man - but now he has also started singing in a horribly tuneless fashion. If he had not stopped so soon I would have run away!😉

And finally, for the umpteenth time, I cannot stand this sentimentalisation over a very wicked, and unrepentantly wicked woman, On Friday, I felt like clouting both Jalal (it was as if Atgah mattered less to him that this woman, for he surely wept more over her than over Atgah) and Jodha, for behaving as if her "acceptance" by this wretch (and she knows, far more than Jalal, exactly what Mahaam is, for Mahaam has always been open with her, even about the Lakhi fraud, which Jodha has now conveniently forgotten about) is some sort of divine blessing.

The pair of them deserve nothing but to be befooled time and again by any cunning crook who comes along, I am absolutely sure the real Jalal and Jodha were nothing like this.

Shyamala Aunty

First of all as most of you know ... This take was NOT for Friday's episode at all ... It was a reflection of Maham Anga's journey with Jalal that I had written through the week
- First take: my top 5 moments of Maham Anga-Jalal, where I included then one of Friday as it was momentous for being the last one instead of the way it ended
- And a view on Maham Anga where I clearly state I do not feel she ever truly loved Jalal ... There was a possessive attachment. In the end, when Maham Anga had lost everything, she wanted to leave with the one thing she could possess was Jalal's affections and wanted it before she left. I did not defend Maham Anga once, or else had no intent on doing so.

But in response to all your here posts, here is my take on why Friday's episode and it is NOT a fitting finale at all

And I do not think it is the atrocious acts she has done ... Jalal knows the major crimes she has done against him: The Sujamal fiasco, Chaand Begum kidnapping, and Atifa conspiracy. He has already punished her to jail before Adham Khan's death.

Yet, did anyone criticize Jalal for being a silent support to Maham Anga during Adham Khan's death ... Why did he not leave her to find out herself? Why did he let her meet Adham? He could have held her every sin against her and not let her see her son's body (which is against history anyways) or shown any support. But that is just NOT Jalal, especially the show's Jalal. He will always give ... And so why is it beyond us to believe he will give her peace of mind at her death and call her Badi Ammi?

Because he always had a soft corner for his Badi Ammi ... Even during Adham Khan's detah ... And Shyamala Aunty you noted that he said in his speech to the awaam that "Chaahe hum apni badi ammi se nazar na milaa paaye" ... During Adham Khan's death ... We do not like this ... But this is Jalal ... He was still feeling bad for Maham Anga ... So how can he not feel bad for her when she is dying?

Edited by sashashyam - 11 years ago
divyavm thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: adianasr

Divs, as I said a couple of comments pehle, Maham was not repenting yet wanted Absolution - sirf aur sirf apna parlok sudharne ke liye - and Jalal gave her that becoz he also knew what she wanted and he knew she was at the end of her journey - but he gave becoz he was the dutiful son - just as he took her out of it all at the end of Atifa track - and he gave for his own self - as u have so very well said - had he not done so he would have lived his life with regrets - long back after the Suja fiasco when Maham was to be punished in the DEK the next day HB said to Jalal that MA's sins were grB but she also had been loyal - this was for that loyalty - they say there are some debts humans can never repay but then there are times when we all get an opportunity to pay such debts - this was that - MA glorification would have happened had she repented - since there was no repentence, no asking for forgiveness it is very clear MA never changed till the end.


Agreed- yes that was Jalal being the son

But I would say the MA glorification was the days up to Friday

Adia, you have the advantage of knowing history ... You know how Jalal would have gotten there anyways ...
divyavm thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: mishtidoi

Divi, Jalal punished the vazir-e-aliya of Mughal Sultanate, Maham Anga for treason and also prevented his Badi Ammi from committing more crimes...sadly both the persons are same, just like Shehanshah punished and a son tried to forbid mother's downfall.

In the speech also he was referring to the mother of him and Adham, as well as he was going to give the news to a mother, of son's death...as HB before said, "woh Maa hain Adham ki, haq hai unka yeh janana"

The curse shattered Jalal, the son, it shattered his faith in MA, the mother...still as you and me say, Jalal is a giver...he rose from his self pain, buried his pain deep within him and gave those last moments of MA, a son, which was him and two words which would give her peace.

I agree, curse was and is a point of no return for CVs...an atrocious blunder committed by them, unforgivable and foolish, as history can't be rewritten and they twisted it and are trying to explain and understand in the most insensitive way. All in the name and game of TRPs...they are disrespecting history😡


Mishti, the son and Shehenshah are the same ... We cannot separate them. His punishment as a Shehenshah should have been harsher had he not been the son.

and the son crushed by the curse was the Shehenshah about to run away

The truth of the matter is the Shehenshah had a soft corner for his Badi Ammi and understandably show and he came to see MA on Friday

You know I disagreed with Jodha's dialogue on separating the son from the Shehenshah because of the question I asked last week and the main driver was my point above

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