Nausena-Pt5-JA not Fiction-AKBAR-a TITLE?.P27+ MAHACHUCHAK BEGUM - P30 - Page 3

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LizBennett thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#21

Originally posted by: Clumsy_Wings

Abhay most of your research has again been confirmed by a famous Mughal Author. Those who read the 20th wife, the reason the author actually made Ruqu as one the central character due to her importance in Nur Jahan's life. She confirmed a lot of Abhay's research. Anyway! keep them coming.. The picture seems great. Will reply in full during weekends.. Thanks for the research again Abhay.


Hey there,
I loved Indu Sundaresan too. Feast of roses and 20th wife are cherished books..glad to know there is a fellow Sundaresan...phile...😊
Cleo12345 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#22
Excellent post.

Short of time. Will post a detailed response later. Regarding the questions
1. Mahamanga held an important post. You have alraedy mentioned MH's sister. Wasn't his mother Mahachuchak begum also a very active participant in Kabul's politics. Queen Elizabeth I was the ruler of England at that time. Akbar maintained a cordial relationship with her. To me this says a lot about the importance of women in Mughal politics during Akbar's time. But of course, it was 16th century...but then, we are in 21st century and USA is still waiting to have a woman president...not that there are no deserving candidates( best if I dont get started on this).
2. It will be unfair to comment on the paintings without seeing the originals. I have had the pleasure of visiting the famous Art Museum in Washington DC. Breathtaking work from the same century..mostly European. Anyone here into impressionist art?
3. Yes please
4. I have read a little bit on this. The Portuguese and Ottomans.Will comment in a later post.

Good work Abhay. Wish I had more time. Hopefully next week. Love your posts!
Thanks!

abhi786 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#23
Abhay wonderful post with interesting facts thanks for sharing 👏
knumnum thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#24

1. Does the presence of ladies in the portraits speaks something of women's position in that era?

Abhay, I do think that ladies played a very important role and i dnt think they dedicated their lives to kitchen politics entirely. In fact, I think Ruks and MUZ were powerful ladies to have got such high honor of issuing farmans and after reading ur thread about MUZ, it turns out to be that she is a fine business lady who controlled everything just sitting right in the palace and as for me, she is the first one in the entire history that I have heard to have earned money by herself.

If the show depicts atleast 25% of what MUZ actually achieved, then I would think they have succeeded in bringing out the truth.


2. Also, about the expertise of the painters of those times, that in an illustration of a size comparable to 20x30 cms, they could display such fine scenes, with delicate details.??..👏

Akbar really gave India such beautiful artistic works, but we are so damn unfortunate that we could not save them. And even more unfortunate thing is that our govt or people are not even making an attempt to bring them back to our country😕.


3. Would also like to hear about the destruction / losses of historical treasures at the hands of various agencies..?.?..

As said above, i get so pissed off thinking about the careless attitude that our govt or ppl have about the historical buildings or stuff.

In Sep, wen I visited Taj Mahal, the sight was so depressing. The maintenance sucks big time. And let me not even mention the things tat the indian visitors did thr. There are scratches all over the place on marble with the names and wat not.

Even now, I feel so upset thinking about it. We do not even respect the heritage we have. Foreigners who were there visiting were so respectful, but we indians do not even have the decency that pictures should not be taken inside the mausoleum (this is jus one eg for such an instance).

4. Also, regarding the fight on boats.?? This was interesting.

Yes, this is exciting stuff. If Akbar had a heir who was atleast half smart and intelligent as himself, then I cant imagine what else we would have got as treasures and innovations. But sadly, none of his heirs and grand sons have got that kind of intelligence to take Mughal era to new heights.


Regards,

Krishi

Muggle_Diaries thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#25
Hi Abhay,
Wonderful! 👏
Great work you are doing by sharing a slice of history with such details.
I need to go through it once more in detail to participate in any discussion. Will try to do it as soon as possible.


Love
Kshithi

Pals2411 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#26

Thanks for sharing such valuable information Abhay. 😛 It is much appreciated. Gives an insight into the world and happenings of those times.

But honestly, I am feeling quite foolish right now when all are talking about the importance of womenfolk and I am not able to locate any woman in the 4 illustrations (except 1 I think in one of the windows😕) Mera eyesight mein problem hai it seems. Would you please point them out Abhay😕😭
Will definitely state my insight into all the 4 questions later.😊
Thanks Abhay and KDR81 for pointing the women at the palace window😉 Now regarding my view on your 4 questions.
Does the presence of ladies in the portraits speaks something of women's position in that era ?
For a start I would say, when I hear the word Mughal and women together, I automatically view covered women and their pardah system. This entire view makes it look that Mughal women were backward, were involved only in their harem activities and not involved in decision making by their men. This is surprisingly so contrary to what your research and also what quite a few people might have read and seen in JA will identify with.
Mughals I feel were definitely more progressive than others when it came to taking political/administrative opinions from their begums and trusted womenfolk. Maham Anga, being a nurse of Jalal is a great example. Her opinions/interference/decisions during Jalal's early political career cannot be overlooked. Similarly, I have read about Salima Sultana too. A well-read women, a poetess and a person who played an important role in mediating between Akbar and Salim is another example of a woman playing critical role in Akbar's time. Read that Gulbadan Begum (the writer of Humayun nama) and Hamida Bano played a vital role as a conciliator when Salim revolted against Akbar. Also read that it was because of Hamida Bano's continuous efforts that there were good relations between Iran and Hindustan. Again read about Hamida Bano that she did several official correspondences for settling matters while also having the right to issue farmans. This only shows their role in administrative/political matters. Your research on MUZ is worth taking note of. Be it harem activities, cavalry, official correspondences or farmans, she is seen and heard everywhere. Mah Chuk Begum (Hakim's mother) is another example of an ambitious lady who was involved politically. Who can forget Nurjahan, another very smart, cunning, beautiful, ambitious and politically involved lady. I also read about Jahan Ara Begum (daughter of Shahajahan) and how she was involved in political matters while also influencing Aurangzeb when he was making some unwise decisions due to his foolish advisors. This is just a gist of what I read. I am very sure you have a lot more to contribute. Only says about the role of Mughal women in that era.
I am strictly speaking about portrait 3. 😕It is clear that two women are peeping from the palace window seeing the goings on😊 Don't throw tomatoes please, but I felt that even I would be doing the same if someone was caught outside or jewellery was being brought to the palace😕 Couldn't deduce much other than that they were seeing the goings on.😭 Please no egg throwing, it stinks. Tomatoes chalega😛
*****************************************************************************************************
2. Also, about the expertise of the painters of those times, that in an illustration of a size comparable to 20x30 cms, they could display such fine scenes, with delicate details.??..👏
Spot on. Couldn't agree much. Such detailed paintings and that too in 20x30 cms size, which are still visible and can be understood/interpreted by us is definitely applaud worthy.


3. Would also like to hear about the destruction / losses of historical treasures at the hands of various agencies..?.?..

I have only one word and that is pathetic. Its like the Kohinoor. Hamara hai, but ab hamare paas nahi. Such valuable information destroyed, lost, missing and/or sold to foreign agencies only says a lot about us and not about them. Even they value our history more than us. Don't know what more to say.

4. Also, regarding the fight on boats.?? This was interesting.

Yes it is interesting, considering they were quite fewer than the fiercely fought land battles. The reason for this can be because Akbar and other successors too were far more involved in capturing and ruling neighbouring states. Hindustan was so big then and Akbar wanted to rule it. Attacking every princely state and to rule over them was quite a task. So they had to make do with small-time boat fights I think😆
Edited by Pals2411 - 11 years ago
MaddyO thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#27
Abhay another fabulous post from you, and on a subject we had not even connected yet with Akbar - Navy!

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

1. Does the prIesence of ladies in the portraits speaks something of women's position in that era?

I do think atleast in Akbar's era women had great influence and power in politics. Whether they actually held positions? You yourself have written that MUZ and Rukayya did, also MH's mother, MA too!

I read one comment about whether the women depicted in the paintings could be eunuchs? I doubt that only because they were very lower ranked in society and would not be depicted in such paintings.

I am coming to realise from your posts that Akbar was liberal not just in his religious views but in other matters too. Did MUZ influence his thinking to such an extent?!


One of the facts is that queens also got spoils of war. And, "Nazraanas"😉, after the conclusion of a battle. BTW, there is also an interesting anecdote that, Man Singh, after winning a battle in Kabul / Lahore(can't recollect exactly the war), expressed desire to first dedicate the spoils of war to his aunt, MUZ.😉 Also, she used to receive a jewel from each nobleman, on the New Year Festival.

This is such an interesting point, that MUZ had an independant source of income! Not just talking about from Man Singh but other sources and also her ship Rahimi. Did Akbar let only her have financial independance? What about Rukayya & SB?!


2. Also, about the expertise of the painters of those times, that in an illustration of a size comparable to 20x30 cms, they could display such fine scenes, with delicate details.??..👏

These paintings are magnificent, color vibrancy and attnetion to detail. Are these miniatures similar to the ICONs famous from Russian and European cultures?

BTW I had read somewhere that Muslims were not permitted to paint animals and human figures so they used to depict flowers and trees and such symbols? Did this not apply to the painters? Or was this only applicable to Masjids and not everyday life?

If these water colors? Did they use water colors only and not Oil paintings?


3. Would also like to hear about the destruction / losses of historical treasures at the hands of various agencies..?.?..


I regret we have lost so much treasure in hands of British and surely in the hands of those who found MUZ ancestry a thing to be hidden and distorted😡

One of my favorite writers Meena Prabhu has written many travelogues and she has lamented that our practice of cremation is to be regretted only for this. That some of the great art, paintings, gold jewelry, artefacts even wooden work that was discovered centuries later from the tombs. Egyptians have discovered a treasure trove of information from such sources.

Have you come across any information if such stuff was kept in the tombs of rulers of Mugal era?

4. Also, regarding the fight on boats.?? This was interesting.

They all seemed to have guns or "narnaals" with them! I thnk Mugals came only via land route and did not have much warfare experience or faced such assults by sea.

Man Singh wanted to build a navy and had designs on Sri Lanka?!!! This is very interesting information and speaks volumes about him.

divyavm thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#28
Hi Abhay,

Thanks as always for your interesting and intriguing posts. Typing from my phone as I couldn't wait- so no emoticons.

Here are some general observations of what I found interesting and relevant to the show:

- Akbar's tradition of forgiving: there seems to be a lot of examples of Akbar forgiving folks who have been faithful in the past- this Asaf Khan being one of them. Any thoughts on this?
- We see where Akbar's liking for boat rides come from as you mention.
- Also, like the note on Maan Singh dedicating the spoils to his Aunt / MUZ. As his power in the sultanate rises, I look forward to how the show shapes his character as a support to his aunt.

Now, coming to your 4 questions:

1. Absolutely you see the role of women in the paintings and I think to a large extent in the show as well. However, in real life, he likely balanced the influence of the navaratnas with his wifes. I would like to believe the influence of women was why he was more socially progressive- though not how they showed it in the Tasleem track!

2. The paintings are beautiful- and you do a great job of dissecting them. I am glad they left all the detail for you!

3. I am always surprised how there is limited documentation on Akbar's Hindu queen while more so on MUZ. I strongly feel Aurangzeb wanted to erase the references.

I also feel that a lot of historical treasures were lost in the British reign. I have read India was ready to go through a Golden period if it were not Britishers reign and we also lost 80% of India's wealth.

4. I am not familiar with this- but I am surprised they did not develop the navy more. But, I like how Akbar likes boats.

Thanks again for your historical posts. They are brilliant.

Divya
KDR81 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#29
...

Originally posted by: Pals2411

Thanks for sharing such valuable information Abhay. 😛 It is much appreciated. Gives an insight into the world and happenings of those times.

But honestly, I am feeling quite foolish right now when all are talking about the importance of womenfolk and I am not able to locate any woman in the 4 illustrations (except 1 I think in one of the windows😕) Mera eyesight mein problem hai it seems. Would you please point them out Abhay😕😭
Will definitely state my insight into all the 4 questions later.😊



Hi Pals ,
Abhay is in time crunch so have to chip in.😊
Ist of all, Good news , Nothing wrong with ur eye-sight Dear...😆 So pls cheer up...😃
But may use some brush-up with remembrance😉...(Try to recollect the earlier pictures posted and take them into account)

The reason u don't see women except one is that, the others are depiction of War and the submission after war...and that too involving mostly Akbar's Generals ...😃 Royal Women did not go to wars with generals ...!!
But yes, they surely participated in the Victory celebration after the return and had their share of the Nazranas.😃(As u see in the picture...And No, these are NOT eunuchs as thought by some members.)

About remembrance, I say this because, there were other pictures posted here as well and if u see them again, almost all of them depicted women and that too very vividly, including some DEK scenes...😳

So,I hope the deduction about involvement of women is clearer now ...😊

Regards,
Kamal
Edited by KDR81 - 11 years ago
ngayou thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#30
@Abhay, really loved seeing the paintings & reading your comments on their intricate details. An eyeopener for a person like me, who wasn't a very good student of history at school nor showed major interest in it. In fact, watching JA only has made me get interested in its history & thankfully, due to posts from your & some of the researchers in this forum, I ve been able to imbibe some really valuable information. Kudos to u all 👏 . Regarding your 4 questions, I cant presume to answer on them as am no expert, but am surely enjoying reading others ' insights. Once again, thanks 😳 .

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