Nausena-Pt5-JA not Fiction-AKBAR-a TITLE?.P27+ MAHACHUCHAK BEGUM - P30 - Page 16

Originally posted by: knumnum

Hai na Sam?? looks very similar😆 yeah Atgah wud be dead by the time Jalal and Adham face off happens. Wat abhay said how Adham ll dies is a bit gruesome. So I want to see how CVs would show this in the serial😃

I ll be so very sad to see Atgah die in the show😕 He s the only till now who is been so gud to Jalal without any reservations/conditions

Originally posted by: knumnum

Wow! I mean Wow about the information (not abt death). Thanks so much Abhay!

yeah so MA will die in 40 days from AK's death. But wen ll AK die?😆 Do u see his end near in serial? Cos I am very much excited abt this face off between Adham and Atgah and Jalal. So the impatience 😆

If u closely look at the Abul mali pic above, his hair is almost similar to how it is shown in the serial. Even to the extent of color😆 Serial mein thoda zyaada face ke upar aati hai but this looks really similar. This guy has looong and uneven hair in reality too😃

Marriage of Adham Khan

Akbar orders punishment of Adham Khan. A series of images within a single painting shown, Akbar first emerging from his private quarters with a sword in his hand, Adham Khan being thrown down at two different places from the walls of Akbar's palace within Agra Fort.
People shown below, who seem like his followers running away scared. Previously Adham Khan had forced his entry into the private quarters of Akbar, and killed his favourite general Atga Khan, enraging Akbar.

Originally posted by: Pals2411

Thanks for sharing such valuable information Abhay. 😛 It is much appreciated. Gives an insight into the world and happenings of those times.

But honestly, I am feeling quite foolish right now when all are talking about the importance of womenfolk and I am not able to locate any woman in the 4 illustrations (except 1 I think in one of the windows😕) Mera eyesight mein problem hai it seems. Would you please point them out Abhay😕😭
Refer this comment. Nothing wrong in your eyesight.😃:
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/101837565

Will definitely state my insight into all the 4 questions later.😊

Thanks Abhay and KDR81 for pointing the women at the palace window😉 Now regarding my view on your 4 questions.

Does the presence of ladies in the portraits speaks something of women's position in that era ?

For a start I would say, when I hear the word Mughal and women together, I automatically view covered women and their pardah system. This entire view makes it look that Mughal women were backward, were involved only in their harem activities and not involved in decision making by their men. This is surprisingly so contrary to what your research and also what quite a few people might have read and seen in JA will identify with.

Mughals I feel were definitely more progressive than others when it came to taking political/administrative opinions from their begums and trusted womenfolk. Maham Anga, being a nurse of Jalal is a great example. Her opinions/interference/decisions during Jalal's early political career cannot be overlooked. Similarly, I have read about Salima Sultana too. A well-read women, a poetess and a person who played an important role in mediating between Akbar and Salim is another example of a woman playing critical role in Akbar's time. Read that Gulbadan Begum (the writer of Humayun nama) and Hamida Bano played a vital role as a conciliator when Salim revolted against Akbar. Also read that it was because of Hamida Bano's continuous efforts that there were good relations between Iran and Hindustan. Again read about Hamida Bano that she did several official correspondences for settling matters while also having the right to issue farmans. This only shows their role in administrative/political matters. Your research on MUZ is worth taking note of. Be it harem activities, cavalry, official correspondences or farmans, she is seen and heard everywhere. Mah Chuk Begum (Hakim's mother) is another example of an ambitious lady who was involved politically. Who can forget Nurjahan, another very smart, cunning, beautiful, ambitious and politically involved lady. I also read about Jahan Ara Begum (daughter of Shahajahan) and how she was involved in political matters while also influencing Aurangzeb when he was making some unwise decisions due to his foolish advisors. This is just a gist of what I read. I am very sure you have a lot more to contribute. Only says about the role of Mughal women in that era.

Let me add one more name. The wife of Mirza Suleiman was also quite 'influencial' (read : clever ). She will come in picture later. Wait for her. 😉

I am strictly speaking about portrait 3. 😕It is clear that two women are peeping from the palace window seeing the goings on😊 Don't throw tomatoes please, but I felt that even I would be doing the same if someone was caught outside or jewellery was being brought to the palace😕 Couldn't deduce much other than that they were seeing the goings on.😭 Please no egg throwing, it stinks. Tomatoes chalega😛

Hope this doubt got cleared by comment of KDR81. No tomatoes.😃
See this:
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/102412601

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2. Also, about the expertise of the painters of those times, that in an illustration of a size comparable to 20x30 cms, they could display such fine scenes, with delicate details.??..👏

Spot on. Couldn't agree much. Such detailed paintings and that too in 20x30 cms size, which are still visible and can be understood/interpreted by us is definitely applaud worthy.

Their skill is praiseworthy. Let me add one more picture. This picture shows, painters Daulat (left) and and 'Abd al-Rahim, a scribe,(not that Rahim who is son of Bairam Khan) working on the book. Here they are preparing, a book called Khamsa, i.e., collection of 5 poems, for Akbar.

3. Would also like to hear about the destruction / losses of historical treasures at the hands of various agencies..?.?..

I have only one word and that is pathetic. Its like the Kohinoor. Hamara hai, but ab hamare paas nahi. Such valuable information destroyed, lost, missing and/or sold to foreign agencies only says a lot about us and not about them. Even they value our history more than us. Don't know what more to say.
True.

4. Also, regarding the fight on boats.?? This was interesting.

Yes it is interesting, considering they were quite fewer than the fiercely fought land battles. The reason for this can be because Akbar and other successors too were far more involved in capturing and ruling neighbouring states. Hindustan was so big then and Akbar wanted to rule it. Attacking every princely state and to rule over them was quite a task. So they had to make do with small-time boat fights I think😆
This one appears funny,😉 the reason most prominently given is that, Mughals had a mighty army till almost the end of Aurangzeb's reign and hence they almost compensated their lack on sea-front due to this. They had BIG ships but used for pilgrimage and trade purposes. War-Ships in particular was lacking. Shah Jahan, in 1651, initiated construction of 4 to 6 BIG ships, but for voyages to West Asia. In following year, 6 ships were put into commission. Soon, Indian shipyards were in a position to produce ships based on European models.

Originally posted by: history_geek

Forgot to ask ------ Who is Mirza Suleiman...Am I missing someone😕

Nice comments Pallavi, esp. the ones in red and blue.
I have added few lines in between in brown. Also added one picture in the comment above.

Thank you for the comments/new picture Abhay😃 (PS: Mera number 2.5 months baad aaya)...

Originally posted by: history_geek

Nice comments Pallavi, esp. the ones in red and blue.
I have added few lin

es in between in brown. Also added one picture in the comment above.

Originally posted by: Pals2411

Originally posted by: MaddyO

Abhay another fabulous post from you, and on a subject we had not even connected yet with Akbar - Navy!

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

1. Does the prIesence of ladies in the portraits speaks something of women's position in that era?

I do think atleast in Akbar's era women had great influence and power in politics. Whether they actually held positions? You yourself have written that MUZ and Rukayya did, also MH's mother, MA too!

I read one comment about whether the women depicted in the paintings could be eunuchs? I doubt that only because they were very lower ranked in society and would not be depicted in such paintings.

I am coming to realise from your posts that Akbar was liberal not just in his religious views but in other matters too. Did MUZ influence his thinking to such an extent?!

One of the facts is that queens also got spoils of war. And, "Nazraanas"😉, after the conclusion of a battle. BTW, there is also an interesting anecdote that, Man Singh, after winning a battle in Kabul / Lahore(can't recollect exactly the war), expressed desire to first dedicate the spoils of war to his aunt, MUZ.😉 Also, she used to receive a jewel from each nobleman, on the New Year Festival.

This is such an interesting point, that MUZ had an independant source of income! Not just talking about from Man Singh but other sources and also her ship Rahimi. Did Akbar let only her have financial independance? What about Rukayya & SB?!

Yes, Maddy, these royal ladies had their OWN sources of income. MUZ had the jaagir of Bayana near Agra. Salima and Ruqayya Begum also had Jaagirs. But, Dirk Collier in his book records that Akbar used to have LONG talks with MUZ on her trade related matters.😉

2. Also, about the expertise of the painters of those times, that in an illustration of a size comparable to 20x30 cms, they could display such fine scenes, with delicate details.??..👏

These paintings are magnificent, color vibrancy and attnetion to detail. Are these miniatures similar to the ICONs famous from Russian and European cultures?

BTW I had read somewhere that Muslims were not permitted to paint animals and human figures so they used to depict flowers and trees and such symbols? Did this not apply to the painters? Or was this only applicable to Masjids and not everyday life?

If these water colors? Did they use water colors only and not Oil paintings?

If paintings are considered then all the above things you mentioned are present in Mughal miniatures. I do NOT feel painters had any such restriction. See some paintings below depicting animals, birds, flowers, etc.😊

Flowers - Tulip by Mansur, a painter in Jahangir's reign.

Regarding animals, we can see many miniature paintings of Jahangir with animals, birds. Here is one such painting.

3. Would also like to hear about the destruction / losses of historical treasures at the hands of various agencies..?.?..

I regret we have lost so much treasure in hands of British and surely in the hands of those who found MUZ ancestry a thing to be hidden and distorted😡

One of my favorite writers Meena Prabhu has written many travelogues and she has lamented that our practice of cremation is to be regretted only for this. That some of the great art, paintings, gold jewelry, artefacts even wooden work that was discovered centuries later from the tombs. Egyptians have discovered a treasure trove of information from such sources.

Have you come across any information if such stuff was kept in the tombs of rulers of Mugal era?

Yes, Akbar's tomb had his armour, clothes, book, etc. , placed near him. But, these were later plundered.

4. Also, regarding the fight on boats.?? This was interesting.

They all seemed to have guns or "narnaals" with them! I thnk Mugals came only via land route and did not have much warfare experience or faced such assults by sea.

Man Singh wanted to build a navy and had designs on Sri Lanka?!!! This is very interesting information and speaks volumes about him.


They had narnaals, and also canons developed. For this i can give you 2-3 pictures.😃

1. Mughal Swivel Guns



2. This is from Akbarnama, when Akbar attacked Ranthambore, bullocks were used to transport these big siege guns in the hills.