..::Doubts & Discussions about Historical facts::.. - Page 40

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ann2012 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
I missed this intriguing thread and am only reading it now. And let me tell you, it is one big mess. I don't know how people are interacting here but hats off to you.


Even i miss Abhay's and Kamal's posts so much. It was one of the main reasons i came to this forum and stayed.


I am nowhere near to Abhay and Kamal on historical knowledge and probably haven't even put in 1% of the hard work on gathering information but i do know some stuff.


Mariam-uz-Zamani was Akbar's favorite and one of the most powerful women in Mughal empire at par with Nur Jahan. Infact in Jahangir's time Nur Jahan was the power BEHIND the throne.


MUZ was revered and famously called the Queen Mother of Hindustan. Despite the poor source Jahangirnamas prove to be, they are consistent in one thing: Jahangir refers to his mother as Her Majesty. Doesn't this one epithet of respect make MUZ at par with the King himself officially? Isn't it enough to prove the kind of power she commanded?


Somebody who reads even a little about Mughal history, would come across the injustice served to MUZ. Her name and power has been obliterated from Mughal records because of petty prejudice. Findly takes a note of it. And it seems like even now she is prejudiced against.


But no one is interested in solving this mystery. People just quote and re-quote whatever is written by the predecessors and publish the books. No one wants to even verify what the others have written. The better books whose authors have taken the pains to verify information and scoop out new facts, get lost in obscurity. Why you ask? Because these authors realize that what their contemporaries have relied on is just centuries old gossip, didn't even care to verify to it and write their own versions (or FFs). But this is what people like to read and their books sell like hot cakes.


The same is happening in this forum. Unverified stories, malicious gossip from 16-17th century is being presented as real history and members are lapping it up. And point fingers at the people (Abhay and Kamal) who have actually worked very hard to unearth information and go beyond the usual sources. What is even more surprising is the attitude of the forum MODs.


The quality of work presented by Kamal, Abhay and Lizzy is phenomenal. But sadly this forum doesn't appreciate it. That is why their threads have been closed down.


One only realizes the worth of something when they have lost it. Looks like only when Abhay leaves then people might realize the err they have done just to prove facts and their version of history is right, when is reality it doesn't even exist.

aanchal_c thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
i can't even say how much i dispose these new set of rules...well if some ppl in this forum can't appreciate that abhay and the rest have taken so much pain to dig and take out all FACTS abt jodha-akbar story then its not just inappropriate but plainly sad and something needs to be done about this...
preetgurti thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
Did harem ladies actually ever fought and I sply jodha I heard under her 12000 soldiers ka army was
but I don't know exactly always wanted to ask
ABHAY pls share this info na his history thread was the jewel of forum
srsly missing it badly
RadhikaS0 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: ann2012

I missed this intriguing thread and am only reading it now. And let me tell you, it is one big mess. I don't know how people are interacting here but hats off to you.



Even i miss Abhay's and Kamal's posts so much. It was one of the main reasons i came to this forum and stayed.


I am nowhere near to Abhay and Kamal on historical knowledge and probably haven't even put in 1% of the hard work on gathering information but i do know some stuff.


Mariam-uz-Zamani was Akbar's favorite and one of the most powerful women in Mughal empire at par with Nur Jahan. Infact in Jahangir's time Nur Jahan was the power BEHIND the throne.


MUZ was revered and famously called the Queen Mother of Hindustan. Despite the poor source Jahangirnamas prove to be, they are consistent in one thing: Jahangir refers to his mother as Her Majesty. Doesn't this one epithet of respect make MUZ at par with the King himself officially? Isn't it enough to prove the kind of power she commanded?


Somebody who reads even a little about Mughal history, would come across the injustice served to MUZ. Her name and power has been obliterated from Mughal records because of petty prejudice. Findly takes a note of it. And it seems like even now she is prejudiced against.


But no one is interested in solving this mystery. People just quote and re-quote whatever is written by the predecessors and publish the books. No one wants to even verify what the others have written. The better books whose authors have taken the pains to verify information and scoop out new facts, get lost in obscurity. Why you ask? Because these authors realize that what their contemporaries have relied on is just centuries old gossip, didn't even care to verify to it and write their own versions (or FFs). But this is what people like to read and their books sell like hot cakes.


The same is happening in this forum. Unverified stories, malicious gossip from 16-17th century is being presented as real history and members are lapping it up. And point fingers at the people (Abhay and Kamal) who have actually worked very hard to unearth information and go beyond the usual sources. What is even more surprising is the attitude of the forum MODs.


The quality of work presented by Kamal, Abhay and Lizzy is phenomenal. But sadly this forum doesn't appreciate it. That is why their threads have been closed down.


One only realizes the worth of something when they have lost it. Looks like only when Abhay leaves then people might realize the err they have done just to prove facts and their version of history is right, when is reality it doesn't even exist.


Ann,

When one statement is repeated often enough, it seeps into our collective conscience as the gospel truth. Just as the fact that in the Dark Ages, people thought the sun revolved around the earth.

In such a scenario, when some truth seeker comes and reveals the truth, he is branded a heretic. Like Galileo was branded a heretic for showing the earth revolved around the sun and not the other way round.

This is what is happening here too, on our forum. People have been reading distorted and Wikipediased versions of history for so long that they have full faith in it. When someone points out this is not the real history, he is hounded for daring to question age-old beliefs.

Just because some bigots tried to obliterate the existence of the MUZ and paint it over with exaggerated accounts of the might of other empresses, there is no need for us to go on believing this. I am really thankful to Abhay /Kamal for doing such painstaking research and showing us the real facts.

If it hadn't been for their posts, I wouldn't have known the stunning history of HK and her role in shaping the destiny of the Mughal empire along with Akbar (who is credited with consolidating and expanding the empire in India).
roshanehkhan thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: hely

daulat shad was akbar's wife...?? she had 2 daughters from akbar...cn u tell me their name...
akbar fall for daulat shad means he loved her ryt...?




Abul Wasi(a Delhi noble) supported Sharifuddin in his revolt against Akbar .Daulat Shad was Abul wasi wife & some says she was Sharifudin cousin too so Daulat Shad was taken to Akbar's Harem for diplomatical reasons as a warning to Abul Wasi.
it is said when Akbar went to delhi & saw her he madly fell in love with her & forced her husband Abul Wasi to divorce her.
Before 21st August 1563 in Delhi 1562 Akbar married the former wife of Abdul-Wasi
Begum Daulat Shad.she was the 7th wife of Akbar mentioned in records of Akbar wives.
Daulta Sahd was very beautiful and a teenager when Akbar married her.
Jahangir mentioned her name & her daughters name in his autobiography.

Shakaru-n-nisa by Begam Bibi Daulat-Shad

Aram Banu Begam by Begam Bibi Daulat-Shad

following is the text from Jahangirnama as per Jahangir

After the birth of Daniyal a daughter was born to Bibi
Daulat-Shad whom they named Shakaru-n-nisa Begam.


As she was brought up in the skirt of my revered father's
care, she turned out very well. She is of good disposition
and naturally compassionate towards all people. From
infancy and childhood she has been extremely fond of me,
and there can be few such relationships between brother
and sister. The first time when, according to the custom of
pressing the breast of a child and a drop of milk is
perceptible, they pressed my sister's breast and milk
appeared, my revered father said to me : " Baba ! drink
this milk, that in truth this sister may be to thee as a
mother." God, the knower of secrets, knows that from
that day forward, after I drank that drop of milk, I have
felt love for my sister such as children have for their
mothers.

After some time another girl was born to this same
Daulat-Shad, and he (Akbar) called her Aram Banu
Begam.
2 Her disposition was on the whole inclined to
excitement and heat. My father was very fond of her, so
much so that he described her impolitenesses as politenesses,
and in his august sight they, from his great love, did not
appear bad. Repeatedly he honoured me by addressing
me, and said : " Baba ! for my sake be as kind as I am,
after me, to this sister, who in Hindi phrase is my darling

1 The MSS. have Shakar-nisar, 'sugar-sprinkling.' She lived into
Shah-Jahan's reign.

2 She died unmarried in Jahangir's reign.

from Tuzuk-e-Jahangiri or Jahangirnama is the autobiography of Mughal Emperor Nur-ud-din Muhammad Jahangir.

https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/jodha-akbar/4018963/akbar-childrens-info-from-jahangirnama

in 1564 Akbar was attacked & stucked by arrow in Delhi market but Akbar refused any enquiry.
It is said the attack was made by Daulat Shad ex husband Abul Wasi's relatives.
Edited by roshanehkhan - 11 years ago
ann2012 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: preetgurti

Did harem ladies actually ever fought and I sply jodha I heard under her 12000 soldiers ka army was
but I don't know exactly always wanted to ask
ABHAY pls share this info na his history thread was the jewel of forum
srsly missing it badly



Hi Preeti
Since Abhay has still not replied to you, i hope to solve your problem. He is pretty much absent from forum these days and i don't blame him.

Mughal women had a lot of freedom and participation in public life. They played huge roles in governing of empire and were one of the chief advisors to the emperors. Please never confuse them with Arabs. People very commonly do that. They generalize Muslim women and think all of them led a restricted life like their Arab counterparts.

Timurid/Mughal managed all social and financial decision-making in the absence of the male figures who were engaged in hunting or military campaigns.

Womens participation extended to even fighting in Timurs army.Many daring Timurid women warriors skilled in using bows, spears and swords were enlisted in Timurs army and risked limb and life. Pre-dating Timurid womens military involvement are the women who enlisted in Chengiz Khans army.Womens involvement and visibility on the battlefield encouraged elite women to accompany their husbands to war. Reference:Tamerlane, or Timur, the Great Amir,byAhmadibn Muhammad, called Ibn Arabshah [1389-1450]<font color="#ff0000">p. 324 (courtsey Abhay's threads) </font>

Jodha/MUZ did hold the position of 12,000 cavalry. And was one of the only 4 people in imperial court (one was the king) to do so and the only woman. You can read more about MUZ here:

Edited by ann2012 - 11 years ago
NutellaWaffle thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: RadhikaS0

Hi,

@Geeta: Cheer up!😊

@All interested members: Instead of just missing Abhay's threads, let's think what we can do to get back our history threads the way they were - concise, precise, accurate, well-referenced, and most importantly, with no chat sessions in between, just pure historical discussions. Surely, when all of us, who want these threads re-opened, put our heads together, we can come up with some great ideas.😊






Abhay thread got closed dnt know wat rules r these 😔 it takes so much pain n time to collect info abt all historical data n present... After all these hardwork in collecting info ,,finally got is closing the thread which consists of valuable historical info 👎🏼 Abhay wud hv given more info abt present war which is gng on... Want thread to b reopened ...
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: Akdhaparijatluv



Abhay thread got closed dnt know wat rules r these 😔 it takes so much pain n time to collect info abt all historical data n present... After all these hardwork in collecting info ,,finally got is closing the thread which consists of valuable historical info 👎🏼 Abhay wud hv given more info abt present war which is gng on... Want thread to b reopened ...

Even I had a lot of queries regarding the current track Bhavana...Wanted to know if Akbar was ever captured in history (any event that has been recorded), did harem EVER participate in a fight, did MUZ who headed a cavalry - EVER took the sword in a jung for attacking/defence purpose from Mughal's side...But where to ask😕...I wanted an exclusive thread by Abhay, so that we can all discuss about this topic only...With interested members also querying on this track and Abhay replying we would have got one very interesting topic on hand plus we could have related to the track more then...But now I don't know where to go for the right answers (not wiki wale answers🥱)...I cant play PM-PM game with Abhay for that.😔...Please help
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: roshanehkhan



Real Akbar was not a lover boy or one men women as they are showing in the serial jodha akbar
abul fazl akbar court historian said akbar was kind with his harem.shensha akbar have 300 wives including 35 of them are officialy recorded but he has 3 cheif wives only they were
rukkaiya sultan,saleema sultan,harkabai. i read shensha akbar bought many jagirs for
rukkaiya sultan,sends gifts to jodha when she given birth to saleem,arranged the journey when saleema sultan decided to go for Haj. shensha akbar taken one of his court noble Abul Wasi wife Daulat shad begum into his harem for diplomatical reasons, later fallen for her beauty & forced his husband to divorce his wife.shensha akbar married daulat shad begum she bore two daughters to akbar.

in mughal history so far i read there are only two emperors who were head over heels fallen for only one particular wife & bestowed there love & authorities to them

emperor shahjahan & mumtaz mahal he was truly deeply in love with his 3rd wife mumtaz.shahjahan court historian said after marrying mumtaz mahal the emperor forgot his previous two wives they were wives only for name shahjahan love & care was totaly devoted to mumtaz mahal.
mumtaz mahal bore 14 childrens to shahjahan only five childrens survived.in court prossedings mumtaz mahal sit behind her husband shahjahan when he passed judgements and if she disagreed she would hold his shoulder in her hand and whisper her opinion. on the death of mumtaz mahal shahjahan was paralysed by grief & weeping fits.Shah Jahan went into secluded mourning for a year. When he appeared again, his hair had turned white, his back was bent, and his face worn. shahjahan built tajmahal in the memory of his beloved wife mumtaz mahal.in the last painful years of shahjahan exile he use to sit in window & watch tajmahal for many hours.he visited her beloved wife grave every month on boat.shahjahan never married any other women when mumtaz mahal was alive.the court historians of shahjahan foundy speak about mumtaz & shahjahan lovestory.

emperor jahangir & nurjahan some of the historian claim they were in love from there teenage but akbar forced nurjahan father to married her with another men name sher afghan.
after the death of sherafghan nurjahan was bought to agra. nurjahan had a daughter named laadli begum.in noroz festival emperor jahangir saw her & with in two months both married. emperor jahangir was 42yrs & nurjahan was 34yrs when they got married.nurjahan was the last wife of jahangir he never married after nurjahan.later emperor jahangir bestowed his whole empire to nurjahan.
nurjahan was the real power behind jahangir throne.the court poets & historians of jahangir era foundly speak about jahangir & nurjahan lovestory.european historian said both jahangir nurjahan shared a very intimate relationship & were good companions.
sir thomas roe a english historian said once he was waiting for the king jahangir a news came turn on the lights the emperor is coming & the historian said he saw Jahangir and Nur Jahan returning to the camp one night from a romantic bullock-cart ride all by themselves ...
jahangir himself in his memories praised nurjahan & said '' no one is more founder of him then nurjahan'' jahangir also said he not shared his secrets with anyone but only nurjahan.
nurjahan made a perfume for his husband named the oil itr-i-Jahangiri.
nurjahan use to sit with her husband or in jaroka during court proceedings.
nurjahan once commanded a army & rescued her husband jahangir from mahabat khan.
nurjahan was the first & only mughal queen her name is written on the mughal coins along with her husband name.actually her real name was mehrun nisa & nurjahan is title given by emperor jahangir.
nurjahan title is derived from emperor jahangir own name.
full name is Nur-uddin Muhammdad Jahangir ... Nur from Nur-uddin & Jahan from Jahangir
here is a image of Nurjahan & Jahangir 1615.
it shows there love & closeness.




Akbar was not a lover boy like jehangir or shahjahan nor he is under the influence of any of his wife akbar loved his kingdom the most. Even his marriages with the Hindu Ladies was a part of his conciliation and consolidation policy thats why Akbar is considered as the great Mughal Emperor.






akbar forced abul wasi for divorce his wife daulat shad😳n as u said akbar fall for daulat shad's beauty...n she had two daughters from akbar..wtz their name...??it means akbar loved daulat shad
.GreekPrincess. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: RadhikaS0

Hi Palak,

Long time, missed you 🤗

What a thread you have started and see what an interesting turn it has taken 👏


hey di
missed you too🤗
where were you...??
i have doubts dts y i made thread...
thanks di😳

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