17th Jan - JA-JO 'Shehenshah, your silence torments me' - Page 5

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Dear Bobby (and Lashy)

Apropos Mirza being seen as too good to be true, I had written as soon as he appeared that he had been, historically, a thorn in Akbar's side till he died at 32. I also remembered Jalal mentioning to Atgah Khan in an early episode that Mirza Hakim in Kabul was getting too big for his boots. But when some young friends writing on my latest thread asked about the exact episode in which this conversation took place, I was stumped and could not remember it.

Now, Shwetha has very cleverly located that episode, No,49, and produced the full text of Jalal's remarks then, the ones I had remembered.

"That was episode no. 49 Motibai Mughal-e-Aazam, where Jalal mentioned Hakim for the first time in court.

'Kabul me Mirza Hakim ki manmaani baghawat ki had tak badh gayi hai. Kabul sultenate ki sarhad hai, Kandahar/Gandhar ko mehfooz rakhna sultenate ki hifazat aur uske rasookh ke liye ahem hai. Hame usse iss tarah sambhalana hai ki kisi ko khabar na pade ki waha kabhi koi takleef aayi thi'"

Given this, the present avatar of Mirza, plus Jalal's overflowing affection for him, seem illogical and puzzling. I suspect the present lot of CVs has not seen that episode,and as for standing history on its head, why, what then is the 30 second daily disclaimer for?😉😉

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: Bobby13

Shyamala aunty,

I tried to reply to your post twice. I wrote so much and lost the post both the times. It gave some error realated to me being newby. I will try to post some time today.

Originally posted by: Bobby13

Dear Lashy, thanks a lot for explaining the logic for hand holding in so much detail. I really appreciate the effort you put to make us understand (even though not sure I am convinced). Hope these are feelings that creatives also wanted to display there. Somehow I am not enjoying the Akdha intimate scenes during the time when there are so much misunderstandings, as much as I used to do pre-rejection track.

Originally posted by: Bobby13

Shyamala aunty, I tried to quote and reply inline. That did not work. So I am doing it as separate post. Hope this works.

Firstly , don't worry about changing my views. I am quite stubborn myself and very rarely change my views. But I am definitely open to other point of views. I am very comfortable agreeing to disagree, because that's what I do with my boss every day at office 😊

1. About Jodha not understanding Hakim and Jalal's pain, I still feel she understands their pain. Otherwise can you imaging touch me not Jodha to go to her Devarji's bed room in the night to check on him? Also her strong words to Bharamal shows that she can understand how much pain he caused Hakim and Jalal. Otherwise the lady who feels pride in forgiving everybody, why not forgives her father. I wanted to know what she was trying to tell Jalal when he stopped her. Creatives definitely should give more self talks to Jodha so that we can understand what's going on in her mind. I really hoped she was not trying to tell Jalal to forgive Shivani. I did not want her to do that. I wanted the exact opposite of what happened in BB case. Jalal should forgive Shivani (After Hakim's recommendation of course) and Jodha not forgiving Shivani. That would have been good parallel.

2. About Jodha in BB case - I felt Jodha requested Jalal to forgive BB precisely because she understood how much pain he was in after not forgiving his dear sister. Being an emperor, he could not forgive BB, but being a brother, not forgiving her pained him a lot. Nobody else could understand and feel that. Only Jodha could feel that. She did not ask Jalal to forgive BB for the sake of BB. But she asked that for the sake of Jalal. That's when for the first time I felt that only Jodha can understand Jalal and Jalal can be comfortable showing his softer side (non-emperor side) only to Jodha.

3. About Hamida Banu - I feel really sad for this mother and son. It's unfortunate to see the drift between them which might have been created for following reasons:

1. Hamida was not with Jalal when he was child and that's when the bonding with mother and son gets strong.

2. There is a deep hurt in Jalal's heart because he feels that he is abandoned by his parents when he was a child.

3. Mahamanga was always there with him and I am sure had done enough to widen this drift between mother and son.

4. Hamida is very mild and does not know how to make Jalal vent out the anger (Like how Jodha could do most of the time). Because of this the wall that Jalal put around him could not be broken by Hamida and they remained distant.

It's sad to see them so distant when it was not the fault of both of them. I hope their relationship will become better after Mahamanga dies.

Thanks aunty for the nice discussions.

As for me, I could not make out how the CVs propose to transform this fast track candidate for sainthood into the hostile Mirza Hakim who was a thorn in Jalal's side for most of his short adult life, which ended at 32. We know that nothing is beyond their powers😉, but still, this one is going to take some hard work. Especially since the Shivani fiasco is clearly not going to lead to a falling out between the brothers.

Originally posted by: Bobby13

Hi shyamala Aunty, About Hakim Mirza, I had posted my take in Mansi's thread. I am posting the same here:

Why I feel Hakim is innocent currently is he is not showing his grief outside, but crying when he is alone. If he had some grand plans and if he had not loved the girl, there was no need for him to cry when he is alone (Jalal and Jodha happened to visit his room in the night to check on him and that was by chance). Also following are also the other points I felt which are favoring Hakim:

1. Abul Mali himself said that Hakim is pro Jalal and he can not get much help from him as of now.

2. Hakim did not need to talk about Visha kanyas to Jodha and did not have to give Benu's letter to Jalal (If Jalal had his brains working during that time, he would have definitely broken the code) if he wanted to hide something. He had already got the trust of Salima, Jalal by telling them that Abul Mali is planning against Jalal. So there was no need to give extra information to gain trust, he was already trusted by Jalal and his family.

3. If he wanted to get the trust from Ameri family for future use, he would have declared when they were around to release Bharamal and forgive Shivani. He would not have done this only with Jalal in private. Currently Ameri family or Jodha does not know that Bharamal is released because of Hakim's recommendation. They all think it's Jalal's "badappan" that he forgave Bharamal.

The above argument was only after seeing how they treated Hakim's charecter during this month. I did not know about creatives blunder that you mentioned below. Now I don't know how they will take this further if the old creatives are back from the holidays😊

Originally posted by: sashashyam

I can see, young Bobby, that you are a nice, warmhearted, optimistic young lady. I hope you stay that way as long as possible. I am 60+ and having seen a lot more of life and people than you, am a semi-cynic, which in practical terms means a realist.

I also see that you have skipped all those instances I had cited when Jodha was at her worst behaved. Clever!

Just one point. Nothing that you have listed out in favour of Hamida Banu explains why she was never there to comfort her son when he is in great emotional distress, or Ruqaiya for that matter after she lost the baby.But if Jodha sneezes, she materialises like Aladdin's djinn with a handkerchief and a kaada!

She is the kind of mother I would never have wanted to have; she is there for everyone except her children.Does she go to comfort Mirza now? No, but she goes to comfort Bharmal & Co. She slaps Bakshi Banu for what was after all a private crime, and rails at her, but what Shivani does, which disgraces the Mughal empire publicly and makes Mirza and Jalal a laughing stock, is a nadaani.
How much more biased can one be, that too against one's own children?

The love of your children is not automatic, you have to earn it. Hamida does zilch to earn it from Jalal.

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: Bobby13

Aunty, I was not being clever, honestly. I posted my reply to each and every comment of yours, but unfortunately lost them all (Twice, although second time the content was lesser). Then I did a individual post and I could not remember all the points as I was not commenting in line and I had surely lost my patience by that time . So I just wrote whatever was top of my mind. I had counter argument for everything but one thing. So to prove you that I am not avoiding, I will touch upon that one topic below😉

Ok, I think what you wanted me to comment on Jodha's resistance to physical intimacy.I am not sure I can defend her much on that aspect. I would have defended her till she was hating Jalal to the core. That time it made sense to me. But not after Ajmer, Amer and false pregnancy tracks. Here I have to agree with you (even though reluctantly because I like Jodha a lot ). But my week defense will be that it's creatives doings because they know these are the things that sell 😉. But for that my poor Jodha has to suffer the wrath of all Jalal lovers .

Originally posted by: Bobby13

Shyamala aunty, I tried to quote and reply inline. That did not work. So I am doing it as separate post. Hope this works.

Firstly , don't worry about changing my views. I am quite stubborn myself and very rarely change my views. But I am definitely open to other point of views. I am very comfortable agreeing to disagree, because that's what I do with my boss every day at office 😊

1. About Jodha not understanding Hakim and Jalal's pain, I still feel she understands their pain. Otherwise can you imaging touch me not Jodha to go to her Devarji's bed room in the night to check on him? Also her strong words to Bharamal shows that she can understand how much pain he caused Hakim and Jalal. Otherwise the lady who feels pride in forgiving everybody, why not forgives her father. I wanted to know what she was trying to tell Jalal when he stopped her. Creatives definitely should give more self talks to Jodha so that we can understand what's going on in her mind. I really hoped she was not trying to tell Jalal to forgive Shivani. I did not want her to do that. I wanted the exact opposite of what happened in BB case. Jalal should forgive Shivani (After Hakim's recommendation of course) and Jodha not forgiving Shivani. That would have been good parallel.

2. About Jodha in BB case - I felt Jodha requested Jalal to forgive BB precisely because she understood how much pain he was in after not forgiving his dear sister. Being an emperor, he could not forgive BB, but being a brother, not forgiving her pained him a lot. Nobody else could understand and feel that. Only Jodha could feel that. She did not ask Jalal to forgive BB for the sake of BB. But she asked that for the sake of Jalal. That's when for the first time I felt that only Jodha can understand Jalal and Jalal can be comfortable showing his softer side (non-emperor side) only to Jodha.

3. About Hamida Banu - I feel really sad for this mother and son. It's unfortunate to see the drift between them which might have been created for following reasons:

1. Hamida was not with Jalal when he was child and that's when the bonding with mother and son gets strong.

2. There is a deep hurt in Jalal's heart because he feels that he is abandoned by his parents when he was a child.

3. Mahamanga was always there with him and I am sure had done enough to widen this drift between mother and son.

4. Hamida is very mild and does not know how to make Jalal vent out the anger (Like how Jodha could do most of the time). Because of this the wall that Jalal put around him could not be broken by Hamida and they remained distant.

It's sad to see them so distant when it was not the fault of both of them. I hope their relationship will become better after Mahamanga dies.

Thanks aunty for the nice discussions.