Jodha Akbar 56: Confusion worse confounded - Page 3

No, Janhvi, Ela,

I do not think it was rigged. I do not think Ruqaiya sees Jodha as a threat, and she would not go into all this risky business just to get her into trouble. Think of the risk of her being found out and destroyed!

Shyamala

Originally posted by: soapwatcher1

I kinda believe this too. Ruq's pregnancy news came too quickly on the heels of Sishti baby's prediction.

Shyamala, the miscarriage scene could have been rigged but Ruq's genuine grief threw me off.

Originally posted by: elasingh

I had written in ur earlier post that Ruku seems more interested in getting revenge from Jodha...I think she never was pregnant in the first place...She is an insecure wife who became even more insecure when she heard Pir baba's bhavshyavani...Hence the saazish...

My view is this...

But I could be wrong...😆

Originally posted by: sashashyam

So, Ela dear, could we all, all be wrong, starting with yours truly, as was resoundingly demonstrated yesterday!😉

Shyamala

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Sonya dear, thank you so much for liking my stuff, and it is good to have you back, though I must say that you are still as predictable as ever!😉

My dear, I do agree that Jalal should have been less OTT in his reaction, he is shown from the beginning as prone to such rages, and here the rage is as much because he feels betrayed by a woman whom he had begun to respect, admire and care for, as because of his personal loss. Still, the Shahenshah should have kicked in earlier, and by himself, without needing his Ammijaan to catalyse the process.

But please do NOT equate illiteracy with the absence wisdom and a sense of balance and moderation, and by inference, education with the presence of these very qualities. Jalal may have said that as he feels bitter about what he has not learnt, but surely you would have thought this one thru?

It is a fallacy to assume that education automatically broadens the mind and makes one wise, tolerant and compassionate. Aurangzeb was very well educated, and so were Stalin, Hitler and Franco. Mao tse Tung wrote fairly decent poetry as well, and many of the worst Nazi mass murderers were great devotees of the German classics and of Wagner's wonderful operas. Did that make them any less of bloodthirsty, conscienceless killers en masse?

On the contrary, many poor, illiterate people in the rural areas are wise and compassionate and generous. I have personally known any number of them, both men and women.

So your thesis is a non starter.

Next, the evidence against Jodha and her brothers is not circumstantial. it is physical evidence, and it is pretty tight. In Italy or France or England in the same period, the accused would have been executed on similar evidence, and often was.

But it is true that by tracing the movement of the kesar and identifying all those who had access to it from the time Bhagwan Das brought it to Agra to the time he handed it over to Jodha at the jashn, Jodha could have ended up as not proven guilty. This is precisely the point that Hamida Banu raises, and as we saw, she finally does manage to stem Jalal's insensate rage. He obviously releases them from custody pending further investigation, but that does not mean he believes in their innocence.

You see, Sonya, it might be easier to prove that Jodha had no hand in it, but it might not be equally easy in the case of her brothers, for the kesar was back with them at the jashn, and they have a motive, the same one that was voiced by Mynavati when she learns whose baby is on the way, that this would lessen Jodha's standing in Agra.

Finally, are you a Christie fan? If so, you would remember, in several of her Poirot mysteries, that Hercule Poirot insists that he must get at the truth, not only to punish the guilty, but even more so to exculpate the innocent beyond the shadow of a doubt, for otherwise, their lives would not be worth living. So would it be for Jodha. And there is a very major difference between proved innocent and not proven guilty.

Shyamala Aunty

Jahnvi dear, see how nice it is to have you here!😉 Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I chose Mansingh to do the near impossible as he is a great favourite of mine, but he let me down. He could at least have said what Hamida Banu said later about the kesar having been checked and cleared at the time of their arrival and not seen again by them till it was, presumably, handed to them at the jashn for formal presentation. Just reiterating the mantra of Rajput non-treachery as if it was a given - think Jaichand, the third queen in Maharana Pratap,and any number of murderous Rajput palace inmates down the ages!! - would hardly mean anything.

I agree with you about the subterranean reason for Jalal's insensate rage, but there is also the element of personal betrayal by a woman he had grown to respect, admire, and care for. The line between love and hate is a very narrow one, and he has now tipped the other way. What does Othello do to Desdemona, Janhvi, and on what evidence? Nothing stronger than this one; was it not? So it is with men and women alike when they as if possessed.

As for Jodha, she is not just tongue-tied, she simply does not seemto understand, even after being exposed to his great love for children, what he must be going thru,whereas she is quick to empathise even with the very hostile and arrogant Ruqaiya.

Nothing will be found out and the whole will never be clarified, I think. How can they prove anything like access to the kesar (please see my response to Sonya above) conclusively in such a large palace.?At best , Jodha will end up as not proven guilty. And the matter will be dropped.

The question is not so much how she can fall in love with him. A wise and compassionate woman could understand where he is coming from and forgive him. Wives forgive their husbands all the time for things with far less of an excuse. The question rather is that if she gets off merely because she cannot be proven guilty, and he continues to believe that she is guilty, then how can he fall in love with her? As Poirot says in Death in the Clouds, you can fall in love with a thief or a cheat, but not with a cold blooded murderer.

Shyamala

Originally posted by: soapwatcher1

Dear Shyamala, a masterpiece as always. 👏
But I was not disappointed by Mann Singh, what could a mere child do? He spoke up bravely in spite of the Emperor's wrath, stated what his own father and kin couldn't, that the Rajputs could never be treacherous AND he walked up to his father and stood beside him assuming guilt and accepting all resultant punishment. Beyond brave especially at that tender an age.

Yes, I was disappointed, disappointed with Jalal. It is a personal battle that rages within him, his inability so far to have an heir. That is why when he was told Ruqayya was pregnant with child, he was jubilant, he had overcome a personal failure, the failure to father a child. What use of queens and a harem if the Emperor, THE Man among men could not have a child? Yes, this is the reason for his unspeakable and inexplainable joy and also the reason for his current rage. But, more than that emotion of personal failure and loss, he is an Emperor, and it is his duty to mete out justice and not lash out punishment in a frenzy. As the Shehenshah, he has to rise above personal loss which he did not today.

Jodha was tongue-tied in the face of his white hot fury and I for one was aghast at the cruelty of this man. How she can fall in love with him is yet to be seen. Ruquaaya looked and acted well today, felt badly for the Empress who had pinned her hopes on this unborn child that she had wanted to gift her shauhar, her cousin, friend, and confidante.

Maham looked appropriately guilty at the mention of the mirchi incident. My bet is on Adham, he is the one responsible for Jodha's plight. Maybe he will be outed and killed soon but that will put an end to Maham Anga (history says she died a few days after her son was thrown twice from the fort and killed) and that just wouldn't happen in this soap. So let us wait to see what transpires.
In the meantime, hope to read more pearls of wisdom from your erstwhile pen.

Thank you so much, Ela. It is always good to receive well thought out support for one's stand, even if one is convinced of it oneself. Your comments are spot on.

Shyamala

Originally posted by: elasingh

Shyamala I could n't agree more with ur literacy point...Jalal might be illiterate but he was wisest of all...and It was an idiotic line spoken by EK's Jalal...

He never needed any Jodha to make him wise...

The evidances against Jodha and Co. are very strong and Jalal is not wrong in distrusting Jodha...

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Sonya dear, thank you so much for liking my stuff, and it is good to have you back, though I must say that you are still as predictable as ever!😉

My dear, I do agree that Jalal should have been less OTT in his reaction, he is shown from the beginning as prone to such rages, and here the rage is as much because he feels betrayed by a woman whom he had begun to respect, admire and care for, as because of his personal loss. Still, the Shahenshah should have kicked in earlier, and by himself, without needing his Ammijaan to catalyse the process.

But please do NOT equate illiteracy with the absence wisdom and a sense of balance and moderation, and by inference, education with the presence of these very qualities. Jalal may have said that as he feels bitter about what he has not learnt, but surely you would have thought this one thru?

It is a fallacy to assume that education automatically broadens the mind and makes one wise, tolerant and compassionate. Aurangzeb was very well educated, and so were Stalin, Hitler and Franco. Mao tse Tung wrote fairly decent poetry as well, and many of the worst Nazi mass murderers were great devotees of the German classics and of Wagner's wonderful operas. Did that make them any less of bloodthirsty, conscienceless killers en masse?

On the contrary, many poor, illiterate people in the rural areas are wise and compassionate and generous. I have personally known any number of them, both men and women.

So your thesis is a non starter.

Next, the evidence against Jodha and her brothers is not circumstantial. it is physical evidence, and it is pretty tight. In Italy or France or England in the same period, the accused would have been executed on similar evidence, and often was.

But it is true that by tracing the movement of the kesar and identifying all those who had access to it from the time Bhagwan Das brought it to Agra to the time he handed it over to Jodha at the jashn, Jodha could have ended up as not proven guilty. This is precisely the point that Hamida Banu raises, and as we saw, she finally does manage to stem Jalal's insensate rage. He obviously releases them from custody pending further investigation, but that does not mean he believes in their innocence.

You see, Sonya, it might be easier to prove that Jodha had no hand in it, but it might not be equally easy in the case of her brothers, for the kesar was back with them at the jashn, and they have a motive, the same one that was voiced by Mynavati when she learns whose baby is on the way, that this would lessen Jodha's standing in Agra.

Finally, are you a Christie fan? If so, you would remember, in several of her Poirot mysteries, that Hercule Poirot insists that he must get at the truth, not only to punish the guilty, but even more so to exculpate the innocent beyond the shadow of a doubt, for otherwise, their lives would not be worth living. So would it be for Jodha. And there is a very major difference between proved innocent and not proven guilty.

Shyamala Aunty

Mansi my dear, do take it easy and be a good, sensible girl! It does not matter who it is, for Jodha will be cleared one way or the other. I for one have given up trying to guess who it might be, and I would advise you to do the same and not lose sleep over it. I do not believe that Ruqaiya faked it; the risk would be too great.

I now think, for whatever it is worth, that it was Adham and that woman he was talking to.

As for the Bharmal-Mynavati track, it sound cockeyed to me, what is it with a 'small war'?

Shyamala

Originally posted by: skanda12

Shyamala:

What can I say? One more week of this suspense will surely kill me a thousand times?

The thing is "EVERYBODY's" demeanour is casting shadows on them for me, and that includes Maham, Adham, Sharifuddin, that extra lady in the courtyard (who is apparently another Badi Ammi of Jalal who surfaced two days ago and he admitted to her that she had also nursed him with her milk when he was a baby). (By the way who is she and why did she suddenly come into the story two days ago and why was she given prominence in the Tuesday episode as she talks to a fat courtier.)

I suspect also that it could be a random begum from the harem, pissed with Ruqaiya ... maybe in the end it will be none of the usual suspects, and it will be a random disgruntled harem inmate?

And hear this, last night I was tossing and turning also suspecting Ruqaiya ... what if she had in cahoots with the midwife faked this whole pregnancy? Then it would have been nothing bigger if she had also faked the miscarriage and the kesar story and thus implicated Jodha? Would she have taken this big a risk based on her ability to pull off a fake of this dimension? Did she have a motive: Yes, could be especially after Jalal started in her presence saying Jodha was a fine swordswoman and a major "good at everything" girl ... and in her presence Jalal also said "Dil se jeetna hai ya dimaag se" ... and Jodha trounced her at chess ... and to make things worse, the Pirbaba prophesied that Jodha would produce the waaris soon ...

Would Ruq have the motive and the means to do it if she wanted to? Yes, probably yes? Were her tears for the loss of her baby real? Who knows ... was she really after the marium title, or the baby, or was she really rather more against Jodha?

Would Maham, Adham and Sharif have done it? All had two sets of motives - one against Jalal/waaris and another against Jodha ... so why not?

So here I am in knots. If I discount everybody's anger, facial expressions and tears etc. and look purely at means and motives, I am unable to discount anyone, not even Ruqaiyya.

So unless you all wish to see me in Ward 207 of the local mental hospital soon, someone, please tell me WHO DUN IT!

Waise, one forum member has posted a spoiler today that Bharmal and Mainavati will today arrive, pacify Jalal and enter into an agreement whereby eventually there may be a small war and the real culprit found. Could that be the reason for a picture suddenly surfacing two days ago on some FB page where all the Amer Brothers, including Mansingh, were in helmets and armoury?

If this spoiler is true trust Bharmal to come up with such a strategy - could that mean he knows the criminal needs to be "won at war"? Could the reason for the precap showing Jodha's brothers freed but still at the mercy of Jalal's anger be because the war strategy has now been accepted as the way forward?

Oh God, more knots!

Originally posted by: sashashyam

<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Jahnvi dear, see how nice it is to have you here!😉 Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I chose Mansingh to do the near impossible as he is a great favourite of mine, but he let me down. He could at least have said what Hamida Banu said later about the kesar having been checked and cleared at the time of their arrival and not seen again by them till it was, presumably, handed to them at the jashn for formal presentation. Just reiterating the mantra of Rajput non-treachery as if it was a given - think Jaichand, the third queen in Maharana Pratap,and any number of murderous Rajput palace inmates down the ages!! - would hardly mean anything.

I agree with you about the subterranean reason for Jalal's insensate rage, but there is also the element of personal betrayal by a woman he had grown to respect, admire, and care for. The line between love and hate is a very narrow one, and he has now tipped the other way. What does Othello do to Desdemona, Janhvi, and on what evidence? Nothing stronger than this one; was it not? So it is with men and women alike when they as if possessed. </font>
<font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">
As for Jodha,
she is not just tongue-tied, she simply does not seemto understand, even
after being exposed to his great love for children, what he must be
going thru,whereas she is quick to empathise even with the very hostile
and arrogant Ruqaiya.

</font>Nothing will be found out and the whole will never be clarified, I think. How can they prove anything like access to the kesar (please see my response to Sonya above) conclusively in such a large palace.?At best , Jodha will end up as not proven guilty. And the matter will be dropped.

The question is not so much how she can fall in love with him. A wise and compassionate woman could understand where he is coming from and forgive him. Wives forgive their husbands all the time for things with far less of an excuse. The question rather is that if she gets off merely because she cannot be proven guilty, and he continues to believe that she is guilty, then how can he fall in love with her? As Poirot says in Death in the Clouds, you can fall in love with a thief or a cheat, but not with a cold blooded murderer.

Shyamala


</font>

Am a bit handicapped as I am on my phone which is acting up :( With that disclaimer, Othello and Desdemona are an entirely different story. They are in every sense a married couple, she loved him, he knew that and the betrayal that he thought it was came from someone beloved so that much more horrendous. Perhaps less excuse for having loved and lived together, Othello had to have known better.

Jalal on the other hand has admired, hated, admired Jodha from afar. Note I repeated "admired" and did not say "loved" for he does not yet love her. It is all in Jalal's head, this frenzied admiration for Jodha, one sided and unrequited. He is no love lorn teenager to be losing control over the fact that the lady he admires has "cheated" him. He cannot brook that idea so does not give her a chance to explain? He wants to burn them all alive? How cruel and fiendish!! I did not like him dwelling on Jodha fondly when Ruq was talking to him about their baby the other day, smacked of betrayal to me. If he loved the baby so which no doubt he did (more for the wrong reasons than the right ones?) why let the thought of his other begum intrude upon the happiness of Ruq? He is an emperor and has to adhere to higher standards not be swayed by emotions like a mere mortal. His son Jahangir when he meted out justice was prepared to punish his own beloved wife, Nur Jahan, because he distanced his personal feelings from that of an emperor meting out justice.

As always Very nice post aunty.. loved reading ur analysis.. and please do take care of urself😊

Originally posted by: SonyaBlade

Hi Shyamala Aunty,

This has been a busy month so I haven't posted nearly as much as I would have liked to to your wonderfully delicious threads...however I'm here today...

1) Loved everything you wrote about MA. Wow...I was also pleasantly surprised at the depth of emotion that we saw from her for Jalal's unborn child...but what gets me is why was everyone celebrating something that was only a few months past...I mean its not uncommon for a woman to have a miscarriage...at least wait until the danger period is over. I thought the entire business of having a Jushan right away to be just crazy...and that someone needed to mentally shake our grand Shenshah to say...wait wait wait...anything can happen right now. just take a step back for a moment...

2) He sought Jodha out when she gave her gift...he knows that all of the gifts were tested before they were presented to Ruqaiya...he himself sought out the explanation from Jodha which she gave whole heartedly...and honors her in front of everyone. I find it useless for him to be so blinded by this rage to not realize even after his mother had said...that when was it possible for Jodha to have mixed the poison into the Kesar, after it was tested...that's the crux of the issue.

By it being the Kesar should not in and of itself be the sole reason for why he is suspecting Jodha. That doesn't make any sense...and so I find Jalal's anger and justice with Jodha and her family to be completely irrational, stupid and utterly shows that he is an illiterate ________...(ummm I won't fill in the blank) ;

you know when he said in one of the episodes, maybe that is the difference between an educated man and an illiterate one...

Well that line came to mind for me in today's episode...I was just thinking...Jalal you are showing your side that is unsophisticated, uneducated and completely blinded by your emotions...and yet this is the same man who preaches over and over again that he has no heart...(except for a child)...

So when it comes to Jodha...your last line 'wake up and smell the coffee'...I think you are being harsh on the wrong person.

The one who needs to wake up is not Jodha...it is Jalal. The way he treated her in her bedroom,...just rushing in without weighing the evidence, without thinking of the situation...is this the same man who said 'that he investigates matters, especially when they involve a WOMAN'' I just can't believe how he is behaving with his own WIFE...

What can Jodha do right now...he has put her in a situation which she has almost no way of getting out of...(of course hte writers will invent something good for us) but really...its just as Jodha said...people are punished in this realm without being able to prove their innocence...and its ALL CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence...this evidence that he says proves without any doubt for him that Jodha and her brothers are guilty is just plain irrational.. I'm appalled that his sense of Justice...which is apparently second to none...and remember him saying 'I would rather 1000 people walk away free, rather than one innocent be punished...' Where is all of this now...

I'm appalled and Jalal IMO is the one that needs to be reminded of his own policies and his own standards and wake up and smell the coffee...

Until next time Aunty...

Sonya