B R Chopra portrayal of Karna with reference to KMG - Page 5

Originally posted by: Urmila11

@ smrth:

Karna could be friend of Kauravas even before joining Gurukul so he could be party to Bheem given poison nothing contradicting in it. Adhirath was sarathi of Hastinapur and also friend of Dhritarashtra and hence Karna's friendship with Duryodhan (or at least introduction) before Gurukul of Drona is logically acceptable and surely no way contradicting.

Here is a citation from KMG:

"And the Kurus beholding the Pandavas gifted with physical strength, energy, and power of mind, popular also with the citizens, and blessed with good fortune, became very jealous. Then the crooked minded Duryodhana, and Karna, with (the former's uncle) the son of Suvala began to persecute them and devise means for their exit..The wicked son of Dhritarashtra gave poison to Bhima, but Bhima of the stomach of the wolf digested the poison with the food. Then the wretch again tied the sleeping Bhima on the margin of the Ganges and, casting him into the water, went away. "

"Hear, O monarch, why that disunion occurred between the Kurus and the Pandavas, and why also that exile into the woods immediately proceeding from the game at dice prompted by the desire (of the Kurus) for rule. I shall relate all to thee who askest it thou best of the Bharata race!

Here vaisampayan is mentioning that he will tell all incidents that occurred between kauaras and panadavs

On the death of their father those heroes (the Pandavas) came to their own home. And within a short time they became well-versed in archery. And the Kurus beholding the Pandavas gifted with physical strength, energy, and power of mind, popular also with the citizens, and blessed with good fortune, became very jealous. Then the crookedminded Duryodhana, and Karna, with (the former's uncle) the son of Suvala began to persecute them and devise means for their exile

the first bold line clearly states that panadavs become well versed in archery this could very well be the gurukul where they learnt archery.After that comes the citation that beholding their prowess dury and karna and shakuni start forming plans

Then comes the poisoning incident in which karna is not mentioned any where

Then the wicked Duryodhana, guided by the counsels of Sakuni (his maternal uncle), persecuted the Pandavas in various ways for the acquirement of undisputed sovereignty. The wicked son of Dhritarashtra gave poison to Bhima, but Bhima of the stomach of the wolf digested the poison with the food. Then the wretch again tied the sleeping Bhima on the margin of the Ganges and, casting him into the water, went away. But when Bhimasena of strong arms, the son of Kunti woke, he tore the strings with which he had been tied and came up, his pains all gone. And while asleep and in the water black snakesof virulent poison bit him in every part of his body. But that slayer of foes did not still perish. And in all those persecutions of the Pandavas by their cousins, the Kurus, the high-minded Vidura attentively engaged himself neutralising those evil designs and rescuing the persecuted ones. And as Sakra from the heavens keeps in happiness the world of men, so did Vidura always keep the Pandavas from evil.

Another thing to notice is that its clearly mentioned that Bhima digests the poison so this is not the childhood vasuki incident since bhima digests the poison in food and also that of snakesafter this vaisampayan directly jumps to house of lac incident

When Duryodhana, with various means, both secret and open, found himself incapable of destroying the Pandavas who were protected by the fates and kept alive for grave future purposes (such as the extermination of the Kuru race), then called together his counsellors consisting of Vrisha (Karna), Duhsasana and others, and with the knowledge of Dhritarashtra caused a house of lac to be constructed. And king Dhritarashtra, from affection for his children, and prompted by the desire of sovereignty, sent the Pandavas tactfully into Varanavata. And the Pandavas then went away with their mother from Hastinapura. And when they were leaving the city, Vidura gave them some idea of impending danger and how they could come out of it.

then he proceeds to tell the entire story from birth of gatotkacha to khandavprasth to arjuna's exile to dice game

so here he is basically telling the history of pandavas with no reference to what happened when

Originally posted by: Urmila11

@ smrth:

Karna could be friend of Kauravas even before joining Gurukul so he could be party to Bheem given poison nothing contradicting in it. Adhirath was sarathi of Hastinapur and also friend of Dhritarashtra and hence Karna's friendship with Duryodhan (or at least introduction) before Gurukul of Drona is logically acceptable and surely no way contradicting.

Here is a citation from KMG:

"And the Kurus beholding the Pandavas gifted with physical strength, energy, and power of mind, popular also with the citizens, and blessed with good fortune, became very jealous. Then the crooked minded Duryodhana, and Karna, with (the former's uncle) the son of Suvala began to persecute them and devise means for their exit..The wicked son of Dhritarashtra gave poison to Bhima, but Bhima of the stomach of the wolf digested the poison with the food. Then the wretch again tied the sleeping Bhima on the margin of the Ganges and, casting him into the water, went away. "

Originally posted by: Urmila11

@ smrth:

Shivang dadabhai (the TM) read your post on the first day and was very very happy to see your acknowledgement and wanted to reply you along with his reply to Janaki, Surya and Amrita. But on that day, he couldn't reply since page were taking time in loading and his connectivity was poor and it was very late night. He met me on FB messenger from his phone and told me this that his connectivity is still very poor on laptop so I should convey his thanks and regards to you since he may not be able to login this week.

And thanks from my side for your comments here 😊

Kama replied, 'When thou hast said it, I regard it as already accomplished. I only long for thy friendship. And, O lord, my wish is even for a single combat with Arjuna.' Duryodhana said, 'Do thou with me enjoy the good things of life! Be thou the benefactor of thy friend, and, O represser of enemies, place thou thy feet on the heads of all foes."

And Suyodhana said unto him, 'I eagerly wish for thy friendship.' Thus spoken to, Karna replied, 'Be it so.' And they embraced each other in joy, and experienced great happiness

why will they be eager to be friends if they were already friends .

So my understanding if i take both citations into account not just one is that karna and dury may have met in gurukul and karna may have had some kind of altercation with arjuna but neither of the associations were long or strong enough to be termed as friendship or enmity.This would explain both the citations

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

No.24 - False, Karna made Arjuna unconscious when he got down from the chariot, he asked Arjuna to let him remove his wheel but Arjuna declined and hence the latter was made unconscious by Karna.

"...That shaft of keen point and endued with the effulgence of Sakra's thunder, sped from Karna's arms, fell upon Dhananjaya's chest and penetrated it like a mighty snake penetrating an ant-hill. That grinder of foes, viz., the high-souled Vibhatsu, thus deeply pierced in that encounter, began to reel. His grasp became loosened, at which his bow Gandiva dropped from his hand. He trembled like the prince of mountains in an earthquake. Availing himself of that opportunity, the mighty car-warrior Vrisha, desirous of extricating his car-wheel that had been swallowed up by the earth, jumped down from his vehicle..."

Note that Karna tried to take out his chariot wheel thrice, first immediately after his wheel was sunk, second after he baffled Arjuna's Brahmastra and thrid when he made Arjuna unconscious

Karna was trying to take out the chariot wheel from both of the hands, can you tell me if Karna had a third hand in which he was holding a weapon. Karna was not holding a weapon and was facing backwards.

Originally posted by: Urmila11

@ smrth:

Karna could be friend of Kauravas even before joining Gurukul so he could be party to Bheem given poison nothing contradicting in it. Adhirath was sarathi of Hastinapur and also friend of Dhritarashtra and hence Karna's friendship with Duryodhan (or at least introduction) before Gurukul of Drona is logically acceptable and surely no way contradicting.

Here is a citation from KMG:

"And the Kurus beholding the Pandavas gifted with physical strength, energy, and power of mind, popular also with the citizens, and blessed with good fortune, became very jealous. Then the crooked minded Duryodhana, and Karna, with (the former's uncle) the son of Suvala began to persecute them and devise means for their exit..The wicked son of Dhritarashtra gave poison to Bhima, but Bhima of the stomach of the wolf digested the poison with the food. Then the wretch again tied the sleeping Bhima on the margin of the Ganges and, casting him into the water, went away. "

Shivang dadabhai (the TM) read your post on the first day and was very very happy to see your acknowledgement and wanted to reply you along with his reply to Janaki, Surya and Amrita. But on that day, he couldn't reply since page were taking time in loading and his connectivity was poor and it was very late night. He met me on FB messenger from his phone and told me this that his connectivity is still very poor on laptop so I should convey his thanks and regards to you since he may not be able to login this week.

And thanks from my side for your comments here 😊

Originally posted by: Medha.S

The citations from the gurukul do not say they meet for the first time in gurukul -- do they? So how come Karna's involvement in Bheems poisoning contradicts Karna becoming a student of gurukul? Were princes refrained from hanging out with the sons of the charioteers that worked for their family?

"Hear, O monarch, why that disunion occurred between the Kurus and the Pandavas, and why also that exile into the woods immediately proceeding from the game at dice prompted by the desire (of the Kurus) for rule. I shall relate all to thee who askest it thou best of the Bharata race!

Here vaisampayan is mentioning that he will tell all incidents that occurred between kauaras and panadavs

On the death of their father those heroes (the Pandavas) came to their own home. And within a short time they became well-versed in archery. And the Kurus beholding the Pandavas gifted with physical strength, energy, and power of mind, popular also with the citizens, and blessed with good fortune, became very jealous. Then the crookedminded Duryodhana, and Karna, with (the former's uncle) the son of Suvala began to persecute them and devise means for their exile

the first bold line clearly states that panadavs become well versed in archery this could very well be the gurukul where they learnt archery.After that comes the citation that beholding their prowess dury and karna and shakuni start forming plans

Then comes the poisoning incident in which karna is not mentioned any where

Then the wicked Duryodhana, guided by the counsels of Sakuni (his maternal uncle), persecuted the Pandavas in various ways for the acquirement of undisputed sovereignty. The wicked son of Dhritarashtra gave poison to Bhima, but Bhima of the stomach of the wolf digested the poison with the food. Then the wretch again tied the sleeping Bhima on the margin of the Ganges and, casting him into the water, went away. But when Bhimasena of strong arms, the son of Kunti woke, he tore the strings with which he had been tied and came up, his pains all gone. And while asleep and in the water black snakesof virulent poison bit him in every part of his body. But that slayer of foes did not still perish. And in all those persecutions of the Pandavas by their cousins, the Kurus, the high-minded Vidura attentively engaged himself neutralising those evil designs and rescuing the persecuted ones. And as Sakra from the heavens keeps in happiness the world of men, so did Vidura always keep the Pandavas from evil.

Another thing to notice is that its clearly mentioned that Bhima digests the poison so this is not the childhood vasuki incident since bhima digests the poison in food and also that of snakesafter this vaisampayan directly jumps to house of lac incident

When Duryodhana, with various means, both secret and open, found himself incapable of destroying the Pandavas who were protected by the fates and kept alive for grave future purposes (such as the extermination of the Kuru race), then called together his counsellors consisting of Vrisha (Karna), Duhsasana and others, and with the knowledge of Dhritarashtra caused a house of lac to be constructed. And king Dhritarashtra, from affection for his children, and prompted by the desire of sovereignty, sent the Pandavas tactfully into Varanavata. And the Pandavas then went away with their mother from Hastinapura. And when they were leaving the city, Vidura gave them some idea of impending danger and how they could come out of it.

then he proceeds to tell the entire story from birth of gatotkacha to khandavprasth to arjuna's exile to dice game

so here he is basically telling the history of pandavas with no reference to what happened when

Originally posted by: Medha.S

If it would have mentioned that they actually met the first time in Gurukul, that would have contradicted the fact that Karna was involved in Bheems poisoning.

Yes, during the poisoning he was not 'physically present' with Duryodhana -- but Shakuni and Karna being involved in the poisoning has been mentioned and then confirmed in two citations from Adi Parva andKarna Parva.

Shakuni and Karna both were counselling Duryodhana -- and Karna was no child, he was quite older than Yudhishtira -- If Duryodhana was a teenager, Karna was in his twenties.

Then there would be claims that just because he was counselling Duryodhna, doesnt mean he knew about the plan or agreed to it... Really?🥱

Then the crooked minded Duryodhana, and Karna, with (the former's uncle) the son of Suvala began to persecute them and devise means for their exit..The wicked son of Dhritarashtra gave poison to Bhima, but Bhima of the stomach of the wolf digested the poison with the food. Then the wretch again tied the sleeping Bhima on the margin of the Ganges and, casting him into the water, went away.

Krishna addressing Karna :-

"Then Vasudeva, stationed on the car, addressed Karna, saying, "By good luck it is, O son of Radha, that thou rememberest virtue! It is generally seen that they that are mean, when they sink into distress, rail at Providence but never at their own misdeeds...When the Kuru king (Duryodhana), acting under thy counsels, treated Bhimasena in that way with the aid of snakes and poisoned food, whither had this virtue of thine then gone?..."

Or is is that Krishna's words only matter and have to be accepted as truth when he is saying something nice about Karna -- and rest of the time when he is saying something which is not nice enough, he is just bluffing -- saying things just for the sake of it❓