B R Chopra portrayal of Karna with reference to KMG - Page 19

Originally posted by: Cotswolds

By the way... Krishna seems to be conferring great title on everybody..

In shalyaparva, he says shalya is equal or superior to bheeshma, drona and karna.. Its from kmg in shalya parva..

We all know shalya was a second rate warrior.

I dont think we should either accept everything or reject everything of krishna. Citations are supposed to guide us to right conclusions.. They are not to prove our point. (This is a general remark and not intended towards anyone)

I dont see a nexus between krishna praising karna and also reciting all committed sins. Why is it necessary that we accept both or reject both ?

What he said to Arjuna about karna scorecard was just a reminder. Arjuna already knew these things.

I agreed Cotswolds.

Originally posted by: amritat

I agreed Cotswolds.

But u see, while arguing, we tend to be so accurate in following the citations, that we overlook some basic stuff. Besides, such abstract analysis will confuse everyone, n hence we try to follow everything literally. I know there is no reason to accept both or reject both. But if we don't follow some consistency while debating, then people will take up things selectively, as it suits his/her favouritism, which would lead to chaos. I guess, that is y consistency is required, atleast for the sake of the debate. Once, the debate is over, we can all log out, and get back to believing wat we want to. 😉😆

Besides, I have seen this selective/inconsistent beliefs in a new topic, that has gained ground in our Mahabharat forum. And it's about the supposed "righteousness" of the Kauravas, and about the story being altered by the Pandavas. But that is another topic. 😉

Originally posted by: Cotswolds

😆😆 Underlined.. Yup.you are right.😆 I owe great deal to this forum. I had read tidbits of mb and I thought I knew all.. But the people here made me realise how little I knew.. Different arguments,cittations from different versions, inconsistencies, spiritual connotations .. All different views was a great enriching experience.

Only a week left and I am gonna miss everyone soon.. Sorry no relation to topic at hand but feeling emotional..

Really.. I have yet to read that topic about pandavas altering history.😆 I will check it..

Well, no topic has been made on that separately. But in some threads, such opinions can be seen. 😆

I want to share one of my recent experiences. I have a student of 7th standard who is a regular viewer of SPMB but did not read the original epic. I asked him who is his most favorite character in MB. At first he replied, 'Krishna', which made me very pleased as a Krishna devotee. After few moments he thought something & then replied, "No, it's Karna! Krishna is just after him!" I became totally speechless! 😲 If this is the impact of TV shows/novels/movies on our children then how can we teach them the moral values? Ramayan & Mahabharat are unavoidable for building kid's character. If a kid likes Karna more than Lord Krishna then what will it learn from MB?

Also, I have something more to say. OK Karna was very good human being indeed, only one day of his life he made a mistake & that was the day of first dice game. Very nice, even I am ready to forget his all other 'mistake's as he a mere human so it's very natural for him to commit mistakes. I have seen in MB forum that even Ashwaththama's unforgivable crime is being supported by many well read members there. They say that he was never a bad guy but committed some 'mistake' on that day only. OK, nice again. He was a human only, not God, so it's natural for him to do such things. But anyone please please please convince me one thing. Why Yudhisthir can never be forgiven for his only one mistake? He was a mere human too, not God. If Karna & Ashwatthama can be forgiven after their 'mistake's then why can we not forgive Yudhisthir who really committed only one mistake throughout his whole life (let's forget the prayashchitta part)? Is this not an one-sided analysis?

Originally posted by: smrth

A basic fact quietly ignored in this 'praise' contests, is the intent of the Praise! Was he really eulogising the enemy? Was Krishna commemorating Karna's feats on being overjoyed and awed?!

The whole purpose was to caution Arjun for all the level of proficiency- a correct appraisal of enemy's strength and summon best of his own skill. To the extent, he must be ready for even a superior display and raise his standard, again, to the best of his ability. Clearly, a good mentor was preparing his protege with a standard technique- "don't underestimate rival's Strength nor overestimate your own resources."

Contrast this with Karna's misadvises to his friend. Always overconfident, he constantly bragged self might- and underestimated the rivals'. (Though, a somewhat natural fall out of that life- long ambition- to be pronounced best)

The outcome is telling. The former prevailed. The later was eliminated...

But, for us less discerning 'doubters', it's all 'Divine Praise'. It's all, how daunting and 'Best amongst all' was our 'champion of the repressed' Hero. 'Arjun, you are just a fraction! As per your own Guide!!!'🤢

IF you can claim that Krishna's praising for Karna was just to caution Arjuna - one can also say that Karna's sin count for Karna was only to incite Arjuna even further. It is your assumption that Krishna's praise was only to caution Arjuna. Assumptions are after all just a assumption if not backed by proofs.

Karna knew what Arjuna was capable of, he praised him before his battle calling him the foremost of warriors and a warrior who cannot be defeated by the gods, Karna even mentioned that Arjuna is Unslayable by anyone else let alone when he had Krishna as his charioteer. Arjuna too agreed that Karna will exterminate the Pandavas along with their army like a disease from a body.

Originally posted by: Urmila11

I want to share one of my recent experiences. I have a student of 7th standard who is a regular viewer of SPMB but did not read the original epic. I asked him who is his most favorite character in MB. At first he replied, 'Krishna', which made me very pleased as a Krishna devotee. After few moments he thought something & then replied, "No, it's Karna! Krishna is just after him!" I became totally speechless! 😲 If this is the impact of TV shows/novels/movies on our children then how can we teach them the moral values? Ramayan & Mahabharat are unavoidable for building kid's character. If a kid likes Karna more than Lord Krishna then what will it learn from MB?

Also, I have something more to say. OK Karna was very good human being indeed, only one day of his life he made a mistake & that was the day of first dice game. Very nice, even I am ready to forget his all other 'mistake's as he a mere human so it's very natural for him to commit mistakes. I have seen in MB forum that even Ashwaththama's unforgivable crime is being supported by many well read members there. They say that he was never a bad guy but committed some 'mistake' on that day only. OK, nice again. He was a human only, not God, so it's natural for him to do such things. But anyone please please please convince me one thing. Why Yudhisthir can never be forgiven for his only one mistake? He was a mere human too, not God. If Karna & Ashwatthama can be forgiven after their 'mistake's then why can we not forgive Yudhisthir who really committed only one mistake throughout his whole life (let's forget the prayashchitta part)? Is this not an one-sided analysis?

Not many people hate Yudisthira for his one mistake do they?, Yudisthira does not have many haters and he is not a popular character compared to Karna and Krishna.

Krishna is perhaps the most celebrated God in Hindu Mythology, and Karna is probably the most popular character from Mahabharata.( With the exception of Krishna). Some people did not forgive Karna for his crimes and similarly some people did not forgive Yudisthira for his crime - as simple as that. Some people do not account for everyone.

Ashwathama's sin was directing the Brahmashira towards Pandava womenfolks, his killing of Upa-P's was not a sin. Krishna only cursed him for 3,000 years and he probably is not suffering now. He did the crime - got the punishment. Why should we loathe Ashwathama when he already suffered his quota of unbearable punishment.

Originally posted by: Urmila11

I want to share one of my recent experiences. I have a student of 7th
standard who is a regular viewer of SPMB but did not read the original
epic. I asked him who is his most favorite character in MB. At first he
replied, 'Krishna', which made me very pleased as a Krishna devotee.
After few moments he thought something & then replied, "No, it's
Karna! Krishna is just after him!" I became totally speechless! 😲
If this is the impact of TV shows/novels/movies on our children then
how can we teach them the moral values? Ramayan & Mahabharat are
unavoidable for building kid's character. If a kid likes Karna more than
Lord Krishna then what will it learn from MB?

Also, I have
something more to say. OK Karna was very good human being indeed, only
one day of his life he made a mistake & that was the day of first
dice game. Very nice, even I am ready to forget his all other 'mistake's
as he a mere human so it's very natural for him to commit mistakes. I
have seen in MB forum that even Ashwaththama's unforgivable crime is
being supported by many well read members there. They say that he was
never a bad guy but committed some 'mistake' on that day only. OK, nice
again. He was a human only, not God, so it's natural for him to do such
things. But anyone please please please convince me one thing. Why
Yudhisthir can never be forgiven for his only one mistake? He was a mere
human too, not God. If Karna & Ashwatthama can be forgiven after
their 'mistake's then why can we not forgive Yudhisthir who really
committed only one mistake throughout his whole life (let's forget the
prayashchitta part)? Is this not an one-sided analysis?

I know exactly wat u r talking about.
This wrong portrayal of characters is wat I am against.
And it's not just Karna. Even if it is my favourite character Draupadi, I dont want her to be white-washed in places she doesnt need it.Like in the serial, she was initially shown as deprived n abandoned by her father n she saving him from the Lord...wat was the need for all that? Why did they have to show that Draupadi took decision to marry all 5 just to save the other 4 brothers from celibacy...Y not show the truth? Y this whitewashing?
Now after that unnecessary whitewashing, they showed her acting like a vamp in her Swamvar n now as the reason for the war

This wrong portrayal in various novels n serials gives false impression to non-readers.
Same has happener for Karna n the Pandavas as well. It's one thing to interpret n its another thing to deliberately change the plot to whitewash characters.

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

IF you can claim that Krishna's praising for Karna was just to caution Arjuna - one can also say that Karna's sin count for Karna was only to incite Arjuna even further. It is your assumption that Krishna's praise was only to caution Arjuna. Assumptions are after all just a assumption if not backed by proofs.

Originally posted by: smrth

Typical air brush logics! Of which, 'assumption' seems to be a favourite word; 'Facts' browbeaten as assumptions and illusions of logic presented as counter 'facts'! Generally I avoid such vacuous Conversations. Pure waste of time. But today am decoyed. And here is my waste of time;🥱

Simple check of the backdrops: 1) The so called praise was not for subject's consumption (as in a commemorative mien). Underlining high points of the enemy, It was conversed directly to the main target of the 'subject'! To alert the 'target' (Arjun) to pare the 'threat'. Hence the 'intent' is cautionary, and not 'celebrating' (as fan's are trying to paint).

2) On the other hand, the condemning critique was addressed directly to the 'subject'; In witness of all present, and so incisive that subject 'hanged his head down' in shame! Clinical in it's precision, the 'subject' can't utter a word in defence. A meek acceptance of the 'facts'! The final 'facts'- and ironically, in its finality, this condemnation- to an extent- is a refutation of the appearance of 'praise' earlier!!! Such are appearances of the 'fiction' and 'facts', respectively.

End of my rant...and no more response...🤢

You probably would be having a lot of productive work rather than wasting your precious time.

It was clear that Arjuna was not able to triumph on Karna in his last battle, in fact if one reads his battle with Karna profusely - Karna was having an upper-hand for most part of the battle, Karna once fought with Bhima and Arjuna alone, Bhima and Krishna repeatedly advised and taunted ( Bhima ) Arjuna about how Karna is nullifying his celestial weapons and piercing him and killing thousands of warrior. Krishna found it appropirate to infuriate Arjuna by counting Karna's sins. Your so called air talks will be accepted only if you provide proofs. ( I am not even claiming that Krishna only counted Karna's sin to incite Arjuna, my claim is only valid when 'someone else' talks ( in air ) about Krishna praised Arjuna just to make him cautious.)

Incidentally - in CE Krishna's sin count only include the VH.